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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sunnydays on November 28, 2007, at 18:14:11
How do T's hear all this bad stuff from people day in and day out without it affecting them? I don't understand how dealing with me doesn't infect my T. I mean, I guess it's because I'm not as repulsive as I think I am, but it's so hard to believe that.
A lot of this is coming up because my mother was asking me when I was home for Thanksgiving if my T was abusing me, and why would I be emailing a therapist (I accidentally let her see my email inbox one day). And it's totally her issue because she has a history of being sexually abused by therapists in the past. But talking with my T about it freaked me out that he'd hate me or somehow totally agree with her and decide he really didn't want to see me anymore or something.
And I called to tell him I miss him just now. But I wish I had said to call me back because I want to talk to him so much. But I can't help thinking it would be bad to do that even though logically I know he'd be fine with it. But then I just called back and asked if he actually would call me if he got the message tonight. I don't know if he'll get the message tonight or not, he sometimes forgets to check his messages, but maybe he will.
I don't know. I just am having a hard time. I hate how my mom's issues seem to have so much power over me sometimes.
sunnydays
Posted by Muffled on November 28, 2007, at 18:51:51
In reply to How do...? (small abuse trigger), posted by sunnydays on November 28, 2007, at 18:14:11
> How do T's hear all this bad stuff from people day in and day out without it affecting them? I don't understand how dealing with me doesn't infect my T. I mean, I guess it's because I'm not as repulsive as I think I am, but it's so hard to believe that.
*Holy moly, exactly what I said to my T. She says she is careful to protect herself, and that yes, what she does can be very hard, but she takes care of herself and talks to other T's and has her own T. She words it as, comming *alongside*, the clients in their troubles, rather than immersing herself in them.
They also have a different perspective than us too. So I think that makes it different as well.
So my T says I will not contaminate her mind with my stuff. Thats she can take care of herself.
>
> A lot of this is coming up because my mother was asking me when I was home for Thanksgiving if my T was abusing me, and why would I be emailing a therapist (I accidentally let her see my email inbox one day). And it's totally her issue because she has a history of being sexually abused by therapists in the past. But talking with my T about it freaked me out that he'd hate me or somehow totally agree with her and decide he really didn't want to see me anymore or something.*I really think your T probably appreciates your honesty. I think it is important to be honest. I somehow doubt he will be affected by your Moms 'stuff', cuz he knows it HER stuff. He will only care in relation to how it affects you. Your T really seems to be in it for the long haul SD.
>
> And I called to tell him I miss him just now. But I wish I had said to call me back because I want to talk to him so much. But I can't help thinking it would be bad to do that even though logically I know he'd be fine with it. But then I just called back and asked if he actually would call me if he got the message tonight. I don't know if he'll get the message tonight or not, he sometimes forgets to check his messages, but maybe he will.*Maybe he will. Maybe tomorrow. He's still there. You know that. He has stuck with you very well. He's not going away.
>
> I don't know. I just am having a hard time. I hate how my mom's issues seem to have so much power over me sometimes.*yup, stuff like that sucks. But you learning all the time SD, and you will get stronger and more and more able to stand on your own. You'll get there. Just takes some time. This growing business is a lifetime proposition. We grow and change our whole lives!
Life is a journey.
Hope you can relax some SD.
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by DAisym on November 28, 2007, at 19:04:51
In reply to Re: How do...? (small abuse trigger) » sunnydays, posted by Muffled on November 28, 2007, at 18:51:51
A good therapist will have their own supports and will have learned how to be empathetic without getting emeshed. You have a good therapist. It helps to remember this worry when they take vacation - it is a good way to remind yourself why they need to and how important it is.
I know it is still worrisome - I worry about this all the time. I made my therapist promise to tell me if he needs a break from the stories, or sadness or anger or whatever. I also think about myself when I'm trying to help someone. I might really want to help and I care and all of that - but it isn't my pain or struggle so it doesn't effect me the same way. I like "along side" - I think that is a great description.
And I agree with Muffy - I'm sure your therapist wants you to be honest about all your feelings. Of course your mom's stuff gets in the way - isn't that partly why you are in therapy? I've actually told my therapist that there are times I'm afraid of him - when I feel young and small I worry that I will "turn him into" some kind of abuser - either sexually or verbally. He is very reassuring and never gets offended by these kinds of worries or fears.
I'm glad you asked him to call you back. I hope he gets the message tonight.
Posted by sunnydays on November 28, 2007, at 20:29:52
In reply to How do...? (small abuse trigger), posted by sunnydays on November 28, 2007, at 18:14:11
Thank you both. My T did call, but I don't know if it helped. He was asking me what I could do to tolerate the feeling of missing him, to sit with it, and I didn't know. He suggested a couple things, and said we could talk on Friday about more ways to tolerate these feelings and being able to feel more independent and self-reliant and not needing to call him and things, because it doesn't always feel good to me to call him because I worry about bothering him. But that at the same time we need to figure out how to do it so that I stay connected enough so that I don't feel like it's abandonment.
I'll need to tell him on Friday because I couldn't over the phone, but I heard that as, "Don't call me, you're too much for me to deal with, I don't want to hear from you anymore." He asked if there was anything else I wanted to talk about, and I couldn't bring myself to ask if I was going to infect him, but I asked, "Is it ok?" He said, "Is what ok, calling me?" And I said, "Just everything, is everything ok?"
And he said, "Yes, you're doing fine. It's fine to call me, it just might be empowering to find ways to feel more independent when you feel like this. We've just got to keep working. And it's progress that I'm even bringing up the idea of being more independent with you because now it may upset you some, but before it would have just completely shattered you. But you're doing fine. We'll talk on Friday."
So I think he is aware of how what he says affects me, but he's told me before that sometimes he's going to say things that will upset me anyway, because we can't have things we can't talk about or that we avoid. But I was wishing he was more reassuring on the phone.
And then we ended the conversation because he said he was still at work and had to get himself home. And I think he just meant that to be a closing little thing to tell me something about himself because sometimes I like it if I know something about what he's doing, but it felt like I was bothering him even more.
But I am doing much better than I would have in the past, he's right about that. I would have cried the rest of the night, whereas I cried a little bit, but now I just am a little sad and have a big lump in my throat, but otherwise I'm ok.
Why does this have to be so hard?
sunnydays
Posted by Muffled on November 28, 2007, at 21:56:47
In reply to he did call, posted by sunnydays on November 28, 2007, at 20:29:52
*that was interesting what Daisy said:
{I've actually told my therapist that there are times I'm afraid of him - when I feel young and small I worry that I will "turn him into" some kind of abuser - either sexually or verbally. He is very reassuring and never gets offended by these kinds of worries or fears.}*I had never really thot bout that B4, but I have an absolute THING about my T touching me....I'm just not that bad with other people, I don't like it, but its not as big a deal, and when Daisy wrote what she did, she made me realize, its cuz I am UGH vulnerable w/T (YUK), and so I DO feel at risk :-( But T knows I don't like touch, and tries not to, and if she accidentally bumps me, she usu notices, cuz I guess I recoil or something, and she apologizes. I am learning SO much. I am glad you atarted this thread SD.
> Thank you both. My T did call, but I don't know if it helped. He was asking me what I could do to tolerate the feeling of missing him, to sit with it, and I didn't know. He suggested a couple things, and said we could talk on Friday about more ways to tolerate these feelings and being able to feel more independent and self-reliant and not needing to call him and things, because it doesn't always feel good to me to call him because I worry about bothering him. But that at the same time we need to figure out how to do it so that I stay connected enough so that I don't feel like it's abandonment.*wow, good T!
> I'll need to tell him on Friday because I couldn't over the phone, but I heard that as, "Don't call me, you're too much for me to deal with, I don't want to hear from you anymore." He asked if there was anything else I wanted to talk about, and I couldn't bring myself to ask if I was going to infect him, but I asked, "Is it ok?" He said, "Is what ok, calling me?" And I said, "Just everything, is everything ok?"*I have said same thing to T SD. Just asked if we are 'ok'. I have done this lotsa times.Its a good thing to ask.
Also I do it less now, but I used to always twist my T's words around, I can't remember the term she used...but anyways, she started calling me on it. When she said something she figgered I'd twist, she'd say...'what did I say?' or 'what did you hear?', and she would repeat and try her darndest to make it clear....sometimes it worked...sometimes NOT! I need ALOT of reinforcemnet apparently, and fortunately I seem to have this T with unending patience....
It seems you are noticing yourself doing this , so thats GREAT! you ARE moving ahead, YAY!
>
> And he said, "Yes, you're doing fine. It's fine to call me, it just might be empowering to find ways to feel more independent when you feel like this. We've just got to keep working. And it's progress that I'm even bringing up the idea of being more independent with you because now it may upset you some, but before it would have just completely shattered you. But you're doing fine. We'll talk on Friday."*I agree w/your T. He seems a great T.
>
> So I think he is aware of how what he says affects me, but he's told me before that sometimes he's going to say things that will upset me anyway, because we can't have things we can't talk about or that we avoid. But I was wishing he was more reassuring on the phone.*hmmm. Sometimes there is NOTHING my T can say.....I just dunno WHAT it is I am looking for?
>
> And then we ended the conversation because he said he was still at work and had to get himself home. And I think he just meant that to be a closing little thing to tell me something about himself because sometimes I like it if I know something about what he's doing, but it felt like I was bothering him even more.*Sigh, there we are twisting things again!!! I am SO good at that myself!
>
> But I am doing much better than I would have in the past, he's right about that. I would have cried the rest of the night, whereas I cried a little bit, but now I just am a little sad and have a big lump in my throat, but otherwise I'm ok.*GOOD for you SD, that IS progress, HUGE progress. Just give yourself some credit OK?
>
> Why does this have to be so hard?*yeah.....I hear ya.
I'm glad you posted. Helps me too.
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by Muffled on November 28, 2007, at 22:42:24
In reply to Re: he did call(( T )) » sunnydays, posted by Muffled on November 28, 2007, at 21:56:47
So my T said in response to an email, that yes she got it and would reply tomorrow(which is today...)
I DID send another w/more info, and in it I wanted her to phone and set an appt.
So she phoned and set appt. But no attempt to talk. So I thot,mebbeshe waiting to put it in email....
But no email yet.....its 8:40 pm......
But she might be doing it right now...
Or mebbe not at all cuz she figgers it not needed,
but she had SAID she would....and I waiting....
sigh...
see!
So its SO NOT just you SD!
Me too!
Take care,
M
Posted by Daisym on November 28, 2007, at 23:24:08
In reply to Just FYI SD... » Muffled, posted by Muffled on November 28, 2007, at 22:42:24
Some things are just plain hard. How do we stay attached and yet hold things independently? It would have been easier to figure this out when we were 3 or 5 or 8.
I told my therapist today that I wasn't calling him again because I couldn't bear the risk of him not calling me back. He said, "have I ever not called back? At least by the next day?" Well...no - but still...It is such an ebb and flow - I know he is there for me and I'm afraid to let him be. I don't want to "use him up." He tells me all the time that this comes from my mother not seeing my pain and from her constant refrain of "do it yourself - you are smart enough, strong enough, etc." And she valued it when I didn't need her. My therapist says, "I'm not your mother!" Yes...but...still...
Today he told me to take him with me again. It helps to know that he is willing to give up a small piece of himself to me so that I can feel safer. And I'm allowed to leave pieces of myself there. Not all of the parts anymore, but some.
Progress - I'm glad you see yours. Painful and slow maybe, but still progress.
You see him Friday. It isn't too far away. Hang in there.
Posted by sunnydays on November 28, 2007, at 23:38:46
In reply to Re: Just FYI SD..., posted by Daisym on November 28, 2007, at 23:24:08
I think you are me Daisy. I just promised my therapist in an email that I will never call or email him again, and that I will make myself not miss him anymore. I realized I'm just like my mother. I love her, but I want her to leave me alone. I want to take care of myself, but I still need her. And that's exactly how she feels towards me. And so I feel awful because I can't let myself be like her.
I hate this.
sunnydays
Posted by Muffled on November 29, 2007, at 0:07:45
In reply to no words..., posted by sunnydays on November 28, 2007, at 23:38:46
well I re emailed T and she DID mail back then.
She said I can call her tomorrow.
I mailed back no, don't need to call.
I'm gonna wanto, but I won't.
But mebbe I should, cuz what I say to YOU SD, is mebbe you call OK? If you need to. Maybe you not need to? But if you say you can't then maybe you REALLY want to then.....but if you give yourself permission, then maybe it becomes less urgent.
Does this make sense?
My best tool is distraction.
Find ways to distract myself.
Maybe you could make list of TRUE good things T has said, and read them when you get scared.You can take them in and have T reaffirm them at regular intervals...
these are my thots.
I am distracting.
Hope you feel better SD.
M
Posted by rskontos on November 29, 2007, at 10:49:51
In reply to How do...? (small abuse trigger), posted by sunnydays on November 28, 2007, at 18:14:11
Sunnyd, I think you need to tell your mom you appreciate her concern but that this is your T and your relationship and not her concern. Somewhere I remember a statement about not making everyone pay for just one person's mistake. Your mom is making you, your T pay for the bad stuff her T did to her. Which I am not dismissing, it was a terrible thing. But for her to inflict it and the pain on you is too make you a part of her stuff. Does that make sense. I might be wrong just how it strike me when I read your post again for like the third time. And she is causing trouble with your T that you might not have had if she had just kept her thoughts to herself and discussed with her T. I mean as a parent myself I would not put my issues on my daughter. she was concerned but how far should one go. It was an email. Not something she witnessed. I think you need to ask your T for help in setting boundaries with your mom. She needs to respect your privacy as much as she would want you to respect hers. You have enough to deal with and she needs not to cause more for pain for you. As a mom I am sorry she did that to you. (((((((((((Sunnydays))))))))))) here is the mom hug she should have given you not more pain. But all moms can make mistakes. Ask your T to help with that instead of letting it cause problems for you guys.
rk
I have a song for you too. It helps me and my mom issues. It is by Kelly Clarkson, Because of YOU. I think it is about parental abuse. It was written by her. You have to see the words. I think most people think it is about love. But when you see the words you might think I am right.
Take care of yourself.
Posted by rskontos on November 29, 2007, at 10:59:20
In reply to Re: How do...? (small abuse trigger), posted by rskontos on November 29, 2007, at 10:49:51
Posted by sunnydays on November 29, 2007, at 11:37:53
In reply to Re: How do...? (small abuse trigger), posted by rskontos on November 29, 2007, at 10:49:51
Hi,
Thanks. Yes, my T and I are slowly but surely working on boundaries. The problem is that I still want her to be the perfect mother and imagine if I just do the right thing, she will be. So the boundaries are very hard for me to set. But I'm making teeny tiny bits of progress.And I LOVE the song by Kelly Clarkson. Have you seen the music video? It might be a little bit triggering, but it's on YouTube and I watch it over and over sometimes. I love it.
sunnydays
Posted by rskontos on November 29, 2007, at 12:03:56
In reply to Re: How do...? (small abuse trigger) » rskontos, posted by sunnydays on November 29, 2007, at 11:37:53
I guess for me it is easier as my mom is not of this earth. I dont mean to be flippant but the boundaries are easier. I will go and see the video now. Hopefully your T can help so that your mom doesn't cause all this pain when you are trying to make progress. I think you are doing great though!!!!
I am trying to set boundaries with my son and so I know how hard they are. My T says me and my H aren't good with boundaries. But she admits she had trouble too so not to think she is perfect she wasn't as a parent either.
I think if you read my other long post with my other song, small baby steps are ok for straightening things out. That is what we are trying to do.
Gone now to watch the video....take care and thanks
rk
Posted by sunnydays on November 29, 2007, at 22:03:24
In reply to Re: How do...? (small abuse trigger), posted by rskontos on November 29, 2007, at 12:03:56
Sad.
Again.Can't wait to see T tomorrow.
What he said on the phone really hurt my feelings, deeper than I ever would have thought. And all he said was we'd work on me being more independent.
I am such an idiot. I twist everything the wrong way around.
So sad.
Miss him.sunnydays
Posted by Muffled on November 29, 2007, at 22:24:57
In reply to Sad, posted by sunnydays on November 29, 2007, at 22:03:24
Hey you! If you an idiot.....so am I!
But I don't think your an idiot.
I think you a nice person.
Its hard to let go.
Its hard to loosen our grip when we find something safe.
And sometimes I feel like I need T SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much, and sometimes not so much. Nowadays, its much better. But didn't used to be.
But there is such FREEDOM in not always needing to cling. So don't worry, cling is OK, but remember, when you ready to cling less, its not so bad, feels good.
But when you ready.
Your T is nice.
He wants you to be able to feel good.
You see him soon, that is good.
M
Posted by sunnydays on November 30, 2007, at 16:57:25
In reply to Sad, posted by sunnydays on November 29, 2007, at 22:03:24
I saw T today. Unfortunately, I don't know how much it helped. He didn't say what I wanted to hear which was, "Of course you're nothing like your mom." He said that everyone's like their parents to some degree. And that we can work on identifying ways that I'm like my mother that I don't like and ways to change that.
And I was trying to get at something, and he guessed it and phrased it exactly what I was wondering, which was, "Do you think that some of your missing me is like when your mom is missing you and you see it as a manipulation? Do you ever think your missing me is a manipulation?"
And I said not most of the time but sometimes I wonder, and he said that it's not a bad thing (like I think it is - I see it as the worst possible thing in the world), it's something people do to cope with feelings they're having, that it's not something people are conscious of when they do it, etc. But he didn't disagree and say it never was a manipulation for me.
And I guess I have to face the reality that sometimes it probably is a manipulation. And that maybe I'm not who I hoped I was.
And I emailed my T afterwards and said, "I want reassurance," even though I did get lots of reassurance at the end of the session. And he hasn't emailed me back. And he probably won't at this point since maybe he left work already and he doesn't check his email at home. And that makes me sad because it probably means that he doesn't think it's good for me to always give me reassurance when I want it. And that makes me sad.
sunnydays
Posted by antigua3 on November 30, 2007, at 19:09:54
In reply to Not much help, posted by sunnydays on November 30, 2007, at 16:57:25
I get plenty of reassurance from my T, so I know I'm very lucky, but I'm really struggling with this with my pdoc now. It's a real power struggle, but I know it's part of the transference. Not sure he knows it, but I know it.
thanks for giving me the words to explain. I think I'll call him,
antigua
Posted by Muffled on December 1, 2007, at 14:55:36
In reply to Re: Not much help » sunnydays, posted by antigua3 on November 30, 2007, at 19:09:54
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2007, at 21:11:25
In reply to Not much help, posted by sunnydays on November 30, 2007, at 16:57:25
From what you've said about him, I'm thinking that he has your best interests in mind. That doesn't always mean that we'll *feel* good. I'm guessing he's seeing you in pain and struggling.
I don't think he means to be negative about you, and I'm sure he likes you as a person.
FWIW, I think most behavior is manipulative in the sense you're meaning it. Aren't babies born with those soft curves and big eyes to elicit caring and nurturing responses from those around us? See? It's inborn. People who achieve might be looking for approval and caring. People who miss others may be looking not to be left. People who are caring might be looking to get warmth from the people they care for. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting a certain response and trying to get it. But there might be room in there to occasionally evaluate our efforts to see if they're in our best interests and if they're actually eliciting the result we want. Not just the direct result, but the overall life result. I think it's Linehan who says that borderlines don't manipulate more often than others, they're just not as good at it. I'm not saying you're borderline of course. I just like the theory on manipulation.
It's possible that your mother may have handed on a few of her methods, and a lack of others. Or maybe she didn't. I really have no way to know. But even if it's true, it doesn't say anything about your character, just your education to date in matters emotional. And that's why we're in therapy, right?
Posted by sunnydays on December 3, 2007, at 22:26:31
In reply to Re: Not much help » sunnydays, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2007, at 21:11:25
Thank you so much Dinah. I may print out your post and frame it. A much-needed change in perspective for me on a day when I emailed my therapist two or three times and called him because I was so panicked that he didn't answer my emails and was either sick and dying or mad at me. Turns out neither was the case. But something still feels wrong to me, wanting and needing someone so much. My T said to me when I said I felt dumb, "Nothing about wanting assurance is dumb, it's the little girl part reaching out." I have to try to remember that.
sunnydays
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