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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on October 2, 2007, at 13:11:02
My therapist said something recently that T3 also said. That I needed to learn to tolerate pain, and not try to escape it. I don't recall the context with T3, I've blocked most of that out. But with my therapist it was in regard to my binging in various areas.
I just didn't get it and told him so. They seemed to be viewing pain as a static thing. But it's not. Once the neurochemicals start cascading, they just don't stop. Tolerating it doesn't help. Being overstimulated causes each small stimulus (noise, touch, light, stressful events) to cause more and more adrenaline and cortisol or whatever to come out and it snowballs out of control. Then the sleep disruption adds to the trouble, etc. Tolerating it isn't going to stop it from escalating. And at some point it becomes intolerable. I guess eventually my adrenal gland would give up, exhausted. But when? Weeks?
At first my therapist said something about being able to tolerate this much pain as opposed to that much pain, so the extra is less to deal with. But I told him I still didn't understand.
So he switched his course and said that he thought I was unwilling to tolerate the pain involved in making the practical changes that would stop this pathological pain, and stop the cascade of chemicals. That because I was afraid of moving, I was bringing a different type of pain down on myself. And so I needed to be willing to tolerate this sort of pain and anxiety.
Now this I can understand, and even agree with. I usually do refuse to make decisions for fear that the devil I don't know will be way worse than the one I do know. That's something I can learn to try to tolerate. And it's far more reasonable and less all encompassing than "you need to tolerate pain better."
Posted by seldomseen on October 2, 2007, at 13:39:19
In reply to Ok, this I can understand., posted by Dinah on October 2, 2007, at 13:11:02
I think what they are talking about isn't just you being able to "suck it up" - man am I stuck on that or what? - but rather a mind set to deal with pain.
Kind of like "yeah, this sucks, but let's go on anyway".
I've found that whether it's physical pain or emotional pain, that fighting against it or doing anything in our power to get rid of it is what gets us into trouble. It's that desire to be rid of it that, although it is all too human, is what causes stress. Sometimes, you just have to relax against the pain, let it be there, and live your life anyway.
Emotional pain I'm not sure is something that you can ever be free from or fully move on from (how's that for your cheer up for the day?) but it is something that you can be free in and move with. Does that make any sense?
Seldom.
Posted by Dinah on October 2, 2007, at 13:57:39
In reply to Re: Ok, this I can understand., posted by seldomseen on October 2, 2007, at 13:39:19
I suppose so...
But what about the fact that it snowballs and cascades? I can try to stoically accept anxiety or overstimulation. But it's a moving target. Accepting it doesn't stop the chain of events.
I say I'm a hypochondriac and it's true. But once I understand a certain type of pain, and its inevitability, I can bear it ok. It's kind of like accepting the course of a cold. My throat's going to hurt, then in a day my nose will run, then a few days of stuffiness then a cough, then it's over.
But this is more like accepting a sore throat when letting it stick around is going to lead to a full body strep infection. Sometimes it's not good to endure pain. Sometimes you need to slap some antibiotic on it.
Posted by Dinah on October 2, 2007, at 14:13:55
In reply to Re: Ok, this I can understand. » seldomseen, posted by Dinah on October 2, 2007, at 13:57:39
I suppose what my therapist is saying is that yes, we have to nip it in the bud before it blooms uncontrollably. But that I need to do it by enduring the pain of doing what must be done instead of by distracting in unhealthy ways.
Posted by muffled on October 2, 2007, at 22:36:16
In reply to Re: Ok, this I can understand., posted by Dinah on October 2, 2007, at 14:13:55
> I suppose what my therapist is saying is that yes, we have to nip it in the bud before it blooms uncontrollably. But that I need to do it by enduring the pain of doing what must be done instead of by distracting in unhealthy ways.
**That sound good...
I dunno if this has got to do with anything.
But when I used to Sinjure alot, it was to do with emotions building and building and building up. Until it got to the point where SI was inevitable, cuz I HAD to do something or they would just keep comming back abd getting worse.
Now....I'm not sure...I still struggle with bad feelings, but I'm not sure yet...hmmm...but anyhow, that 'inevitable' thing seems to be less of an issue somehow. I CAN bear the feelings, and I CAN go onward and function. Thats one of the things my T said in her message, that you just goto keep going....
I guess I MUST do more self soothing stuff, like be around people even when I don't want to be. Like just walking away and taking a break when a project I am working on is starting to overwhelm me. Like being more honest with people some about how I feel, insteada just sayinh 'I'm fine'.(and I GOTTA say, people are SO nice!!! I had no idea??!!!)
So I guess I have learned more than I even realize.
So i dunno if this is unrelated drivel.
Or if I saying it right.
But this is what I was thinking.
Sounds like you doing so good work in T.
Take good care.
Muffled
Posted by seldomseen on October 3, 2007, at 3:07:05
In reply to Re: Ok, this I can understand. » seldomseen, posted by Dinah on October 2, 2007, at 13:57:39
I'm not at all sure that is has to snowball or cascade.
I think the key here, and perhaps what your therapists are getting at, is that it takes confidence to know, even if you think that you are in a downward spiral, that you can handle it without extreme measures to alleviate the pain.
I think it is about trusting yourself and your own strength and less about white-knuckling it through - although you may have to do just that for a little while.
But each time you make it, you get a little better at it.
It seems like life ebbs and flows. For some people (like me) that ebb and flow is a lot more dramatic than for others. It's a burden, but it can be carried.
Seldom.
Posted by Dinah on October 3, 2007, at 7:02:17
In reply to Re: Ok, this I can understand. » Dinah, posted by seldomseen on October 3, 2007, at 3:07:05
I think maybe we're talking apples and oranges.
Last night I felt really tearful. There was a time when that would upset me, but now I know that even though I think I'll feel that way forever, I actually won't. This too shall pass.
I'm talking about something different.
But maybe I'm the only one who feels that way, so never mind.
Posted by seldomseen on October 3, 2007, at 7:11:41
In reply to Re: Ok, this I can understand., posted by Dinah on October 3, 2007, at 7:02:17
I can be so dense sometimes and I'm sorry I misunderstood what is happening Dinah.
I would like to understand better what is going on though.
If you would like to talk about this further I promise that I will do less talking and more listening.Seldom.
Posted by Dinah on October 3, 2007, at 8:23:05
In reply to Re: Ok, this I can understand. » Dinah, posted by seldomseen on October 3, 2007, at 7:11:41
You aren't dense, and no need to apologize.
It doesn't really matter. :)
Thanks, seldomseen.
Posted by muffled on October 3, 2007, at 11:07:42
In reply to Re: Ok, this I can understand. » seldomseen, posted by Dinah on October 3, 2007, at 8:23:05
Well if it matters to Dinah, then it matters to me.
Be gentle with yourself.
Thats what my T said in her message, three words of the week. Be kind to myself, be gentle, and just keep going...
Dinah, I dunno wassup w/you, but you are well liked here and we are always availabel and in fact happy to listen to what you goto say OK?
Take care,
M
Posted by Dinah on October 3, 2007, at 12:38:48
In reply to Re: Ok, this I can understand., posted by muffled on October 3, 2007, at 11:07:42
I didn't mean it in any bad or angry way, Muffled. Merely that it isn't important enough to explain. And I'm not sure of my ability to explain either.
I understand it, and my therapist is glad he helped me understand it.
That's enough.
Posted by jane d on October 6, 2007, at 0:25:31
In reply to Ok, this I can understand., posted by Dinah on October 2, 2007, at 13:11:02
> My therapist said something recently that T3 also said. That I needed to learn to tolerate pain, and not try to escape it. I don't recall the context with T3, I've blocked most of that out. But with my therapist it was in regard to my binging in various areas.
>
> I just didn't get it and told him so. They seemed to be viewing pain as a static thing. But it's not. Once the neurochemicals start cascading, they just don't stop. Tolerating it doesn't help. Being overstimulated causes each small stimulus (noise, touch, light, stressful events) to cause more and more adrenaline and cortisol or whatever to come out and it snowballs out of control. Then the sleep disruption adds to the trouble, etc. Tolerating it isn't going to stop it from escalating. And at some point it becomes intolerable. I guess eventually my adrenal gland would give up, exhausted. But when? Weeks?
>
> At first my therapist said something about being able to tolerate this much pain as opposed to that much pain, so the extra is less to deal with. But I told him I still didn't understand.
>
> So he switched his course and said that he thought I was unwilling to tolerate the pain involved in making the practical changes that would stop this pathological pain, and stop the cascade of chemicals. That because I was afraid of moving, I was bringing a different type of pain down on myself. And so I needed to be willing to tolerate this sort of pain and anxiety.
>
> Now this I can understand, and even agree with. I usually do refuse to make decisions for fear that the devil I don't know will be way worse than the one I do know. That's something I can learn to try to tolerate. And it's far more reasonable and less all encompassing than "you need to tolerate pain better."I think I understand!
I like the escalating cascade image. I think it makes your experience of overstimulation very clear. I may also borrow it. It should also work as an analogy to explain my own experience with spiraling emotions. In both cases I think tolerating something that is endlessly getting worse would is nuts. And that's the way I've always heard "tolerate pain" used.
I like your therapist's clarification. I wonder if that's what other therapists really mean? (somehow I suspect not - I think it is just repeated ritually as an incantation by many).
Jane
Posted by Dinah on October 6, 2007, at 9:50:10
In reply to Re: Ok, THIS I THINK I understand. » Dinah, posted by jane d on October 6, 2007, at 0:25:31
Hi Jane :)
Actually I think mine used it as a ritual incantation himself, before he realized that I had a point. Or that he wasn't going to get through to me that way. One of the two.
So then he switched it to something that's actually more in line with what he usually tells me in non-therapistspeak.
I like that about my therapist.
(It's really good to see you here.)
Posted by zenhussy on October 6, 2007, at 19:45:58
In reply to Re: Ok, THIS I THINK I understand. » Dinah, posted by jane d on October 6, 2007, at 0:25:31
This is the end of the thread.
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