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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by B2chica on July 26, 2007, at 9:12:27
forgot to mention in my long post above that my T mentioned EMDR to me. and it's funny that someone not too long ago was asking about this. and i know some of you have used this. i was wondering if there are any specifically good websites that i can go to to learn more about EMDR?
and typically do your T's do this or do you need to go to someone else?thnx.
b2c.
Posted by antigua3 on July 26, 2007, at 9:17:59
In reply to EMDR links?, posted by B2chica on July 26, 2007, at 9:12:27
I did this for almost a year(?) and then did it again last year. Both times I had to use someone other than my T, which didn't work well for me. If she had been there, it would have worked so much better. I'd waste T time on telling her what happened.
things got too complicated with having more than one T and EMDR just became ineffective for me. But in the beginning, it worked very well.
It's tough though, at least it was for me, but I always had trouble believing what came up, whether it was true or not. But I sure learned a lot.
So be careful if you choose this.
good luck,
antigua
Posted by B2chica on July 26, 2007, at 10:00:44
In reply to Re: EMDR links?, posted by antigua3 on July 26, 2007, at 9:17:59
hey Antigua...thanks for responding.. have a couple more questions if you don't mind answering?
> It's tough though, at least it was for me, but I always had trouble believing what came up, whether it was true or not. But I sure learned a lot.
so is it like a type of hypnosis?? what do you mean things 'come up'...i don't like surprises... i guess i thought it was just an easier way to talk about issues that you 'plan' to talk about anyway???
does it provoke flashbacks? new memories?
do you have to close your eyes? or are the open?are the sessions close together? like a couple a week? once/week????
how long do you "do" emdr? i guess i'm wondering if it is just a different way to do therapy or in addition to thearpy. you kinda mentioned doing both? i think?
sorry for the 20 questions. anyone free to answer and give examples of experience.
THank YOU.
b2c.
Posted by slugdoo on July 26, 2007, at 10:24:52
In reply to Re: EMDR links?, posted by B2chica on July 26, 2007, at 10:00:44
Hi B2, I have a lot I can tell you but I gotta get to yoga. But a good info site would be EMDR.com . My T has been doing it for over 10 years and he is a level 2 . It isn't hynosis tough, you are totally aware doing the whole process. I will tell you more when I get back or if you have any questions. My latest posts have been about EMDR. Normally you focus on your worst memory and normally that is what is processed. But with me, who had numerous tramatic things happen over my entire childhood, the memory we focused on wasn't the worst one because other stuff that I surpressed came out. But my T has done it for over 200 people and that only happened to me and one other person, so it is rare. But anyways I will tell ya more when I get back.
Posted by B2chica on July 26, 2007, at 10:42:29
In reply to Re: EMDR links? » B2chica, posted by slugdoo on July 26, 2007, at 10:24:52
thanks sd..sluggy.?? :)
i guess it's scary that you're awake and you can prompt new (surpressed) memories. and i must say, i have several that are my "worst". so how do you choose?
but i did mention some other questions just above, so when you get back. let me know about a "typical session" . like what they do, etc.
thanks sluggy.
Posted by antigua3 on July 26, 2007, at 11:37:03
In reply to Re: EMDR links?, posted by B2chica on July 26, 2007, at 10:00:44
Remember, as they say, your mileage may vary and others will have different experiences. This is just mine
>
> so is it like a type of hypnosis?? what do you mean things 'come up'...i don't like surprises... i guess i thought it was just an easier way to talk about issues that you 'plan' to talk about anyway???No it isn't like hypnosis at all (I've tried that too). You are totally focused and aware. both my Ts used a light-type machine where thelights blinked from one end horizontally to the other. I was to focus on the path of the light, back and forth, and the Ts would adjust the speed of the light, depending on how I was doing(sometimes I'd tell them it was too slow). So your eyes go back and forth and you concentrate on a specific memory.
>
> does it provoke flashbacks? new memories?
It did for me and they were not pleasant. Sometimes the memories would come up later in the day, or the next day.
>
> do you have to close your eyes? or are the open?
Always open, because you have to follow the light (some Ts use their hands). It's following from your peripheral vision all the way on your left to all the way on your right and back again.
>
> are the sessions close together? like a couple a week? once/week????
I went once a week.
>
> how long do you "do" emdr? i guess i'm wondering if it is just a different way to do therapy or in addition to thearpy. you kinda mentioned doing both? i think?I did it in addition to my talk therapy. I was stuck and wanted to release memories, but it didn't always work that way.
Sometimes it was just great. The idea was to work through the memory with the EMDR and feel like you've passed through it when you're finished. I felt enormous relief sometimes.An important thing for me was that the T had me establish a very safe place in my mind (or real life) that I could go to when the feelings became too intense. It was like a lot of pushing and pulling, but the T always put me back in the safe spot before we finished, and we often locked up what was too much for me in a box that I would agree not to open until I saw my T.
The most important thing I learned was that I had more than one abuser. Not exactly my intentions going in.
But I guess I gave up on it. I became ambivalent about it, and actually was probably getting close to some really scary things when I bailed. I didn't trust my EMDR T enough, even though she was actually the first T I ever saw years ago and referred me to my present T. (It was one of those insurance things where she could only see me six times). I just didn't want to connect to her, it was too difficult w/my other T.
So if your T does it, that's the best.
Good luck,
antigua
.
Posted by B2chica on July 26, 2007, at 11:48:56
In reply to Re: EMDR links?, posted by antigua3 on July 26, 2007, at 11:37:03
THANK YOU SO MUCH Antigua.
this is exactly the kind of info i needed.honestly it sounds pretty scary to me. even the light thing kinda freaks me out a bit. but i think if my T does it...well, it might be more of a consideration for me. if she doesn't, well i think i'll put that idea on the back burner for now.
thanks again.
Posted by slugdoo on July 26, 2007, at 13:17:26
In reply to Re: EMDR links? » slugdoo, posted by B2chica on July 26, 2007, at 10:42:29
Okay I am back from yoga now. I just read a great book on EMDR I got from the library and I have read most of them out there. But it is called Transforming Trauma EMDR by Laurel Parnell, Ph.D.
If you look this book on Amazon, you can read the first chapter which talks about her experiece as a patient. This book was so good I read it cover to cover in one day. She talkes about her experieces as being a patient and her experiences using it on her own clients.There are many ways to do the bi-lateral movements. Most use their fingers, but some use a lighted bar, some use head phones and do "ear movents from left ear to right". They can even do it for blind people by tapping on their knees. It is great that there are many methods because some child are really young or some have disabliities and such.
Most people know their worst memories and when you start your session you focus on ususally the worst one. You think about the worst memory, the sounds, smells, feelings you felt at the time, for me it is like "reliving it". Now that is the tough part, but it only lasts for a couple of minutes because you will get results rather quickey so the tough part doesn't last long.
They say when you have something tragic happen to you , your brain "freezes" the event and doesn't contine to process it. That is why war vetrans have flash backs, and nightmares and are triggered very easily back into the war, even it it was decades ago. Well the eye movements work a lot like REM sleep, it unblocks the memory, and alows you to process it fully to a manageable state. You will never forget the memory, but the emotional intensisity of the feeling will disapate and you will not be as upset or emotional when you recall the memory. So you will find that you are triggered less often because you "feelings" about what happened to you, are less intense. Then the negative feelings that you ususally get from what happened to you, ex. It was my fault, will be replaced by a more rational believe, ex. "I was too young to do anything about it". or "i really wasn't a bad child, it was X who was the bad one". Then they do eyemovents with you thinking of the new belief that goes along with that tragic memory.
Now what is really neat is that when you choose the worst memory, and focus on that doing the EMDR, it also works sometimes on other memories that are less intense at the same time. My T says it is like unclogging the major clog, a lot of little clogs go right along with it down the drain. So sometimes everything can be cleared up in only a few sessions, but really there is no way to really know how many session it will take. One thing is if you don't focus on the worst memory, it will get take you there, like it did for me. Sometimes you forget things, kinda like your session, it was your mother, who upset you because she didnt' protect you. That might have come up if you were focusing on the tramatic event you had. EMDR isn't for recoving memories, it is mostly for dealing with the memories you have. Most people know their worst memory. But for someone like me who has had systematic ritual abuse all my childhood, there were a lot of stuff I surpressed so I don't remember all the worst stuff, so other stuff come out that was worse than the worst memory I focused on.
One of my professiors in school, also uses EMDR too, and he talked about a session where (not his client) was even too fearful to be in the room alone with him, well her T went along with her to the appointment. So I guess that might be an option if your T doesn't do it herself, and that would be too tramatic to do that with someone new..
Now after you do the process, you should feel a lot better afterwards, in most cases, but your brain still continues to process it even severaly hours after the session. It is exhausting, really, so you need to make sure you don't have anything too important to do afterwards.
I posted about me doing EMDR for the first time about 2 years ago on this site. It was scary for me because I had atypical reactions.
Now if it isn't your T who does this, the other therapist will want to get to know you some. Will also want to make sure you have a safe place to go if you need to.
It is really cool because if they have to stop a session before you can fully reprocess a memory, they might do EMDR while you are thinking of your safe place. And it really calms you down, it was amzing really .
It was the cataylst for me in therapy 2 years ago. Now I found out I need some more EMDR. I am scared, I go in 1 1/2 weeks. I have EMDR one day and the next day I am doing talk therapy with my T to talk about what happened. 'Did I answer your questions or do you have more?
Posted by B2chica on July 26, 2007, at 13:35:32
In reply to Re: EMDR links?, posted by slugdoo on July 26, 2007, at 13:17:26
wow sluggy, that was Great info!
i couldn't have found better information..i think i am going to take a look at that book also. but your descriptions were really really helpful.this sounds pretty effective...but honestly it's scaring me a little more and more. i think mostly because i'm scared of 'dealing' with it face to face. also, well it would be a long road and an $$ one too...if only the timing was different.
well, i'm not sure.but your info was really helpful. thank you very much.
b2c.
Posted by slugdoo on July 26, 2007, at 13:54:32
In reply to Re: EMDR links?, posted by B2chica on July 26, 2007, at 13:35:32
I am glad i could help, I have been feeling rather useless around here lately.
The thing it that it IS scary. I spent my whole life pretending that it really didn't happen, because I didn't want to be "damaged". Well in the process it takes away your natural defenses that you might have built up to "not feel" what happened or to belive it didn't happen at all.
Posted by antigua3 on July 26, 2007, at 15:03:11
In reply to Re: EMDR links? » B2chica, posted by slugdoo on July 26, 2007, at 13:54:32
One thing you said caught my attention:
> I spent my whole life pretending that it really didn't happen, because I didn't want to be "damaged". Well in the process it takes away your natural defenses that you might have built up to "not feel" what happened or to belive it didn't happen at all.
>
I'm so twisted that I doubted what came up in EMDR, even though I knew the parts that felt "right" had to be true. True or not true became too important to me; was the False Recovery Movement right? I've wrestled with this so much, of how could these be really memories, yada, yada. I know I was just psyching myself out and using my denial to the nth degress, but it was still troubling for me.thanks for all that info.
antigua
Posted by slugdoo on July 26, 2007, at 16:30:47
In reply to Re: EMDR links? » slugdoo, posted by antigua3 on July 26, 2007, at 15:03:11
I understand about the false memories thing. FOr me the memomories were real ones, I remember them well , when I un-forgot them. I don't know if that makes any sense. But I knew the memoires happened, they had all the scenses involved and all the stuff that came up was things I did know about, nothing was a surprise. I just simply forgot the stuff, I am not sure how, but I did. Since they were tramatic stuff, I was told I disassociated some them while they happened. But I do clearly remember them when I am reminded of them. And then again, it isnt' my T who is telling me this, it is my "flashbulb" memories. I can see it exacly like it happened, like a movie, that came up with all the emotions and scenses attached to it. So I guess what I am remembering could actually be a flashback. hmmmm.... I guess that is what I remember and it is like reliving them over again. But thankfully this time there is some relief.
Clear as mud? lol
Posted by slugdoo on July 26, 2007, at 16:36:25
In reply to Re: EMDR links?, posted by slugdoo on July 26, 2007, at 16:30:47
Posted by antigua3 on July 26, 2007, at 18:52:23
In reply to Re: EMDR links?, posted by slugdoo on July 26, 2007, at 16:30:47
I know what you mean. I could feel the events as if it were right there, which made them hard to ignore. I know I disassociated to survive, I floated right up to the ceiling to detatch from my body and block the experience, the sounds, pain, smells, etc. Yes, disgusting and hard to ignore.
But yesterday, after T, I had a thought about being chased through the woods and being held down by a group of boys, one of whom I think was my oldest brother. But is that real? I just don't know.
antigua
Posted by slugdoo on July 26, 2007, at 20:11:02
In reply to Re: EMDR links?, posted by antigua3 on July 26, 2007, at 18:52:23
One thing my T has said that really helps I think, is that whether the memory is real or not does not really effect the way he would work with you. If you believe it is true, it doesn't matter if it is or not, they still have to work on why we are feeling what we are.
Was this thought during EMDR or after? If it was, I would assume it probably was real. Do you remember any of it?
Posted by OzLand on July 26, 2007, at 21:53:21
In reply to EMDR links?, posted by B2chica on July 26, 2007, at 9:12:27
My understanding from the long-term research is that it works in the short-run but then person may need to do it again later. It does not appear to last. I kind of liken it to ECT that may work in the short-run, but unless one goes on meds or does continuation ECT, then the effects wear off.
OzLand
Posted by slugdoo on July 27, 2007, at 6:08:02
In reply to Re: EMDR links? » B2chica, posted by OzLand on July 26, 2007, at 21:53:21
> My understanding from the long-term research is that it works in the short-run but then person may need to do it again later. It does not appear to last. I kind of liken it to ECT that may work in the short-run, but unless one goes on meds or does continuation ECT, then the effects wear off.
>
> OzLandCould you point me to the direction where to find the long term research you are talking about. All the research I have read about it,actually journals, books, different T's and profs, tells the exact opposite story, that it is longterm.
Posted by slugdoo on July 27, 2007, at 6:17:42
In reply to Re: EMDR links?, posted by slugdoo on July 27, 2007, at 6:08:02
Also was this research done with qualified people who went through the actual training for EMDR by Shapiro?
There is some research done that used T's who are not trained the proper way, who only read Sapiro's book , and not went through the training. The clients did not have very good results who didn't have a qualified EMDR specialist.
It is very important to go to someone who is qualified with the actually training. They will have a certificate. Perferably with level 2 training.
The sucess rate of EMDR can be very threatening to T's and psychitrists because it works so well that clients won't need them as much in the future and therapy takes less time in most cases.
Posted by OzLand on July 28, 2007, at 0:10:18
In reply to this post and the one above of ozland, posted by slugdoo on July 27, 2007, at 6:17:42
I could swear I posted a response, but now it is not there. I don't know what happened. What I sadi was that Menninger's had the found come and teach people. Menninger's has been ranked in the top 10 of psychiatric facilities for years. They did not use it, and I never learned it when I trained there, but I know from my alumni newsletters that though they still use it at times, their research suggests that it does not last.
Posted by slugdoo on July 28, 2007, at 10:01:42
In reply to Re: this post and the one above of ozland » slugdoo, posted by OzLand on July 28, 2007, at 0:10:18
I am not sure how long ago you were in school, but EMDR is fairly new compaired to the older standards of treating especially PTSD. The APA had approved it for treating it and if I remember right, it is more successful than standard "desensization" such as flooding. Current research overwhelmingly shows it is very effective and it appears it is long lasting. Now keep in mind that EMDR is under 20 years old.
Now some of the controversary which shows EMDR as not effective came from studies where the EMDR treater wasn't trained in it, just read the book. There are some T"s who haven't been trained who just read the book and are practicing it. That is kinda scarey concedering how powerful EMDR can be. That why it is so important to find out if they have been trained.EMDR works on war vets who have been suffering for decades from PTSD. Most of the documented cases, showed the EMDR cleared up the PTSD compleltly, and they can put the past behind them. Which means they no longer needed the drugs to treat their PTSD. This can be very threatening to drug companies who make huge amount of money off people suffering from this. So some of the negative stuff you read about is actually from these companies.
Plus who do they work with ? psychatrists, who also get big spiffs for precribing certain meds to their patients. My cousin who is a doc, has been on many tropical vacations because of how many times he prescribed a certain med. Now he said he would have precribed the meds anyways, but when you have spiffs involved, you tend to choose the meds (when there are many choices) that give pay backs. (now of course if he knew I was posting this, it would make him mad, because I am not suppose to know this info)
When a treatment tends to work very well at treating a disorder that many have suffered years from or the treatment prevents PTSD in develping full blown from tramatic events, the use of drugs for these conditions will not be needed as much. Well that is money loss to those companies, and they will do whatever to put down such treatments. Money makes the world go around.
Posted by OzLand on July 28, 2007, at 16:04:17
In reply to Re: this post and the one above of ozland » OzLand, posted by slugdoo on July 28, 2007, at 10:01:42
I completed school in 1994. So no I was not taught it in school, etc. I have friends/colleagues who went for the training when it first came out. At Menninger's it was psychologists and social workers who did EMDR. I am not sure if any of the psychiatrists learned it or not. I could ask. The thing is that you may not understand is that Menninger's used to be ranked number one in the country for their programs.
People from Menninger's may still use EMDR with some people. I am just not aware of it. It is NOT that they became anti-EMDR, and no one would ever accuse them of being in bed with the drug companies. When I was a patient there in the early to mid 80's I was being prescribed Parnate, and that was thought to be a no-no back then.
Anyway, I know the big fad now is Mentalizing, and I know they are using this and evaluating it too. They will use whatever works. Maybe EMDR works well for some people and not others. Our VAH has found that to be so. I am also a vet.
You are right; money makes the world go round, and the EMDR folks are no exception to the rule. When it first came out, one of my colleagues from school was offered all sorts of perks to do it and promote it. She did the training.
This is the end of the thread.
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