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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 31 to 55 of 61. Go back in thread:
Posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 20:04:52
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by wishingstar on February 4, 2007, at 18:45:42
> but taking away ALL choices, ALL freedom, just does not generalize to the outside world
It actually creates a potentially very dangerous world inside the hospital that is attractive to predators.
I'm sure you've probably heard the saying "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." The power staff wield over committed mental patients, who have been stripped of all choice, is almost as absolute as it gets.
In a perfect world, the mentally ill would all have benevolent caretakers. But that simply isn't the case.
Posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 20:16:24
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by wishingstar on February 4, 2007, at 18:42:10
> "Safe" was obviously not the right word to choose. I only meant it in a physical sense.
I know, Wishingstar. Safe is part of the lingo. I know you weren't using it in an intentionally upsetting way
It's just that I wasn't physically safe in the hospital. I definitely wasn't emotionally safe there either. Just because you are alive doesn't mean that you are safe. The word safe has become a euphemism for me.
Posted by Fallsfall on February 4, 2007, at 22:34:59
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » Fallsfall, posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 15:07:40
I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience.
Posted by Craig on February 5, 2007, at 3:39:42
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by vwoolf on February 4, 2007, at 3:32:59
I’m having a very hard time with this. I want to tell people what it was like, but I can’t find the words. It’s like trying to scream but no sound comes out.
===========================
> This sounds very painful. Won't you say more?
Posted by Craig on February 5, 2007, at 3:53:09
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » Craig, posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 9:54:54
I was in six different hospitals. The first two hospitalizations were involuntary in the sense that I was under 18 without legal rights. The other admissions were usually coerced and then once confined, I usually was not permitted to leave. The power that psychiatrists and their minions hold is unbelievable. “Patient rights” is a crock of sh*t. You can’t call anyone when you don’t have phone privileges. And good luck finding legal representation while they’re jabbing your *ss with a hypodermic needle and throwing you in 4-point restraints.
Yes, some hospitals were better than others, but it’s kind of like choosing the lesser of evils. In the end, the people who work there and the patients you’re in with determine the type of experience it is.=============================
> Hi Craig,
>
> > I’ve had 12 psychiatric hospitalizations, beginning when I was a minor.
>
> Twelve. I can't imagine twelve. It is such a huge number. You must be a very strong person.
>
> Were your hospitalizations voluntary or involuntary? Maybe a mixture? If you have experienced both, did you find a difference between the two? Were all admissions to the same hospital? If you were in different hospitals, were some better than others? What kinds of things made one better, if one was?
Posted by Craig on February 5, 2007, at 4:12:30
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » wishingstar, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 19:16:15
Do you mean a "One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest" kind of experience? Because I know what that’s like. Nurse Ratched was nonfictional to me.
NOTE to Dr. Bob: double double quotes didn't work for the DVD at Amazon, but it should be at http://www.amazon.com/One-Flew-Over-Cuckoos-Nest/dp/0790732181/sr=8-2/qid=1170654162/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/002-6028088-4861611?ie=UTF8&s=dvd
===================================
> Yup. I don't know what to write back to you. I really want to talk about my own experiences but when I start to think about it, it is so upsetting and triggering. I'll just say the nurses were not very nice where I was.
Posted by Craig on February 5, 2007, at 4:20:19
In reply to Re: Is it too painful to talk about still? Yes :( » zenhussy, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 21:33:11
You’ve just said it all.
============================
> That old adage "time heals all wounds" is a load of cr*p, isn't it?
Posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 8:05:09
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » vwoolf, posted by Craig on February 5, 2007, at 3:39:42
> I’m having a very hard time with this. I want to tell people what it was like, but I can’t find the words. It’s like trying to scream but no sound comes out.
Have you ever told anyone in your real life what it was like? I haven't (except my therapist). But then again, no one asks.Do you feel like people want to hear about it? I don't. And there's so much shame around having been treated that way. The fear that I MUST have done something to deserve it. I didn't, though. No one should ever ever be treated that way. Not even a dog.
Posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 8:30:08
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by Craig on February 5, 2007, at 3:53:09
> The power that psychiatrists and their minions hold is unbelievable.
Before I was hospitalized I had no idea. Not a clue. Since then, I've read a lot about the history of psychiatric treatment and it's frightening how that power has been abused throughout the years. I don't think the general public realizes. Or cares terribly much.
I think, morally, if society is going to grant psychiatrists that kind of power, it has a duty to ensure that power will not be misused.
>“Patient rights” is a crock of sh*t.It is very complicated because you are locked up in a space with someone who is abusing you, with no way to get away, and even if you gather the courage to tell, who do you tell and what happens to you after you tell because you are a mental patient so they're probably not going to believe you and in the end you are still trapped there and completely at their mercy.
Posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 8:57:21
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by Craig on February 5, 2007, at 4:12:30
> Do you mean a "One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest" kind of experience? Because I know what that’s like. Nurse Ratched was nonfictional to me.
I saw that movie a long time ago. Hmmm. No, not quite like that. There wasn't one specific nurse with that much power that I was aware of. And the main character in that movie (was it Murphy?) deliberately went out of his way to antagonize the nurse and set up power struggles with her, didn't he? I am a rather timid, quiet kind of person and tried to avoid the nurses as much as possible. I certainly never challenged their authority the way that Murphy did.
I could tell you lots of stories to try to describe more clearly what it was like but I'm uncomfortable posting them. And you already know, I think. Most of the other people who have posted spent a few days in hospital but you and I both spent much longer. It is the difference between visiting a foreign country on a short holiday and actually living there.
Posted by one woman cine on February 5, 2007, at 9:02:15
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » Fallsfall, posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 10:34:21
>
> I tend to find that if I say something bad happened to me, the general response often is "I'm sorry that happened to you but just because it did doesn't mean that it happens to everybody" which is very invalidating and a way of silencing me.
>I feel you misrepresented my words - again - I have no desire to silence you at all. I only wanted to discuss experience without a generality of "all doctors" - "all hospitals" - etc. etc.
I have fought against the generalities of "all people with borderline personality disorder, all hysterics" etc. - & sure they share some of the same traits but it denigrates the persons history and experience by lumpingeverything all together.
I am very sorry you feel the way you about what I wrote. But my intent and my words do not translate into trying silence you. At all.
There are dangers to generalizing and assuming. I never said abuses don't occur - but there is inherent dangers in not specifically discussing your own experience/perspective.
Posted by one woman cine on February 5, 2007, at 9:08:58
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by one woman cine on February 5, 2007, at 9:02:15
I'm sorry you have had some bad experiences, but don't translate that to mean *everyone*.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20070119/msgs/729007.html
Sorry you have had bad experiences but if you are going to talk about you and your experience, than do so - but again, please don't generalize.http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20070119/msgs/729015.html
In no way did I silence you, you have made an unfair assumption.
Posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 9:19:56
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by one woman cine on February 5, 2007, at 9:02:15
> I feel you misrepresented my words - again -One Woman Cine, nowhere in the sentence you quoted did I name you so how can you possibly accuse me of misrepresenting you?
>I have no desire to silence you at all.I experience your repeated admonitions to not generalize or assume as efforts to silence me. As I stated and spent a great deal of time clarifying on another thread, I think your accusations about me are unfounded and unwarranted.
>I only wanted to discuss experience without a generality of "all doctors" - "all hospitals" - etc. etc.
Again, if anyone is misrepresenting anyone, I think you are misrepresenting me. I have never said ALL doctors or ALL hospitals.
Posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 9:27:22
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by one woman cine on February 5, 2007, at 9:02:15
> There are dangers to generalizing and assuming.I am interested in hearing your opinions and discussing issues with you. However, I am clearly asking you now to stop posting that I am making generalizations and assumptions. I feel I am being harrassed.
I believe that it is also against Babble policy. I do not know how to link to a post on another board but please see below --
Re: Please rephrase that » gabbi-2
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 2, 2007, at 2:25:27
In reply to Re: Please rephrase » gardenergirl, posted by gabbi-2 on January 30, 2007, at 10:49:32
> How about
>
> > the generalizations and assumptions made in that post made me angryThanks for working on this, but referring to what someone says as "generalizations and assumptions" still could lead them to feel accused. Could you give it another try?
Bob
Posted by one woman cine on February 5, 2007, at 9:31:28
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » one woman cine, posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 9:27:22
I do not want you to feel harassed - but I stated things in a prior thread with you are now referring to - I feel accused and harrassed as well - how can we discuss this without either one of us feeling bad?
Posted by muffled on February 5, 2007, at 9:33:55
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » one woman cine, posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 9:19:56
The hospital would be scarey with noone to advocate for you. Esp if you on meds and can't be clear.
Yes I agree, hosp has power.
Same can be said of police, same thing. You CANNOT mess w/them cuz ultimately THEY HAVE ALL POWER over you. There is nothing you can do. Same thing.
It is a fallen world.
LOTSA bad sh*t goes on.
SO MUCH.
Mebbe Toojane, you will help others some day, maybe you can make hosp. a safer place for someone?
That would be a good thing.
Then what you have suffered will be turned to good.
Hope you OK.
Noone desrves abuse like you had, NOONE for NO REASON. There is NO excuses. You were wronged.
I'm sorry.
Muffled
Posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 9:40:53
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by one woman cine on February 5, 2007, at 9:31:28
> I do not want you to feel harassed - but I stated things in a prior thread with you are now referring to - I feel accused and harrassed as well - how can we discuss this without either one of us feeling bad?
You abandoned the discussion on the other thread. I would be open to continuing it there.However, on THIS thread, I and others are trying to discuss something that is terribly difficult and distressing. Many are finding the courage to express their experiences for the very first time. I do not want to this discussion to take place here. I find it invalidating when I say I was abused by a doctor for someone else to post back insisting that I not generalize and do not want others to feel unsafe to post here.
Posted by vwoolf on February 5, 2007, at 9:44:04
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » one woman cine, posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 9:40:53
I am finding this quarrel distressing. Please could it be taken somewhere else. It has no place on this thread.
Posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 11:18:53
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by vwoolf on February 5, 2007, at 9:44:04
> I am finding this quarrel distressing. Please could it be taken somewhere else. It has no place on this thread.
Vwoolf, I am very sorry I upset. I hope you'll keep posting here on this thread but understand if you find it too distressing
Posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 11:34:28
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by muffled on February 5, 2007, at 9:33:55
Hi Muffled,
> The hospital would be scarey with noone to advocate for you.
It was very scary
>Esp if you on meds and can't be clear.Being drugged against my will was terrifying. The effects of the drugs definitely made me unclear.
> Yes I agree, hosp has power.
> Same can be said of police, same thing. You CANNOT mess w/them cuz ultimately THEY HAVE ALL POWER over you. There is nothing you can do. Same thing.I haven't had any experience with the police but I can see how it could be similar.
But I seem to think that if I had an unpleasant encounter with the police, not at the time but afterwards, I could advocate for myself easily, bring charges, etc. If I were an average person. My word would have weight. But in a psychiatric hospital, simply by being there, my word is easily dismissed as the ravings of someone who is mentally ill.
I don't know. Thankfully, I haven't had any dealings with the police and therefore have no real understanding of the legal system or process.
> Mebbe Toojane, you will help others some day, maybe you can make hosp. a safer place for someone?
I'd like to do something. Maybe. In the future. There are psychiatric survivor movements. But I'd have to figure out some way first to grow a much thicker skin.
> Hope you OK.I'm not. But thank you so much for asking and hoping that for me.
Posted by vwoolf on February 5, 2007, at 14:41:14
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » muffled, posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 11:34:28
> I haven't had any experience with the police but I can see how it could be similar.
I have, for political reasons, and it's different but similar. Similar because they take away your power, different because you feel in control of your thoughts. In hospital you can't even trust those.
> > Mebbe Toojane, you will help others some day, maybe you can make hosp. a safer place for someone?
>
> I'd like to do something. Maybe. In the future. There are psychiatric survivor movements. But I'd have to figure out some way first to grow a much thicker skin.I'd also really like to do something, but I'm not sure what. But I'd like to do something important, that would make a real difference to survivors so that they don't have to go through what I went through.
I'd welcome suggestions....
Posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 15:11:50
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by vwoolf on February 5, 2007, at 14:41:14
> I have, for political reasonsWow, Vwoolf. I'm impressed. I admire people who are so passionate about their beliefs that they are willing to tangle with the powers-that-be. It is one thing to sit in a living room complaining and quite another to physically protest and put yourself in harm's way.
> I'd also really like to do something, but I'm not sure what. But I'd like to do something important, that would make a real difference to survivors so that they don't have to go through what I went through.
Are you "out"? By that I mean do the people in your life, not just close family, know that you've been hospitalized? To do much, I think I'd need to be out and I'm just not comfortable doing that yet.
What can you do and remain anonymous?
Posted by muffled on February 5, 2007, at 17:55:33
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » vwoolf, posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 15:11:50
I dunno, but if it were me, I guess I'd check a local hosps for volunteer opportunities.
I know when I was in, that there was a volunteer that came in to do activities(which I refused to do cuz I wouldn't admit I was there?!?).
But anyways, mebbe from that point you could find info, or a nurse or someone that might have similiar interests?
Or mebbe thru united way or salvation army, you could do advocacy stuff?
When my Dad was 'in', he was struck by others there who had noone. He felt so sad for them.
In my city there is a very active scitzophrenia society, and they can be a very good source of info etc. You do not have to have scitzophrenia to deal with them, they will assist with other illness.
I think the thing is to be persistant until you find your place where you are able to help.
I think of the people alone is hosp, medicated and confused and alone. I think mebbe it will be tough, but good work for someone.
Helping others helps oneself heal too.
This is how I would begin my search.
Muffled
Posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 18:52:32
In reply to Re: Hospitalization/Helping others, posted by muffled on February 5, 2007, at 17:55:33
> Helping others helps oneself heal too.Muffled, those were all excellent suggestions.
I strongly believe in helping others and have tried to live my life that way. Professionally, I worked in a helping field (somewhat similar to what Daisy does, I think). I was very successful and found the work fulfilling.
But now, I am very ill and cannot work. My symptoms are extremely debilitating and prevent me from doing many things. Often, I can barely stumble through a day.
When I was well, I did a lot of volunteer work in my community. I have been volunteering with organizations since I was a teenager.
I was actually very busy helping others in my "sane" life. Wouldn't know it to look at me now. That is something else I really struggle with -- the before me and the now me. I feel useless now.
Posted by muffled on February 5, 2007, at 20:52:28
In reply to Re: Hospitalization/Helping others » muffled, posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 18:52:32
(( toojane ))- safe hugs
You are not useless, you help out here.
And you have been well.
So hopefully there can be wellness again.
If its mental illness you struggle with, and physical for that matter. Its hard. The lack of control of our destinies, our bodies, our minds.....so hard.
But so often somewhat fixable, so that we may do some more good some how.
There's an old lady I know, very very old, and she can't do much, but she prays for others, she prays and prays. i feel good to know when she prays for me.
And thank you toojane, for the many good works you have done already. Without people like you, so many good things would never happen.
Take care
Muffled
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