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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 23 to 47 of 61. Go back in thread:
Posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 10:34:21
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by Fallsfall on February 4, 2007, at 10:14:18
> I found these old posts:
Thank you so much for taking the time to do that. I found them interesting to read.
> It is hard to write about even good hospital experiences. What are you trying to understand?
I just wanted an opportunity to share and hear about other people's experiences. I like hearing that you found hospitalization helpful. I didn't. But we can each share our stories without one nullifying the other.
I tend to find that if I say something bad happened to me, the general response often is "I'm sorry that happened to you but just because it did doesn't mean that it happens to everybody" which is very invalidating and a way of silencing me.
I am interested in hearing about everybody's experiences of hospitalization, good and bad. I was happy to hear that Deneb was treated kindly.
In one of your old posts, I found it very interesting to see you write "I loved being restricted because it made me feel safe and taken care of." That is so completely and utterly opposite to my experience. I did not feel safe or taken care of. Differences are fascinating to me.
I guess I'm trying to understand why some people are abused and some aren't, not only in hospitals but in life.
Posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 12:06:09
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by Fallsfall on February 4, 2007, at 10:14:18
> What are you trying to understand?
I am curious about the reasons why your hospitalization was so wonderful and mine wasn't.
Why?
Is it the hospital itself? The programs your hospital offered were not available in the one I was in. There was no rolling down hills like children or marvellous art projects. Is that because of wealth? Your hospital sounds like it is well-funded. Or is the staff "better" in some way? More responsible or accountable or compassionate or skilled?
Or is it you? Is it something about you? Your attitude? If you had been in the hospital I was in, would you have enjoyed being there? Would those things happening not have bothered you somehow? Or would they have simply never have happened to you? Why?
Is there something I could have/should have done differently? Like that woman in Australia in that article on another thread, why was "she" wearing that dog collar? Her psychologist said she made him put it on her because she could not be helped any other way. She made dog collars necessary. He believes that. But I want to know how could that possibly be true?
Posted by vwoolf on February 4, 2007, at 12:53:33
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » Fallsfall, posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 12:06:09
>>Is there something I could have/should have done differently? Like that woman in Australia in that article on another thread, why was "she" wearing that dog collar? Her psychologist said she made him put it on her because she could not be helped any other way. She made dog collars necessary. He believes that. But I want to know how could that possibly be true? <<
Oh toojane, I understand where you're going with this - it's the same as I was saying about colluding with mental illness, of making it a part of ourselves.
But I don't like to hear you say it. There's something wrong about it.
I think it's important to keep going back to the origin, to our innocence, to the abuse, and to keep naming it. Everything else is a consequence.
Otherwise we end up accepting a diagnosis of masochistic personality disorder. And that is not ok.
Posted by Fallsfall on February 4, 2007, at 13:37:44
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » Fallsfall, posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 12:06:09
Yes, my hospital was well funded, but not everyone there felt that it was a good experience for them. So I think the hospital/program/staff do make a difference, but what each patient brings makes a difference, too. There is also the question of "fit". Hospital A might be great for me, but awful for you, while Hospital B could be the opposite. A given hospital might be a good fit for a patient at one point and a bad fit later on.
And we, as patients, don't always have control over what we bring. Particularly patients with mental illness. Often our issues prevent us from making use of the resources that are available.
I think that my hospitalizations were good in large part because I was able to see them as opportunities, rather than incarcerations. I saw it as an opportunity to work hard with lots of different kinds of support - support that wasn't otherwise available to me. But that doesn't mean that I didn't resist that support, or believe at some times that it wasn't what I needed. And my hospitalizations weren't ALL good - there were problems - but the benefits outweighed the problems. For instance, I refused to speak to the psychiatrist who had my case the first time when I went in again - I forced (against HIS better judgement) that I be assigned to a different doctor. And then I had a shouting match with the second doctor in the middle of the common room.
I also stayed each time for 2 weeks. The average stay was 3 or 4 days. If I had left after 3 days (particularly the second time), I might not be as positive about the experience.
It is all a matter of fit. What do YOU need NOW, and is THIS hospital able to provide it? That's a lot of variables.
Posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 15:07:40
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by Fallsfall on February 4, 2007, at 13:37:44
> A given hospital might be a good fit for a patient at one point and a bad fit later on.
Yeah, I get what you're saying about "fit" but I can't see how these things can ever fit.
I realize I am being vague. It's hard to talk about but I'm not meaning personality clashes with staff or being upset because of limits on personal freedom because of being restricted to a ward.
I'm talking about acts that were humiliating and demeaning and degrading and criminal. If a staff member had done the same thing to a person on the street, they would have been arrested but because it happened in a psychiatric hospital to a mental patient it is allowed. Or, if not "allowed" - possible.
> I think that my hospitalizations were good in large part because I was able to see them as opportunities, rather than incarcerations. I saw it as an opportunity to work hard with lots of different kinds of support - support that wasn't otherwise available to me.
No matter what way I look at it, I cannot frame my experience as an opportunity I failed to take advantage of.
> If I had left after 3 days (particularly the second time), I might not be as positive about the experience.If only I'd been able to leave after three days. The longer I stayed, the worse it got.
Posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 15:36:35
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by vwoolf on February 4, 2007, at 12:53:33
> But I don't like to hear you say it. There's something wrong about it.
I know but I still wonder and ask these questions about myself ALL THE TIME. See, it's easier to talk hypothetically or about someone else. That Australian psychologist did not put dog collars on all his patients. He couldn't have. Not every single one. Why did he pick her? What was it about her? I wonder this about myself constantly.
Why did those things happen to me in the hospital? It was a hospital! Aren't most people helped in hospitals? I can't help thinking there MUST be something off about me. But then, in the hospital, there was absolutely no way that I could get away. Because they locked me in. So is it less my fault, at least that time?
> I think it's important to keep going back to the origin, to our innocence, to the abuse, and to keep naming it. Everything else is a consequence.I know that intellectually. I think. But I still feel very responsible. I want to know exactly what I did or do so that I can stop it.
> Otherwise we end up accepting a diagnosis of masochistic personality disorder. And that is not ok.Didn't women's groups block the inclusion of that "disorder" in the DSM?
Posted by wishingstar on February 4, 2007, at 18:42:10
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » wishingstar, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 19:16:15
>
> Yup. I don't know what to write back to you. I really want to talk about my own experiences but when I start to think about it, it is so upsetting and triggering. I'll just say the nurses were not very nice where I was.
>You dont have to write anything.. it's okay. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience though.
>
> Being locked up on a ward is mind-numbingly boring. There is nothing to do but sit in the day room watching tv. I think it makes you sicker not having anything to distract you, not being able to go anywhere or do anything. The environment does not promote wellness. I think it makes you sicker.
>I absolutely agree. Aside from keeping you from physically killing yourself or hurting yourself, it doesnt do much. "Safe" was obviously not the right word to choose. I only meant it in a physical sense. I'm really sorry this was so bad for you.
Posted by wishingstar on February 4, 2007, at 18:45:42
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » wishingstar, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 19:28:02
>
> I don't believe you can truly help people by taking away their choices. I think that once you impose your will on someone else, once you believe it is acceptable to do that, it makes abuses that much easier to happen. Slippery slope.
>Again, just want to say that I agree with you completely. There are certainly situations in which people need to be kept physically safe, and so I can understand the need to protect people in that way with some restrictions (ie, taking away sharps) but taking away ALL choices, ALL freedom, just does not generalize to the outside world. Even aside from the possible abuses which can occur (which I dont mean to trivialize at all, just wanting to add another point), the entire goal of hospitazliation as I know it is to stabalize a person so they can be better, safer, etc when released. But this fake environment doesnt generalize terribly well. Even if you were safe in that environment, if you had no practice in keeping yourself safe or healthy, being released can be very difficult I think.
Posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 20:04:52
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by wishingstar on February 4, 2007, at 18:45:42
> but taking away ALL choices, ALL freedom, just does not generalize to the outside world
It actually creates a potentially very dangerous world inside the hospital that is attractive to predators.
I'm sure you've probably heard the saying "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." The power staff wield over committed mental patients, who have been stripped of all choice, is almost as absolute as it gets.
In a perfect world, the mentally ill would all have benevolent caretakers. But that simply isn't the case.
Posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 20:16:24
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by wishingstar on February 4, 2007, at 18:42:10
> "Safe" was obviously not the right word to choose. I only meant it in a physical sense.
I know, Wishingstar. Safe is part of the lingo. I know you weren't using it in an intentionally upsetting way
It's just that I wasn't physically safe in the hospital. I definitely wasn't emotionally safe there either. Just because you are alive doesn't mean that you are safe. The word safe has become a euphemism for me.
Posted by Fallsfall on February 4, 2007, at 22:34:59
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » Fallsfall, posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 15:07:40
I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience.
Posted by Craig on February 5, 2007, at 3:39:42
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by vwoolf on February 4, 2007, at 3:32:59
I’m having a very hard time with this. I want to tell people what it was like, but I can’t find the words. It’s like trying to scream but no sound comes out.
===========================
> This sounds very painful. Won't you say more?
Posted by Craig on February 5, 2007, at 3:53:09
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » Craig, posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 9:54:54
I was in six different hospitals. The first two hospitalizations were involuntary in the sense that I was under 18 without legal rights. The other admissions were usually coerced and then once confined, I usually was not permitted to leave. The power that psychiatrists and their minions hold is unbelievable. “Patient rights” is a crock of sh*t. You can’t call anyone when you don’t have phone privileges. And good luck finding legal representation while they’re jabbing your *ss with a hypodermic needle and throwing you in 4-point restraints.
Yes, some hospitals were better than others, but it’s kind of like choosing the lesser of evils. In the end, the people who work there and the patients you’re in with determine the type of experience it is.=============================
> Hi Craig,
>
> > I’ve had 12 psychiatric hospitalizations, beginning when I was a minor.
>
> Twelve. I can't imagine twelve. It is such a huge number. You must be a very strong person.
>
> Were your hospitalizations voluntary or involuntary? Maybe a mixture? If you have experienced both, did you find a difference between the two? Were all admissions to the same hospital? If you were in different hospitals, were some better than others? What kinds of things made one better, if one was?
Posted by Craig on February 5, 2007, at 4:12:30
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » wishingstar, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 19:16:15
Do you mean a "One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest" kind of experience? Because I know what that’s like. Nurse Ratched was nonfictional to me.
NOTE to Dr. Bob: double double quotes didn't work for the DVD at Amazon, but it should be at http://www.amazon.com/One-Flew-Over-Cuckoos-Nest/dp/0790732181/sr=8-2/qid=1170654162/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/002-6028088-4861611?ie=UTF8&s=dvd
===================================
> Yup. I don't know what to write back to you. I really want to talk about my own experiences but when I start to think about it, it is so upsetting and triggering. I'll just say the nurses were not very nice where I was.
Posted by Craig on February 5, 2007, at 4:20:19
In reply to Re: Is it too painful to talk about still? Yes :( » zenhussy, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 21:33:11
You’ve just said it all.
============================
> That old adage "time heals all wounds" is a load of cr*p, isn't it?
Posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 8:05:09
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » vwoolf, posted by Craig on February 5, 2007, at 3:39:42
> I’m having a very hard time with this. I want to tell people what it was like, but I can’t find the words. It’s like trying to scream but no sound comes out.
Have you ever told anyone in your real life what it was like? I haven't (except my therapist). But then again, no one asks.Do you feel like people want to hear about it? I don't. And there's so much shame around having been treated that way. The fear that I MUST have done something to deserve it. I didn't, though. No one should ever ever be treated that way. Not even a dog.
Posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 8:30:08
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by Craig on February 5, 2007, at 3:53:09
> The power that psychiatrists and their minions hold is unbelievable.
Before I was hospitalized I had no idea. Not a clue. Since then, I've read a lot about the history of psychiatric treatment and it's frightening how that power has been abused throughout the years. I don't think the general public realizes. Or cares terribly much.
I think, morally, if society is going to grant psychiatrists that kind of power, it has a duty to ensure that power will not be misused.
>“Patient rights” is a crock of sh*t.It is very complicated because you are locked up in a space with someone who is abusing you, with no way to get away, and even if you gather the courage to tell, who do you tell and what happens to you after you tell because you are a mental patient so they're probably not going to believe you and in the end you are still trapped there and completely at their mercy.
Posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 8:57:21
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by Craig on February 5, 2007, at 4:12:30
> Do you mean a "One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest" kind of experience? Because I know what that’s like. Nurse Ratched was nonfictional to me.
I saw that movie a long time ago. Hmmm. No, not quite like that. There wasn't one specific nurse with that much power that I was aware of. And the main character in that movie (was it Murphy?) deliberately went out of his way to antagonize the nurse and set up power struggles with her, didn't he? I am a rather timid, quiet kind of person and tried to avoid the nurses as much as possible. I certainly never challenged their authority the way that Murphy did.
I could tell you lots of stories to try to describe more clearly what it was like but I'm uncomfortable posting them. And you already know, I think. Most of the other people who have posted spent a few days in hospital but you and I both spent much longer. It is the difference between visiting a foreign country on a short holiday and actually living there.
Posted by one woman cine on February 5, 2007, at 9:02:15
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » Fallsfall, posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 10:34:21
>
> I tend to find that if I say something bad happened to me, the general response often is "I'm sorry that happened to you but just because it did doesn't mean that it happens to everybody" which is very invalidating and a way of silencing me.
>I feel you misrepresented my words - again - I have no desire to silence you at all. I only wanted to discuss experience without a generality of "all doctors" - "all hospitals" - etc. etc.
I have fought against the generalities of "all people with borderline personality disorder, all hysterics" etc. - & sure they share some of the same traits but it denigrates the persons history and experience by lumpingeverything all together.
I am very sorry you feel the way you about what I wrote. But my intent and my words do not translate into trying silence you. At all.
There are dangers to generalizing and assuming. I never said abuses don't occur - but there is inherent dangers in not specifically discussing your own experience/perspective.
Posted by one woman cine on February 5, 2007, at 9:08:58
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by one woman cine on February 5, 2007, at 9:02:15
I'm sorry you have had some bad experiences, but don't translate that to mean *everyone*.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20070119/msgs/729007.html
Sorry you have had bad experiences but if you are going to talk about you and your experience, than do so - but again, please don't generalize.http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20070119/msgs/729015.html
In no way did I silence you, you have made an unfair assumption.
Posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 9:19:56
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by one woman cine on February 5, 2007, at 9:02:15
> I feel you misrepresented my words - again -One Woman Cine, nowhere in the sentence you quoted did I name you so how can you possibly accuse me of misrepresenting you?
>I have no desire to silence you at all.I experience your repeated admonitions to not generalize or assume as efforts to silence me. As I stated and spent a great deal of time clarifying on another thread, I think your accusations about me are unfounded and unwarranted.
>I only wanted to discuss experience without a generality of "all doctors" - "all hospitals" - etc. etc.
Again, if anyone is misrepresenting anyone, I think you are misrepresenting me. I have never said ALL doctors or ALL hospitals.
Posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 9:27:22
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by one woman cine on February 5, 2007, at 9:02:15
> There are dangers to generalizing and assuming.I am interested in hearing your opinions and discussing issues with you. However, I am clearly asking you now to stop posting that I am making generalizations and assumptions. I feel I am being harrassed.
I believe that it is also against Babble policy. I do not know how to link to a post on another board but please see below --
Re: Please rephrase that » gabbi-2
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 2, 2007, at 2:25:27
In reply to Re: Please rephrase » gardenergirl, posted by gabbi-2 on January 30, 2007, at 10:49:32
> How about
>
> > the generalizations and assumptions made in that post made me angryThanks for working on this, but referring to what someone says as "generalizations and assumptions" still could lead them to feel accused. Could you give it another try?
Bob
Posted by one woman cine on February 5, 2007, at 9:31:28
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » one woman cine, posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 9:27:22
I do not want you to feel harassed - but I stated things in a prior thread with you are now referring to - I feel accused and harrassed as well - how can we discuss this without either one of us feeling bad?
Posted by muffled on February 5, 2007, at 9:33:55
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » one woman cine, posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 9:19:56
The hospital would be scarey with noone to advocate for you. Esp if you on meds and can't be clear.
Yes I agree, hosp has power.
Same can be said of police, same thing. You CANNOT mess w/them cuz ultimately THEY HAVE ALL POWER over you. There is nothing you can do. Same thing.
It is a fallen world.
LOTSA bad sh*t goes on.
SO MUCH.
Mebbe Toojane, you will help others some day, maybe you can make hosp. a safer place for someone?
That would be a good thing.
Then what you have suffered will be turned to good.
Hope you OK.
Noone desrves abuse like you had, NOONE for NO REASON. There is NO excuses. You were wronged.
I'm sorry.
Muffled
Posted by toojane on February 5, 2007, at 9:40:53
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by one woman cine on February 5, 2007, at 9:31:28
> I do not want you to feel harassed - but I stated things in a prior thread with you are now referring to - I feel accused and harrassed as well - how can we discuss this without either one of us feeling bad?
You abandoned the discussion on the other thread. I would be open to continuing it there.However, on THIS thread, I and others are trying to discuss something that is terribly difficult and distressing. Many are finding the courage to express their experiences for the very first time. I do not want to this discussion to take place here. I find it invalidating when I say I was abused by a doctor for someone else to post back insisting that I not generalize and do not want others to feel unsafe to post here.
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