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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by orchid on April 27, 2006, at 14:49:37
Not sure if this is the right place to talk about it. But it is about my work and since it has quite a bit of psychological aspects to it, I think this might be the place to ask for advice.
I had an excellent career, and was quite very accomplished - I worked in perhaps one of biggest companies in the world, and I was doing decently well. And I gave it up 6 months back for personal reasons to move back to my country and am not working now.
However, now I am thinking of either going back to work or atleast studying further in my field and there are some psychological blocks that are occurring in my mind.
Growing up, I was considered to be very geeky, and the serious type with no fun and who always is a book worm etc. I was even considered to be completely feeling less or without any sexual feelings by my cousins. I was also very fat and way oversize. But I was considered to be very intelligent and always did well in studies, even with minimal effort. (Later I realized that being fat and being so studious was my perverted attempt to come to terms with my mild csa and to avoid any attention to myself to even look attractive). But naturally I am decently good looking, and eventually I shed all the extra pounds and became more feminine (according to the traditional terms, and now there is no issue with my appearance). And now I am decently good looking.
But there is always a part of me that associated being a good student and doing well in academics and career with being geeky and masculine, and somehow associated that with being not attractive and feminine. Logically I know that is not the case, but emotionally I still find it hard to accept that I could do very well in my career and still be a good woman - so to speak.
So even though I was doing well in my career, a part of always fought against it myself - I would loaf around, and delay doing things etc etc, but I somehow managed to do well in the end.
Now, however, I find myself not able to overcome this emotional block. I find myself unable to study about my career, and I need to constantly study and do well and be assertive to be able to succeed. And wheenver I try to study, I find myself feeling very yucky about myself, and feel like I am being like a man.
Any advice on how to overcome this? And to add to that, my husband is following some cult which is preaching against women working. They take a very conservative stance about every thing, and that is not helping, though my husband doesn't object to my going back to work, I get the feeling that he would prefer me in a more homely kind of role.
And there are some practical issues like being in a constant shuttling mode from my country and the US and we plannning for a child etc which are working against me working again as well. But still I would like to overcome this psychological block now.
Posted by fi on April 27, 2006, at 19:06:37
In reply to Need some advice regarding being geeky, posted by orchid on April 27, 2006, at 14:49:37
I cant give you any advice on that. But sympathies on what sounds like a difficult one. Your belief that studying/doing well are geeky masculine things seems very strong, whether or not it is logical. I dont know if there is some way of getting a more realistic view? May be simplistic idea, but arent there feminine women who are also high achievers/academics? Or female friends with a different view?Does that help challenge your assumption?
But maybe it is the kind of thing that would need some counselling or similar. Deeply held beliefs arent that easy to understand or change.
On a purely basic personal level, when I have been studying or at work, there was no visible difference between people who were and werent doing well. There is still the stereotype that women should be 'barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen' ie not out at work. Cant help that your husband might feel more comfortable with that.
It would be so good if, whichever choice you make, you could have a satisfying life. I would love there to be some solution like that out there.
Fi
Posted by madeline on April 27, 2006, at 20:18:26
In reply to Need some advice regarding being geeky, posted by orchid on April 27, 2006, at 14:49:37
Orchid,
This may be long and rambling, but I want to share my career story with you. I have a history of CSA/physical abuse and emotional abuse. I’m 35 and I have spent well over half of my life building a career, I think, whose focus has been to (1) deny that I am female and have emotions (2) understand the pain I wouldn’t let myself feel by understanding, on a molecular level, the pain others feel. But this has changed so much for the better.
So, my story.
I finished by undergraduate education with degrees in mathematics and chemistry. I was the only girl in most of my upper level math courses and I felt so proud that I could hang with and outdo most of my male counterparts. I wore suits and kept my hair short and behaved very much like a man. I even broke off an engagement to marry because I did not want to play the typical “woman” role of wife and mother.
I then went into a doctoral program in the biomedical sciences. During this time my metamorphosis into the most male-like female I knew became almost complete. I shunned the company of any male companionship, didn’t date. I spent 80 hours a week in a sterile, cold, isolated research lab studying sickle cell disease. I let the scientific method absolutely rule my life. If it couldn’t be quantified, it didn’t exist to me, therefore my emotions and the essential feminine me just went away. And yet, all the while, working to alleviate the pain that sickle cell disease feel, not realizing that I was trying to understand the pain that I felt inside.
I graduated with my doctorate when I was 30 and I am now a scientist and professor at a major university in the US. I have my own research lab and still study sickle cell disease.
Around 5 years ago, I had a total collapse, a dam just broke inside of me. All of the emotions, all of the memories, all of the essential parts of me that I had tried to just push down, started to bubble to the surface. I think I was just too exhausted to keep them down.
I started therapy, and though it has taken a long time I am starting to integrate all of my parts, including the feminine me, into a comprehensive whole “me”. It’s not perfect, but it’s getting there.
I noticed also that my research (the very thing that had consumed me) had become very stale to me. It seemed so barren and pointless, and just like you are experiencing now I think, I became very resistant to actually doing ANYTHING – not very good when you rely on NIH funding. But, like you, I muddled along and managed to succeed. I tried to sort of get the “science mindframe” back, but to little or no avail.
But then, an opportunity to expand my research into WOMEN’s health came along. I felt like a lightening bolt had hit me! This is it! I can fully explore the feminine side of me, while using my way overeducated brain to help other women. I CAN embrace both worlds! I now study pregnancy in sickle cell disease and going to work is a pleasure. I feel very feminine AND very scientific. I let my intuition play as big a role in my work as my devotion to the scientific method.
I am blending to two wholes, the masculine and the feminine and it’s working (pardon the pun).
Maybe your psychological block to studying and thinking about work is that you are thinking about the wrong line of work. If it’s the right line, I think it will flow easily from you, but if the “fit” isn’t there, then you may be telling yourself, “this isn’t right”. Maybe instead of going on with your current career, you could think about looking at other ones, or similar ones that can exercise both the masculine AND the feminine side of your being.
I suspect that since you feel more feminine, your work may need to be a natural extension and expression of that. Maybe then, you could lose the psychological block.
Posted by Racer on April 27, 2006, at 21:53:56
In reply to Need some advice regarding being geeky, posted by orchid on April 27, 2006, at 14:49:37
This might not help anyone, although I'd like to point out that I *am* feminine, my body is made up almost entirely of curving parts, I flirt and laugh with men, and no one would ever accuse me of being like a man in any of my general encounters in the world.
But I'm good at math, and I think of that as being part of my feminine self. I'm interested in and good at various other sciences, and I think of that as being part of my feminine self. I was a good computer geek, and thought of that as being perfectly feminine -- especially when it was trouble-shooting logic trees, etc.
I just erased a long post here, that really didn't get anywhere. Instead, let me say this: there are men out there who are dumb -- and you won't hear anyone call them "feminine" or "womanly" because of it. (And angels and ministers of grace defend me -- I was about to frame that thought as a math problem...)
If you're concerned about remaining feminine and womanly while studying science, wear a dress when you go to class. I used to. And I loved it when all the Serious Male Students would assume I was dumb as a flat rock because of that skirt. Because you know what? I still got the second highest grade in most every class I took.
The procrastination? I would bet that's a flavor of anxiety. "Oh my gosh! What if I don't do as well as I think I should? What if it's too hard for me? What if..." I'm going through that right now, in a way. (And pity poor GG who has to hear all too much about it!) I just started taking a couple of classes at a local junior college, and I worried a lot that I wouldn't be able to keep up, that I couldn't get back to being the student I was twenty years ago, etc. And I worried that I would somehow, fundamentally, fail. The semester is coming to an end, I've survived -- still have a pulse, at least -- and so far I'm passing everything. Will I be able to get the same grades I used to get? Only time will tell. Will I survive if I don't? I have been assured that I will. (And I will believe it IF I see it...)
What I try to tell myself, though is this: if I take this class, at the end of 15 weeks I will have new information that I want. If I don't take this class because I am too afraid of not doing well, at the end of 15 weeks -- I'll still be wanting to get that information!
I also remind myself that if I audit the class, I will wish I had gone for the grade. I also remind myself that I could improve my study habits to improve my grades. {sigh}
Hope that helps. And, for what it's worth, I *love* knowing that I can keep up with men intellectually, and on "their" turf -- all while wearing 2.5" heels!
Posted by madeline on April 28, 2006, at 6:49:42
In reply to C'mon, women, embrace your inner geek!, posted by Racer on April 27, 2006, at 21:53:56
Racer,
I really enjoyed the tone of your post. It seems as though a natural optimism and joy came through. Revel in that! Being in school can be so much fun, but there are just a few points I want to respond to.
******If you're concerned about remaining feminine and womanly while studying science, wear a dress when you go to class.*******
If only everything were that simple! Being a woman is so much more than wearing a dress.
Sometimes it's about WANTING to deny who you are.
*****The procrastination? I would bet that's a flavor of anxiety.******
That really really depends on the situation. For me at least, fear of failure was never an issue. Anything you put in front of me I could master. It became more about pursuing what FELT right versus what didn't.
*****...I *love* knowing that I can keep up with men intellectually, and on "their" turf -- all while wearing 2.5" heels!******
It's not always about making it on their turf, but about finding yours.
And please quit wearing those heels, you are killing your feet, knees and back ;)
Good luck with your classes.
Maddie.
Posted by Racer on April 28, 2006, at 12:33:48
In reply to Re: C'mon, women, embrace your inner geek! » Racer, posted by madeline on April 28, 2006, at 6:49:42
> If only everything were that simple! Being a woman is so much more than wearing a dress.
>
>
Of course there's more to it. And I hardly ever wear dresses, skirts, or heels anymore. (And usually wore Capezio professional tap shoes, which are less damaging than many other shoes...)I did wear skirts and heels in class, though, as a sign of respect for the professor and the process -- kinda like wearing The Uniform in the office, which I did back in the days before figuring out that life is just too short for pantyhose.
I guess the bottom line is that I feel like a woman. In jeans, sweats, slacks, or skirts. Maybe it's just that I do feel smart, and often feel capable, so I associate those things with feeling like a woman? Or maybe it's my generation -- I grew up in the 70s, after all, when we were not supposed to acknowledge any limitations imposed by our gender.
As for your comments about procrastination, I agree. There are almost as many reasons for procrastination as there are procrastinators. (And I'll figure out mine just as soon as I can get myself started... %-0 ) I know that I've procrastinated for a lot of reasons that have little to do with anxiety: boredom, Monkey Brain, resentment at doing something I consider a waste of time, etc. In Orchid's case, though, it did sound like anxiety, partly about the gender issues. That's why I included it...
And I meant to ask but forgot -- if you work in sickle cell disease, would you mind a babblemail to play Southern Chess? I know a sickle cell researcher at NIH, and am terribly nosy...
Take care, and I'm glad you like your inner geek.
Posted by orchid on April 28, 2006, at 13:57:43
In reply to Re: Need some advice regarding being geeky » orchid, posted by fi on April 27, 2006, at 19:06:37
Thanks fi.
I do understand logically everything, that is the hard part. Logically things perfectly fit in, and I do know of lot of women who are extremely feminine and who are exceptionally intelligent and humourous and good natured. And I also know women who are really arrogant and angry and bitchy and who are really dumb.
So logically I have tried my best to see other people and develop the correct attitude. But emotionally somehow that still escapes me.
You are right about it being a fodder for therapy, but I don't have any therapist. And I did bring up this issue to both my previous Ts, but I think they both didn't pay that much attention to this issue, because of other serious issues that we were working on.
Posted by orchid on April 28, 2006, at 14:10:10
In reply to Re: Need some advice regarding being geeky » orchid, posted by madeline on April 27, 2006, at 20:18:26
Thanks a lot Madeline for sharing your story with me.
It really helps me to see that there are others with the same issue.
I have some kind of csa and emotional abuse as well, and I think that is why I have been struggling so much with this whole concept of femininity and being masculine etc.
I want to reject any concept of being a woman and at the same time know full well that I really do feel like a woman - perhaps even more so than the other women that I see. But it is hard to bring everything together - sometimes I feel so disgusted with my body, and I feel almost like rejecting any feminine parts, and I am almost afraid that I will end up getting cancer or something if I have so much grudge against them. But at other times, I know I really do feel so much like a woman, and I know there is this very strongly feminine person deep inside. But I still tend to be very childish - not really a role I play, I really feel and sometimes act and feel like a child in spite of my best efforts to get over that, and sometimes that adds to the confusion.
I don't really know how to get over it. Your post has given quite a bit to think about, how you ended up liking working in a women related field. Maybe that is why I like babble so much, because it helps me to talk to other women about their issues. It kind of brings out very womanly side of mine, and I think that really helps.
Maybe I should look at working in some area which is not so feeling less like computer programming. I am a computer professional, and really typing code could be as emotional less as any other job could get. Maybe that is why I don't like it.
Thanks for your post.
> Orchid,
>
> This may be long and rambling, but I want to share my career story with you. I have a history of CSA/physical abuse and emotional abuse. I’m 35 and I have spent well over half of my life building a career, I think, whose focus has been to (1) deny that I am female and have emotions (2) understand the pain I wouldn’t let myself feel by understanding, on a molecular level, the pain others feel. But this has changed so much for the better.
>
> So, my story.
>
> I finished by undergraduate education with degrees in mathematics and chemistry. I was the only girl in most of my upper level math courses and I felt so proud that I could hang with and outdo most of my male counterparts. I wore suits and kept my hair short and behaved very much like a man. I even broke off an engagement to marry because I did not want to play the typical “woman” role of wife and mother.
>
> I then went into a doctoral program in the biomedical sciences. During this time my metamorphosis into the most male-like female I knew became almost complete. I shunned the company of any male companionship, didn’t date. I spent 80 hours a week in a sterile, cold, isolated research lab studying sickle cell disease. I let the scientific method absolutely rule my life. If it couldn’t be quantified, it didn’t exist to me, therefore my emotions and the essential feminine me just went away. And yet, all the while, working to alleviate the pain that sickle cell disease feel, not realizing that I was trying to understand the pain that I felt inside.
>
> I graduated with my doctorate when I was 30 and I am now a scientist and professor at a major university in the US. I have my own research lab and still study sickle cell disease.
>
> Around 5 years ago, I had a total collapse, a dam just broke inside of me. All of the emotions, all of the memories, all of the essential parts of me that I had tried to just push down, started to bubble to the surface. I think I was just too exhausted to keep them down.
>
> I started therapy, and though it has taken a long time I am starting to integrate all of my parts, including the feminine me, into a comprehensive whole “me”. It’s not perfect, but it’s getting there.
>
> I noticed also that my research (the very thing that had consumed me) had become very stale to me. It seemed so barren and pointless, and just like you are experiencing now I think, I became very resistant to actually doing ANYTHING – not very good when you rely on NIH funding. But, like you, I muddled along and managed to succeed. I tried to sort of get the “science mindframe” back, but to little or no avail.
>
> But then, an opportunity to expand my research into WOMEN’s health came along. I felt like a lightening bolt had hit me! This is it! I can fully explore the feminine side of me, while using my way overeducated brain to help other women. I CAN embrace both worlds! I now study pregnancy in sickle cell disease and going to work is a pleasure. I feel very feminine AND very scientific. I let my intuition play as big a role in my work as my devotion to the scientific method.
>
> I am blending to two wholes, the masculine and the feminine and it’s working (pardon the pun).
>
> Maybe your psychological block to studying and thinking about work is that you are thinking about the wrong line of work. If it’s the right line, I think it will flow easily from you, but if the “fit” isn’t there, then you may be telling yourself, “this isn’t right”. Maybe instead of going on with your current career, you could think about looking at other ones, or similar ones that can exercise both the masculine AND the feminine side of your being.
>
> I suspect that since you feel more feminine, your work may need to be a natural extension and expression of that. Maybe then, you could lose the psychological block.
>
Posted by orchid on April 28, 2006, at 14:11:46
In reply to C'mon, women, embrace your inner geek!, posted by Racer on April 27, 2006, at 21:53:56
Thanks Racer, I do like the fact that you didn't have any problem with it.
I have seen lot of women who tend to manage to do well. But I think it is because of my abuse and childhood experiences that I am still not getting a hang on it.
Posted by Racer on April 28, 2006, at 15:01:28
In reply to Re: C'mon, women, embrace your inner geek! » Racer, posted by orchid on April 28, 2006, at 14:11:46
>>I think it is because of my abuse and childhood experiences that I am still not getting a hang on it.
I think there are more possible elements to it, including things like what you wrote about coding being emotionless; your generation, which got different messages about femininity than mine did; your native culture and its views of appropriate gender roles; your family dynamics; and so many more things that might not be apparent without a backhoe to dig them up.
Do you know any relaxation techniques? Even just taking a deep breath and being conscious of relaxing your abdominal muscles? Just try that, and try to conjure up a sense of what you feel when you think "I am womanly." See if anything comes up for you that might suggest why it's so hard for you? Like, does being "womanly" to you mean being silly? Vulnerable? Behaving unpleasantly towards others? Being unacceptably subservient toward others? (I had a roommate in college from a SEA moslem country who was fiercely "masculine," because in her mind, being "feminine" meant being half a person -- not deserving education, not deserving the best food, not mattering enough that anyone ever asked what you wanted. Admittedly, she was disturbed in ways that had little to do with where she was born, but it's amazing what "womanly" means to different people.)
At any rate, here's a little half cup of hope for you: I had a lot more trouble with all of this when I was younger. Now, I'm a middle aged woman, I know what I know, I do what I do, and if it's not OK, then you're not my friend. The only thing that's really changed is my age, so it's likely you'll get more comfortable with your self, little by little, as a natural development. (My mother says she just doesn't care as much, which may be all it is. I still care about things, but not about whether or not I'm feminine enough, or too feminine, or anything like that.)
Hope that helps.
Posted by orchid on April 28, 2006, at 17:18:32
In reply to I think there are more options than those... » orchid, posted by Racer on April 28, 2006, at 15:01:28
I have tried relaxation and meditation to get over this issue. But it usually worsens if I try to imagine my body when I am in a relaxed state. So I gave up that idea.
I know it has to do a lot with my country and culture etc and how I grew up, and frankly it is too complicated for me to try to figure out what the heck is wrong. I have tried pretty much everything I could possibly think of, and nothing works out.
Maybe it will get more comfortable.
Posted by madeline on April 28, 2006, at 18:33:58
In reply to You're right, of course... » madeline, posted by Racer on April 28, 2006, at 12:33:48
babblemail away my dear.
I don't know what southern chess is, however.
Maddie
Posted by Racer on April 28, 2006, at 21:32:52
In reply to Re: You're right, of course... » Racer, posted by madeline on April 28, 2006, at 18:33:58
LoL! Sorry. "Southern Chess" is where you meet someone and go through the "do you know so'n'so?" "No, but I know his brother's wife's hairdresser's daughter's schoolteacher!"
B-mail on its way...
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