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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by badhaircut on May 22, 2005, at 12:54:08
Peter Kramer will be on NPR Tuesday (5/24/05) at 11:00 AM Eastern to talk about the spiritual richness, allure, and creative energy of depression. He says that's all a bunch of hooey.
He just wrote a book about it: "Against Depression." There's a review of the book in today's New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/22/books/review/22ANGIERL.htmlThe Diane Rehm Show is a live, hour-long, call-in show. Email questions in advance to drshow@wamu.org or call 1-800-433-8850.
I can't find a current list of stations, but you can listen live online or later get the archive version:
http://www.wamu.org/programs/dr/05/05/24.php
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 22:14:21
In reply to Kramer on depression on radio Tuesday, posted by badhaircut on May 22, 2005, at 12:54:08
I coincidentally just ordered a tape of the interview with "Myth of Sanity" author Martha Stout.
Posted by badhaircut on May 22, 2005, at 22:31:50
In reply to Is that a mental health show? » badhaircut, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 22:14:21
No, Diane Rehm is a general topic show. I hope you enjoy the tape of Martha Stout.
Peter Kramer also has his own weekly radio show that *is* just about psychology issues. I wish it was broadcast near me (or that Real Player still supported my Windows 95!). It's:
http://www.theinfinitemind.com/
Posted by 64bowtie on May 23, 2005, at 2:00:28
In reply to Is that a mental health show? » badhaircut, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 22:14:21
"...ah we all know there's no 'Sanity Claus(e)'!"
Rod
Posted by badhaircut on May 24, 2005, at 11:32:35
In reply to Kramer on depression on radio Tuesday, posted by badhaircut on May 22, 2005, at 12:54:08
Sometimes people say that certain creative people require depression in order to be creative.
In the show, Kramer said there's some evidence that people who are *prone* to depression are in fact more likely to be "creative," but the condition itself does not promote creativity. He says every study done on it suggests that people are less creative when depressed and more creative when not depressed.
Posted by 64bowtie on May 25, 2005, at 1:28:04
In reply to depression and creativity, posted by badhaircut on May 24, 2005, at 11:32:35
Yup! That's what I keep hearing, toooo...
» bhc », Thanx so much for your alerting us here and there... It's nearly impossible to keep up with all the details without helping hands like yours...
Just a thought... I have read that some depression events can be linked to unresolved conflict... My bias is that depression usually has internal conflictedness somewhere inclusive... So, since conflict so greatly taxes our resources, we might say that conflict and conflictedness block creativity toooo much for creativity to be significant while conflict is unfolding... A stretch would be a blanket statement like, "conflict blocks creativity as it is causing the onset of a depression event"... Be carefull about blanket statements... Ya' never know what's underneath the blanket...
Rod
Posted by badhaircut on May 25, 2005, at 12:21:11
In reply to » bhc » depression and creativity thoughts, posted by 64bowtie on May 25, 2005, at 1:28:04
> Thanx so much for your alerting us here and there...
Thank you for saying so, Rod. I figure there may be 2 or 3 lurkers who'd be interested in a show or article, even if very few post about them later.
I am leaning away from the idea that conflictedness can ever be a cause of depression, even if they seem to occur together. Mental conflict is inherent and inescapable. I am beginning to suspect that our brains were made to maintain such conflicts, not to resolve them.
I'm not sure that conflict saps creative resources, either. Perhaps a struggle to resolve some scary inner conflict could drain creative resources.
-bhc
Posted by 64bowtie on May 26, 2005, at 1:57:38
In reply to conflictedness » 64bowtie, posted by badhaircut on May 25, 2005, at 12:21:11
» bhc »
> Mental conflict is inherent and inescapable. I am beginning to suspect that our brains were made to maintain such conflicts, not to resolve them.
>
<<< Perhaps an abstraction of what you are concerned with might shed light: 'Time/value' may not seem like it belongs in this discussion, whereas dysfunction probably is OK to talk about here...If we are dealing with multigenerational/multilayer dysfunction in our lives, when would we ever have an organized and disciplined time to see a moment of un-conflictedness? So I tend to err on the side of peaceful resolution as a worthwhile goal... Bare in mind that we average 20 minor conflicts in our daily lives...
I ask the question, with all that practice, why are we so bad at conflict resolution? I submit that its our afinity for dysfunction (dysfunction can be summed up as a collection or suite of bad habits, interlinked and teaming up to affect us negatively, ergo affective disorder)... Depression is the 'poster-child' affective-disorder, and is ubiquitous...
As for 'time/value', if your time and responsibilities get compressed by happenstance, conflicts will increase because they have an invisible clock that defies reason. As our time is compressed and our responsibilities increase, our conflict management skills tend to suffer... This phenomenon might partially explain you feelings that we are increasingly attracted to more and more conflicts....
> Perhaps a struggle to resolve some scary inner conflict could drain creative resources.
<<< Athletes report that their amount of creativity seems to be inversely proportional to the amount of time spent working out and exercizing, sorta like creativity shares the same calories that their working out and exercizing demands... Perhaps conflict is also similarly inversely proprotional....
Rod
Posted by badhaircut on May 26, 2005, at 5:15:10
In reply to » bhc » conflictedness innevitability, posted by 64bowtie on May 26, 2005, at 1:57:38
In your earlier post you spoke of "internal conflictedness," which I took to mean mental and emotional conflicts. My reply concerned this sense. You now seem to be speaking of family conflicts and time conflicts, which are two other types.
> ...explain your feelings that we are increasingly attracted to more and more conflicts
I have not said that we are attracted to conflict or that conflict is increasing.
Posted by fires on May 26, 2005, at 22:51:49
In reply to conflictedness » 64bowtie, posted by badhaircut on May 26, 2005, at 5:15:10
I believe that depression is a physical disease that produces brain problems, which creates "emotional" problems, which some therefore believe are the cause of depression.
Maybe some with Dep. benefit from CBT, but I think when depression is treated, the "thinking distortions" go away without CBT.
Posted by pegasus on May 27, 2005, at 10:44:39
In reply to Re: conflictedness » badhaircut, posted by fires on May 26, 2005, at 22:51:49
You know, I think this a very interesting issue. It's definitely true for at least some people that when put on appropriate meds, depression can really lift without any therapy, or more than with therapy. So, obviously, there is something physiological to that depression.
But I wonder whether this is a chicken and egg argument. There's a fair amount of research done on how traumas, for example, end up changing brain chemistry (see, for example, the work of Bruce Perry and colleagues). If it works for trauma, it might also be true that certain experiences can lead to depression. So, then, it follows that certain other experiences (like CBT) might also be able to change brain chemistry in a positive way, to alleviate the symptoms of trauma and depression. And medications could, of course, change the brain chemistry in similar ways.
So, I guess what I'm saying is that maybe the physical disease of depression arises at times because of negative experiences (say, bad parenting). And then meds can fix it, because it does have a physical expression. And then maybe sometimes it's a purely physical disease, perhaps inherited.
Just throwing out some other possibilities out there. I've suffered from depression for many years, and I received significant benefit from CBT, and many years later also significant benefit from meds. I can see how my upbringing could have taught me many of the negative thoughts that I turn to during depression. But then, there is also depression in my family. So I'm trying to make sense of my own experience.
pegasus
Posted by fires on May 27, 2005, at 11:22:18
In reply to Re: conflictedness » fires, posted by pegasus on May 27, 2005, at 10:44:39
>>There's a fair amount of research done on how traumas, for example, end up changing brain chemistry (see, for example, the work of Bruce Perry and colleagues).<<
Just to show how differently we think -- when I read "trauma" (above), I thought of physical brain trauma. I've been asked about that in recent years (I had a couple of concussions prior to the onset of my dep. many years ago).
The problem with all of the psychosocial theories of depression: Most negative experiences (abuse, bad parenting, acute or long term stress, etc... don't result in depression, or any other psych disorder. It's like saying that most child abusers were abused when they were children --- without saying that most abused children don't become abusers.
Posted by badhaircut on May 27, 2005, at 16:29:46
In reply to Re: conflictedness » badhaircut, posted by fires on May 26, 2005, at 22:51:49
As pegasus says, it is a very interesting issue.
Depression seems to me to be something other than thoughts and feelings. I don't just mean that it involves a physiological problem: it surely does, in various ways. But I suspect that central, even causal, in depression is a particular kind of interior, conscious attitude toward thoughts and feelings. An attitude of unwillingness to have certain feelings and of needing to control what we think.
Perhaps depression is a state we get into when this central unwillingness makes for a terrific struggle against unwanted feelings and thoughts and that struggle ends up being impossible. Maybe that state is in fact physiological (in a nontrivial way). At this point, I would guess so.
Maybe this state of depression, in addition to bringing all the physiological & neurological destruction that Peter Kramer talks about, also brings still more ugly, scary thoughts & feelings. When we also start struggling against THOSE in the same fruitless, impossible ways, we get trapped in a vicious, increasingly bad cycle.
This theory is still a little unformed in my mind, although I'm basing it on some books I've read (and posted about in other threads). I'm not sure how I think meds fit into it.
But even when a depression has past (because of meds or time or whatever), we still have many "distorted," "illogical," "conflicted" thoughts. Maybe a Mindfulness type of attitude, in which we see thoughts & feelings as having a free existence separate from us, might help avoid relapse or other destructive states.
Posted by 64bowtie on May 28, 2005, at 0:57:14
In reply to conflictedness » 64bowtie, posted by badhaircut on May 26, 2005, at 5:15:10
» bhc »
If anything I was agreeing while adding, "...maybe, just suppose..." Also I did overstate your position... I apologise for that...
My whole point was that those who are stuck compressing the time they might have and be used to having, might begin to flounder and one day end up in a state of 'affective disorder'; depression...
My whole quote was: <<< As for 'time/value', if your time and responsibilities get compressed by happenstance, conflicts will increase because they have an invisible clock that defies reason. As our time is compressed and our responsibilities increase, our conflict management skills tend to suffer... This phenomenon might partially explain your feelings [<that we are increasingly attracted to more and more conflicts>]....
As you see above, if I had stopped at the word 'feelings'I perhaps wouldn't have irritated you... I apologise... You are one of my heros here at Babble that I listen to carefully...
Rod
Posted by 64bowtie on May 28, 2005, at 1:01:31
In reply to Re: conflictedness » badhaircut, posted by fires on May 26, 2005, at 22:51:49
Posted by badhaircut on May 28, 2005, at 9:16:23
In reply to » bhc » In no way was I competing with you, posted by 64bowtie on May 28, 2005, at 0:57:14
"Competing"? Rod, I can sincerely tell you that in many ways I suspect your thoughts are far ahead of those you talk to, including me. I don't think you need to apologize for having your own ideas.
I'm glad you seem to enjoy reading some of my posts. I've enjoyed many of yours.
Be well, Rod. I mean it.
Posted by pegasus on May 28, 2005, at 9:25:17
In reply to Re: conflictedness » pegasus, posted by fires on May 27, 2005, at 11:22:18
You said: "Most negative experiences (abuse, bad parenting, acute or long term stress, etc... don't result in depression, or any other psych disorder. "
Is that really true? Depression is extremely common in our society. The commonly cited statistic is 16% of us will experience depression, and I imagine that is pretty underreported.
And maybe it's only certain types of negative experiences, requiring certain conditions, that would lead to depression. I don't know about any research on this, it just sounds to me like a plausible explanation. I mean, you hear all the time about how someone has a depressive episode outside of the normal grief process following some experience (breakup of a relationship, death of a loved one, loss of a job, etc.).
I'm not disagreeing that depression has a physiological cause. I'm just wondering where that physiology comes from. It's interesting that depression hits different people at very different times in their lives.
pegasus
Posted by Dinah on May 28, 2005, at 9:54:38
In reply to Re: conflictedness » fires, posted by pegasus on May 28, 2005, at 9:25:17
We're born with biological predispositions but their expression is determined to a greater or lesser extent by our environment, depending on the nature of the biological predisposition.
Like I'm biologically predisposed to diabetes and got overweight. Not all those who are overweight get diabetes. But not all of those with the biological predisposition develop diabetes. If I hadn't gained fifty pounds I most likely wouldn't have. But if I had had a disposition for a different sort of diabetes, it wouldn't have mattered what I did. I'd have gotten diabetes.
So with mental illness, in some cases the biological disposition is so strong, that no amount of good fortune and internal self talk would help. But in other cases, there is a tendency to depression or anxiety whose expression is determined by both external (like parenting) and internal (like self talk) variables.
Posted by fires on May 28, 2005, at 10:51:14
In reply to Nature + Nurture?, posted by Dinah on May 28, 2005, at 9:54:38
> We're born with biological predispositions but their expression is determined to a greater or lesser extent by our environment, depending on the nature of the biological predisposition.
>
> Like I'm biologically predisposed to diabetes and got overweight. Not all those who are overweight get diabetes. But not all of those with the biological predisposition develop diabetes. If I hadn't gained fifty pounds I most likely wouldn't have. But if I had had a disposition for a different sort of diabetes, it wouldn't have mattered what I did. I'd have gotten diabetes.
>
> So with mental illness, in some cases the biological disposition is so strong, that no amount of good fortune and internal self talk would help. But in other cases, there is a tendency to depression or anxiety whose expression is determined by both external (like parenting) and internal (like self talk) variables.
Don't forget that some of us were born with apparently "abnormal" immune systems. We might be able to avoid depression if we aren't exposed to the viruses which apparently trigger it. Parenting and self talk may have nothing to do with this/these type(s) of depression.Borna virus:
http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.borna.html
Immune/inflammatory responses/cytokines:
http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.borna.html
Interferon and depression:
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/interferon-alpha.htm
Posted by fires on May 28, 2005, at 10:59:37
In reply to Re: conflictedness » fires, posted by pegasus on May 28, 2005, at 9:25:17
> You said: "Most negative experiences (abuse, bad parenting, acute or long term stress, etc... don't result in depression, or any other psych disorder. "
>
> Is that really true? Depression is extremely common in our society. The commonly cited statistic is 16% of us will experience depression, and I imagine that is pretty underreported.
>
> And maybe it's only certain types of negative experiences, requiring certain conditions, that would lead to depression. I don't know about any research on this, it just sounds to me like a plausible explanation. I mean, you hear all the time about how someone has a depressive episode outside of the normal grief process following some experience (breakup of a relationship, death of a loved one, loss of a job, etc.).
>
> I'm not disagreeing that depression has a physiological cause. I'm just wondering where that physiology comes from. It's interesting that depression hits different people at very different times in their lives.
>
> pegasusThe psychosocial factors may only be the straw that breaks the camels back. A lot of people experience depression without any grieving going on. Of course the hard core psychologizers can say that they are grieving -- they just don't know that they are. ;)
Posted by Dinah on May 28, 2005, at 11:02:44
In reply to Re: Nature + Nurture? » Dinah, posted by fires on May 28, 2005, at 10:51:14
Answers are usually not all or nothing, in my experience.
That may be the case in some types of depression.
But in others, some of us are born with certain sensitivities that make us vulnerable to depression or anxiety. Depending on the degree of sensitivity, a person might never develop depression or anxiety, or might depending on stressors, or might regardless of stressors.
Just like there are different types of diabetes with different causes and different modes of expression.
Posted by 64bowtie on May 29, 2005, at 2:21:48
In reply to ''competing''? » 64bowtie, posted by badhaircut on May 28, 2005, at 9:16:23
Posted by pegasus on May 29, 2005, at 21:13:08
In reply to Re: conflictedness » pegasus, posted by fires on May 28, 2005, at 10:59:37
Yeah, that makes sense to me. I think it's likely that depression is one of those things that may have lots of different paths to it.
pegasus
Posted by fires on May 29, 2005, at 22:14:27
In reply to Re: conflictedness, posted by pegasus on May 29, 2005, at 21:13:08
Posted by gardenergirl on May 30, 2005, at 0:13:26
In reply to Re: conflictedness, posted by pegasus on May 29, 2005, at 21:13:08
I think there are different triggers to it even in one person. I know I've had down episodes that were due to a meds problem or my thyroid being off. And I've also had some related to emotional stuff, like caring for my mom last summer.
gg
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