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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 71. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 15:59:23
In reply to I don't get it, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 15:39:01
FYI I have been diagnosed with BPD and I do not call my therapist between visits, worry about my therapist particularly, and I am not in love with my T.
I don't imagine that anyone goes to therapy to have all that happen. But therapy brings up stuff. Stuff that a lot of people feel embarrassed and ashamed about. That is why it is so nice that people can talk about it here without having to worry about being judged for it.
Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 16:20:45
In reply to That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » fires, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 15:46:51
> That's why therapists receive training.
>
> Some of us may have bpd, others of us don't. It doesn't really matter, does it? Feelings are feelings.I think it matters because:
My former MD, a specialist in TRPs, had a bpd patient file a bogus lawsuit against him because he refused to have an affair with her.
p. 34 "Tuning the Brain"
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 16:27:27
In reply to Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » Dinah, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 16:20:45
That certainly was unfortunate. But to blame bpd, or to assume that all bpd patients would do such a thing, would be no more fair than any other sort of global assumptions from a specific incident.
There are any number of people with BPD who don't do any such thing.
So no, I don't see where that makes any difference at all. Pain is pain, and feelings are feelings.
And I never have been diagnosed with BPD and in fact it's been specifically ruled out by a few pdocs, so I'm not being defensive.
Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 16:31:57
In reply to Re: I don't get it » fires, posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 15:59:23
I went to Stanford.edu and found the following about bpd:
"There is also emotional instability with marked and frequent shifts to an empty lonely depression or to irritability and anxiety. There may be unpredictable and impulsive behavior which might include excessive spending, promiscuity, gambling, drug or alcohol abuse, shoplifting, overeating or physically self-damaging actions such as suicide gestures. The person may show inappropriate and intense anger or rage with temper tantrums, constant brooding and resentment, feelings of deprivation, and a loss of control or fear of loss of control over angry feelings. There are also identity disturbances with confusion and uncertainty about self-identity, sexuality, life goals and values, career choices, friendships. There is a deep-seated feeling that one is flawed, defective, damaged or bad in some way, with a tendency to go to extremes in thinking, feeling or behavior. Under extreme stress or in severe cases there can be brief psychotic episodes with loss of contact with reality or bizarre behavior or symptoms."
Hard to communicate with, or trust someone with such severe symptoms -- in my opinion.
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 16:42:39
In reply to Re: I don't get it » alexandra_k, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 16:31:57
offsets the rest of what you said.
It's hard to get a full picture of a disorder from a paragraph. As in any other disorder, personality or otherwise, there are degrees of severity. And degrees of recovery.
It's also important to recognize that the thing most borderlines have in common is the pain that emotional disregulation causes. How they deal with that pain varies greatly from person to person. Perhaps you would benefit from asking people how they deal with the pain involved. You might get answers that surprise you. Some people do it by overcontrol, others by acting out. NOT ALL PEOPLE WITH BPD ACT THE SAME WAY.
Sorry to shout.
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 16:45:24
In reply to I doubt that adding In my opinion, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 16:42:39
That was levity. :)
Posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 16:55:37
In reply to Re: I don't get it » alexandra_k, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 16:31:57
Oh I see, so one person does that and all of a sudden all people with that diagnosis are tarred with the same brush.
I am oh so tempted to ask what you have been diagnosed with so I can return the compliment.
> "There is also emotional instability with marked and frequent shifts to an empty lonely depression or to irritability and anxiety. There may be unpredictable and impulsive behavior which might include excessive spending, promiscuity, gambling, drug or alcohol abuse, shoplifting, overeating or physically self-damaging actions such as suicide gestures. The person may show inappropriate and intense anger or rage with temper tantrums, constant brooding and resentment, feelings of deprivation, and a loss of control or fear of loss of control over angry feelings. There are also identity disturbances with confusion and uncertainty about self-identity, sexuality, life goals and values, career choices, friendships. There is a deep-seated feeling that one is flawed, defective, damaged or bad in some way, with a tendency to go to extremes in thinking, feeling or behavior. Under extreme stress or in severe cases there can be brief psychotic episodes with loss of contact with reality or bizarre behavior or symptoms."
And what, you think I haven't seen that before?
> Hard to communicate with, or trust someone with such severe symptoms -- in my opinion.
Well I find it hard to trust or communicate with someone who is expressing such a judgemental attitude as yourself - in my opinion.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 17:05:03
In reply to Re: I don't get it » fires, posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 16:55:37
Yeah, okay, so no doubt my response just confirms your already low opinion of my diagnosis. Not only that, but considering that you do not distinguish between people and what they have been diagnosed with no doubt my above post just confirms your already low opinion of me.
I take what you have to say extremely personally because BPD is the diagnosis that provokes more judgement than anything else (aside from maybe DID).
But you really have no idea.
If you actually care to broaden your mind I suggest you read "Cognitive-Behavioral Treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder".
Imagine what it may be like to be an emotionally sensitive and intense child who is met by the world by abuse and emotional invalidation so that when you try to say how you feel you are told not to be stupid or worse. You learn that your emotional responses are unacceptable so you try to repress them as best you can. But then they come out so intense that you think you are going to die and you do not even know that they are emotions. You hate yourself and who you are so much that you cut and burn and so on. And then to be told that such things are 'attention seeking' is just oh so ironic when the only way people found out was when they strip searched you.
That is my experience.
My experience is that clinicians are judgemental towards people who experience BPD because they get frustrated that there is no magic pill. There is nothing they can do to make it stop or make it go away. After a while that turns into countertransference and blaming the victim.
I really don't get you and your attitude.
I consider your post to be completely unsupportive of people with this diagnosis.
And completely judgemental.
If you cannot change your attitude, or at least refrain from expressing it I would request that you do not post to me.
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 17:15:39
In reply to Re: I don't get it, posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 17:05:03
Please don't let it upset you, Alexandra. More and more, clinicians are starting to lose the judgmental attitude that used to exist. And more and more are starting to consider it less a personality disorder than an affective disorder. Which makes perfect sense under Linehan's model. (Although frankly, I think all "personality disorders" should be reclassified to the underlying cause.)
I think we mental health advocates are winning on this one front. But it takes time for knowledge to seep in. Remember the old theories of autism?
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 17:16:49
In reply to Re: I don't get it, posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 17:05:03
Talk to Nikki about this. She's doing some exciting advocacy work in the UK.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 17:25:32
In reply to If you get a chance » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 17:16:49
It doesn't really worry me anymore. I just refuse to work with clinicians who can't get past my diagnosis to me.
The ironic thing about it all is that for the last couple of years I have been told that I don't have BPD, I have DID but nobody (in NZ) is willing to risk their reputation on making that diagnosis, so my diagnosis remains unchanged.
That is small comfort to me really as 70-80% of people with DID meet BPD criteria anyway. And then there is the point that the typical attitude towards DID is much worse than the typical attitude towards BPD...
(Now you could really have some fun with that one Fires)
It just gets to me that someone posting on a mental health board (presumably with issues of their own) can be so judgemental.
But such is life, I suppose.
Some people do things like that to try and feel better about themselves...
Posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 17:51:57
In reply to I don't get it, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 15:39:01
I don't get you at all.
First you are fairly judgemental to most of the posters on PsychoBabble.
Then you qualify that by turning it into a dig at BPD.
And then, when it looks like your dig isn't working too well because of a fault in your logic you dig out a quote on BPD specifically and read judgement into it when there isn't really any judgement (all depends on the reasons why people act like that).
Who hurt you?
Or are you just trying to defend your T?
(Only borderlines would do that, but I am not borderline, ergo...)Ignore my 'do not post to me'.
I really am interested.
Whats your problem?
Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 18:07:21
In reply to I doubt that adding In my opinion, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 16:42:39
How are readers here supposed to know who acts which ways? Which bpds can we believe/trust? I know not all bpds are the same.
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 18:14:04
In reply to Re: I doubt that adding In my opinion » Dinah, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 18:07:21
Surely everyone is an individual and should be evaluated for trustworthiness based on their behavior, not their diagnosis.
Why don't you just get to know people on this site one by one, if you wish to get to know people here. Not by a class.
Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 18:17:39
In reply to No, you don't and I don't get you, posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 17:51:57
1) I don't have a T. As my retired MD coined ("Tuning the Brain"): "CBT in a pill."
2)Why do you assume that someone hurt me?
3)Who said I have a problem?
Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 18:21:10
In reply to Re: If you get a chance » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 17:25:32
You are assuming I'm judgmental. You stated:
"Some people do things like that to try and feel better about themselves..."
How civil is that comment?
Posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 18:31:05
In reply to Re: If you get a chance » alexandra_k, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 18:21:10
Sorry to burst your bubble but you can't get from 'some' to 'x' (a specific individual).
In other words it does not follow from
"Some people do things like that to try and feel better about themselves..."
that you do things like that to try and feel better about yourself. But then it does not rule that out, either.
How civil is that comment?
So I dare say that comment is perfectly fine.
Thats the brilliance of it.
Though, I apologise for the other one IF AND ONLY IF it made you feel hurt or accused. I could cite several facts that led me to come to that conclusion, but then I suppose we would need to haggle over the appropriate description of the facts.I have wasted enough of my time and effort on trolls who post just to rile people up (note: that does not mean that you are a troll and / or that you are doing this to rile people up)
Please do not post to me.
(And yes, thats you, I am talking to you now)
Posted by TofuEmmy on December 12, 2004, at 18:32:44
In reply to I don't get it, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 15:39:01
Surely you don't think that everyone who experiences positive or even erotic transference towards their T has BPD??
If that were the case, T's would all be millionaires.
em
Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 20:02:57
In reply to Re: I don't get it » fires, posted by TofuEmmy on December 12, 2004, at 18:32:44
And I have wasted enough of my time and efforts on irrational people who post just to rile people up (note: that does not mean that you are irrational and / or that you are doing this to rile people up).
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 20:22:21
In reply to Re: I don't get it, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 20:02:57
It's wise of you to know that time spent with people who post just to rile people up could be spent more profitably. I doubt anyone would disagree with that.
And I couldn't possibly even imagine you meant to apply that to anyone on this thread, evidence weighing heavily against such a conclusion. However, I appreciate your disclaimer.
I always wonder if that internet truism is really true, though. I wonder if there really *are* people who post *just* to stir things up. But maybe sometimes a banana is just a banana.
Oh well.
Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 20:42:00
In reply to Re: I don't get it » fires, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 20:22:21
I think there are peolpe who like to talk about controversial subjects. Some people seem to react to such people with strong emotions and personal attacks rather than reason.
"Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people." - Admiral Hyman G. Rickover
Posted by gardenergirl on December 12, 2004, at 20:58:30
In reply to Re: I don't get it, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 20:42:00
> I think there are peolpe who like to talk about controversial subjects. Some people seem to react to such people with strong emotions and personal attacks rather than reason.
True, but in my experience, those who like to talk about controversial subjects have some vested interest in them. And if they are debating for the sake of improving knowledge, I find that respect and empathy for the other side of the discussion helps to understand the complete picture and thus expands knowledge.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on December 12, 2004, at 21:03:12
In reply to Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » Dinah, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 16:20:45
> I think it matters because:
>
> My former MD, a specialist in TRPs, had a bpd patient file a bogus lawsuit against him because he refused to have an affair with her.
>
> p. 34 "Tuning the Brain"I hardly think that one must have bpd to file a bogus lawsuit.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on December 12, 2004, at 21:08:32
In reply to Re: No, you don't and I don't get you » alexandra_k, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 18:17:39
> 1) I don't have a T. As my retired MD coined ("Tuning the Brain"): "CBT in a pill."
>
> 2)Why do you assume that someone hurt me?
>
> 3)Who said I have a problem?Ooh, loaded questions. My favorite.
gg
Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 21:19:18
In reply to Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » fires, posted by gardenergirl on December 12, 2004, at 21:03:12
> > I think it matters because:
> >
> > My former MD, a specialist in TRPs, had a bpd patient file a bogus lawsuit against him because he refused to have an affair with her.
> >
> > p. 34 "Tuning the Brain"
>
> I hardly think that one must have bpd to file a bogus lawsuit.
>
> ggNo, but given the following "symptoms", I'm sure it must help:
Diagnostic Criteria
A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment.
Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.
a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluationidentity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self
impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating).
Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.
recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior
affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)chronic feelings of emptiness
inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)
transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms
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