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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Shortelise on December 4, 2004, at 12:55:30
I went to an event a few weeks ago where I tried a product a woman was selling in a booth.
The product was mixed with another and I was unable to distinguish the one she was selling and asked to try it pure.
She ripped my innocent head off. "What exactly do you want me to do?" she barked.I was not being aggressive. I can be, I can be a real witch, but I wasn't being one then and there.
Nothing, I said, and walked away.
I would have liked to have said "I am interested enough in your product to want to taste it. Why are you speaking to me in this manner?" But I couldn't say any of those things. She frightened and hurt me, and I could not speak or I would have cried.
How many times I have not been able to "defend" myself in situations of this sort I cannot count. It's always the same. I choke.
There are a couple of things I wonder about here: Is this regression? Am I popped back into how I felt as a child when I was unjustly accused?
Or is it something else?
What is interesting is as I was writing, I had another thought about what it could be and that thought is now gone. Hmm.
Thanks.
ShortE
Posted by cubic_me on December 4, 2004, at 15:18:40
In reply to is this regression?, posted by Shortelise on December 4, 2004, at 12:55:30
Now you mention it - I do that too, and I was often accused of things I didn't do as a child and I felt I couldn't defend myself.
You might be on to something there. I'm sorry I can't really answer your question, but you certainly gave me an insight into myself - thankyou :)
Posted by Daisym on December 4, 2004, at 15:59:33
In reply to Re: is this regression? » Shortelise, posted by cubic_me on December 4, 2004, at 15:18:40
I'm not sure it is regression as much as it is an ingrained, reflex reaction to either tone voice or a facial expression. Your amegdela has encoded these things during previous interactions and most likely, you WERE hurt, yelled at, accused, whatever. This emotional center has a hyper reaction upon being restimulated and you are flooded with old emotions, including confusion (what did I do?) and embarressment. This makes it really hard to use your other brain centers to "think" of a response. How many times have you walked away and later thought "I should have said, blah, blah..."
It takes a lot of retraining of the brain to counteract such a powerful, almost instantaneous responses. There are many techniques that teach you to catch your own reactions and counter with breathing or mantras, or self-talk of some kind. The key is catching yourself.
I think that there are regressive qualitites to these feelings because they were likely encoded when we were young and felt powerless against whomever. I think that is why you freeze up and/or run away. Remember biology: fight, flight or freeze? Perhaps you should be glad that your initial response isn't fight -- so many people get immediately hostile-- which is sounds like this lady did with you.
And don't you just HATE when people say to you, "you shouldn't let people upset you..." urgg
Posted by Poet on December 4, 2004, at 16:03:53
In reply to is this regression?, posted by Shortelise on December 4, 2004, at 12:55:30
Hi ShortE,
Here's another take on this.
You made a polite and logical request and was greeted with rudeness. You didn't act rude in return, you walked away, which caused her to lose a sale.
I can understand how you felt like you did when you were a child and was falsely accused, but to me telling her you wanted *nothing* and walking away was a good defense. She is the loser.
Poet
Posted by Shortelise on December 4, 2004, at 20:48:40
In reply to Re: is this regression?, posted by Daisym on December 4, 2004, at 15:59:33
Daisy, I think I see what you mean.
At the time, on the moment, I knew what I wanted to say, I just couldn't say it. But most of the time, I think of a response much later.
I think I would rather have a "fight" response. I envy those who do. Not a physical one, but a verbal one. And, come to think of it, my response was fear and hosility, I just coulnd't act on it!
Thanks.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on December 4, 2004, at 20:51:30
In reply to Re: is this regression? » Shortelise, posted by cubic_me on December 4, 2004, at 15:18:40
Cubic, It really pleased me that you found this thread interesting.
It was Dinah's thread "I don't belive my therapist" that got me thinking about this, so you might want to read that too.
It's wonderful for me to come here and find some insight into things that are right at this moment on my mind.ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on December 4, 2004, at 20:59:27
In reply to Re: is this regression? » Shortelise, posted by Poet on December 4, 2004, at 16:03:53
Poet, that's a good point, that she lost a sale, that she is the loser. I happen to know, however, that this woman is very successful in her business.
Recently, another person greeted me with simliar hostility. I responded with kindness, and was able to walk away feeling really good.
What I would really have liked to do to the first woman was throw her down and pull her hair until she screamed. I would have liked to have knocked her booth down and broken every bottle on it. No, what I would have liked to have done, what would have been really satisfying would have been to be able to say to her what I couldn't get out of my mouth at the moment which was an accusation of meaness and ugliness.
What I would like would be to have the choice of what I would do. I would like to be able to say to my self, Self, you can either do a,b or c. Hmm, lemme see, I think I'll call her a mean toad and laugh. Ha!
I am learning, learning al the time. Thanks for your words, Poet.
ShortE
Posted by Dinah on December 4, 2004, at 21:38:05
In reply to is this regression?, posted by Shortelise on December 4, 2004, at 12:55:30
I wish I knew. I didn't really understand it when my therapist said it to me. And he's obviously forgotten. But when he seemed surprised, I had a dim memory that he pursued this for a few weeks. So I'm going to remind him of it next session and see if it jogs anything loose. Maybe this time I'll understand.
Posted by gardenergirl on December 4, 2004, at 22:05:58
In reply to is this regression?, posted by Shortelise on December 4, 2004, at 12:55:30
>
> What is interesting is as I was writing, I had another thought about what it could be and that thought is now gone. Hmm.
>Don't you hate when that happens? That happens to me in therapy all the time. I suspect it's something in my subconscious that isn't quite ready to come out yet. It's like a big tease.
As far as your question...I think it's the ingrained response perhaps learned very early. That's not regression per se, but rather what you know and who you are now.
But I LOVE you image of destroying the booth. Wouldn't that be satisfying on some level?
gg
Posted by Shortelise on December 5, 2004, at 12:11:42
In reply to Re: is this regression? » Shortelise, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2004, at 21:38:05
I guess I don't really know what regression means. I think of it as falling back into a behaviour that is age inappropriate. Like, if I had reached over and pulled that mean nasty woman's hair. That was a line of action with my sister when I was small.
But if it's not regression, but a learned behaviour, that explains why it's not too difficult to feel the feeling but react a little differently sometimes.
Still, this will take some talking about to understand.
Could you keep us posted as to what your T says? Forgetting is a big part of therapy for me, and coming back to the same things again and again until my conscious is ready to hear them.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on December 5, 2004, at 12:17:32
In reply to Re: is this regression? » Shortelise, posted by gardenergirl on December 4, 2004, at 22:05:58
Forgetting thoughts is molte annoying, drives me absolutely nuts because I KNOW it's some truth I'm avoiding.
I want to stand up and shout: Hey, you, buddy -get back over here! Where d'ya think yer goin'? Don't bother to try this, it doesn't work, and the other people on the bus get scared.
So, gg, how would you differentiate between regression and what I experience? I mean, what is regression? What would my reaction be if it were regression? Do you see what I'm asking?
Thanks, happy one.
ShortE
Posted by gardenergirl on December 8, 2004, at 23:36:58
In reply to Re: is this regression? » gardenergirl, posted by Shortelise on December 5, 2004, at 12:17:32
>
> I want to stand up and shout: Hey, you, buddy -get back over here! Where d'ya think yer goin'? Don't bother to try this, it doesn't work, and the other people on the bus get scared.LOL
>
> So, gg, how would you differentiate between regression and what I experience? I mean, what is regression? What would my reaction be if it were regression? Do you see what I'm asking?Wow, that's a really tough question. I'm just going to rattle off my thoughts here. So keep a box of salt handy. I haven't looked up any references in coming up with this reply. :)
The term regression means moving to a more child-like state, and developmentally speaking, it implies moving backwards. It is used as a term for a defense mechanism. For example, I once had a client literally throw a tantrum on the floor near the elevator because the nurse wouldn't give him his pain meds right then. I think that is regression in the more perjorative sense. His behavior was clearly regressed, as no reasonable adult would likely ACTUALLY throw a tantrum like that, even if we feel we want to. This was a defense of his, in that acting like a petulant child allowed him to remain dependent and helpless rather than take more assertive steps to get what he needed. He was quite dependent when I met him.
Regression in a therapeutic sense, however, implies a discovering or re-discovering of that child-like part of us that still exists and is a valuable source of information. For some, regressing into play and child-like innocence is a nice balance to being tightly wound, controlled, and stressed. I experienced this one afternoon when I was delighting in stepping among the fall leaves just to hear the crunchy sound. Or the other night when I was giggling helplessly at Rudolph. And reciting half the lines. I think we all need this from time to time.
Sometimes that child-like part of us is wounded, angry, or ashamed. Regression to connect with this state is also therapeutic, as it allows you to own and understand more of yourself. So, in the sense that you were feeling angry and hurt with the lady at the mall, and felt yourself freezing in responding with the assertive statement (and boy so many of us come up with it too late!), you might be moving closer to times when you felt hurt, attacked, and helpless to defend yourself as a child. And of course along with those feelings might be an aggressive desire to act out. Some children actually do, some have a healthy way to deal with it, and others get ashamed of their anger and force it back down to play nice.
I guess I don't think of regression with what you described because you did act like "an adult". Maybe not the most assertive one, but still...you didn't destroy her cart or pull her hair. That's a good thing! But perhaps the desire to do that flashed into your head and felt threatening? Shoot, we all have that inside us, I would think. It's the acting on it that is not so mature.
Does this help at all?
gg
Posted by Shortelise on December 9, 2004, at 12:39:44
In reply to Re: is this regression? » Shortelise, posted by gardenergirl on December 8, 2004, at 23:36:58
thanks gg. I have to think on this.
ShortE
Posted by gardenergirl on December 9, 2004, at 20:35:33
In reply to Re: is this regression? » gardenergirl, posted by Shortelise on December 9, 2004, at 12:39:44
No problem. Please forgive me if I rambled on and on too much. I've been feeling much less articulate lately.
gg
Posted by Shortelise on December 9, 2004, at 21:14:19
In reply to Re: is this regression? » Shortelise, posted by gardenergirl on December 8, 2004, at 23:36:58
Thanks gg. What you wrote here is very clear.
What if my reaction as a child was to retreat? What if I didn't fight back at my mother when she hurt me? Would this then be regression?
I'm not meaning to argue. I'm asking what you think - you and anyone else who cares to comment! I find this interesting.
Thanks gg.
Shorte
Posted by cubic_me on December 10, 2004, at 5:51:45
In reply to Re: is this regression? » gardenergirl, posted by Shortelise on December 9, 2004, at 21:14:19
I was thinking the same Shortelise. My reaction was to retreat and keep quite too. It seems we didn't all have the 'normal' reactions in childhood. I'm unsure whether regression refers only to 'normal' actions of childhood or what each individual went through.
Thanks for your response GG, it was indeed very clear, thankyou.
Posted by gardenergirl on December 10, 2004, at 8:51:38
In reply to Re: is this regression? » gardenergirl, posted by Shortelise on December 9, 2004, at 21:14:19
> What if my reaction as a child was to retreat? What if I didn't fight back at my mother when she hurt me? Would this then be regression?
Well, not knowing enough about you and your usual way of functioning, it's kind of hard to answer that question. I guess I would view this not as regression per se, but as a maladaptive response that worked for you in childhood, but now can be more problematic. I wouldn't say you are regressing, but rather this is part of who you are and what you do. And that this is something that is fodder for therapy. Perhaps it could be considered regressing if your usual way of functioning involves you being more assertive and confronting conflict. Then, if you retreated in a given situation, I would want to look at it to see if retreat was a wise and appropriate choice or if it is somehow related to old ways of acting or old feelings.
>
> I'm not meaning to argue. I'm asking what you think - you and anyone else who cares to comment! I find this interesting.I don't think you are arguing at all. This is a tough question, and in some ways, it depends on how you define regression. There are lots of healthy reasons to regress as well as more defensive ones.
gg
Posted by Shortelise on December 10, 2004, at 13:05:23
In reply to Re: is this regression? » Shortelise, posted by gardenergirl on December 10, 2004, at 8:51:38
Gotcha. That makes lots of sense, and it is something I have been working on with my shrink. In some circumstances I am able to react differently. That's good news.
But when those REALLY big hairy witches stand and spew venom, I don't know if I'll ever be able to react in a way I am happy with. I have another, oh, 40 years or so to work on it. Wait, today is my grandmothers 105th birthday ... maybe I have more like 55 years.Thanks gg.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on December 10, 2004, at 13:11:48
In reply to Re: is this regression? » Shortelise, posted by cubic_me on December 10, 2004, at 5:51:45
Glad this is interesting to you too, Cubic. My reaction to my mother was a matter of emotional survival. If I didn't toe her line, I'd get hurt. Not so much physically as emotionally. She withheld affection, I think.
My sister recently said to me "I (meaning herself) was a weird little kid. I thought it was bad to cry." When I said she hadn't come up with that herself, that she had LEARNED it, it was a shock to her.
ShortE
Posted by cubic_me on December 10, 2004, at 15:33:52
In reply to Re: is this regression? » cubic_me, posted by Shortelise on December 10, 2004, at 13:11:48
It seems we had a similar childhood emotionally. I still have trouble with crying, especially infront of people. By the time I was 14 I had worked out that this was because of my mother, but it took me until I was 20 to get any help with it.
It must be interesting seeing how your sister reacted to similar things to you during childhood - I'm an only child, I wonder what a sister of mine would have been like!
Posted by Dinah on December 10, 2004, at 20:21:01
In reply to is this regression?, posted by Shortelise on December 4, 2004, at 12:55:30
We talked about it some, and I still don't really understand what he meant. Or if he still means it. We also talked about it in terms of dissociative defense mechanisms, and it fits that way just as well, and makes more sense to me.
At any rate, it's on my list to talk about again, so maybe someday I'll understand it.
There seem to be certain psychological concepts that I just can't grasp. Is that because they're too close to home? Or are they just the trigonometry of psych?
This is the end of the thread.
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