![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 35. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on March 27, 2004, at 20:23:23
In reply to Re: juicey funny bits abt u therapists wife » Fallen4myT, posted by lonelygirl on March 27, 2004, at 19:36:32
I'm ugly and fat, and my husband loves me just fine. And I'm not kidding. I've got skin tags around my eyes that look just like warts. All the little capillaries around my face broke the other day so I'm all blotchy. I've got little beady close together eyes and a few chins. Oh, and don't forget the thin hair.
People who don't know me well tend not to notice me at all, which I see as a sort of advantage to being fat and ugly. But it doesn't mean I'm not loveable. My husband loves me and finds me sexually attractive. My son thinks I look just right for a Mom. I've got a handful of really good friends. And my therapist feels comfortable with me and I think is at least a bit fond of me.
I think you overestimate the looks thing. And that's coming from an ugly fat person. I do know that there is prejudice out there, but people who come to know you can still like you.
As for your personality, you don't show any hideous traits in your posts. :) You seem intelligent and appear to care about the feelings of other people. What's not to like?
But if there are things about the way you act that you'd like to change, that's ok too. Isn't that why we're all in therapy?
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 27, 2004, at 23:04:13
In reply to Re: juicey funny bits abt u therapists wife » Fallen4myT, posted by lonelygirl on March 27, 2004, at 19:36:32
Lonelygirl you have a bad self imagineesteem. I am thin and pretty but my husband is mean to me and does not really love me, he hits me he calls me a retard and more. Looks do not guarentee love. You say youre not smart but you are I read what you write and youre way smarter than me, youre also very funny and kind to a lot of people on the boards. Britney Spears looking would maybe get you a shallow guy you say but..thats not love. The inner person is what in the end gets loved.Ken may marry Barbie but he falls in love and cheats with Midge :)
Posted by lonelygirl on March 28, 2004, at 14:43:02
In reply to Re: looks » lonelygirl, posted by Dinah on March 27, 2004, at 20:23:23
I hate being so fat! I think that most of my problems stem from the fact that I am fat. I think that if I were thin and good-looking, I wouldn't be so shy, I would be able to make friends, I could get a boyfriend, I could do a lot of things. I swear, everybody hates fat people. And thin people think it is SOOO simple -- "Just eat less and exercise more!" The instant people look at me, they see that I am fat and form so many judgments. They immediately assume that I am a stupid, lazy loser (and I suppose they are right, but they don't even give me a chance to make them think otherwise). I think it is telling that any time anyone insults me, they invariably include a crack at my weight. I'm never just a bitch -- I'm a "Fat, ugly bitch." I'm not just lazy -- I'm a "Fat, lazy slob."
It is bad enough when people say it to my face, but it is almost worse when they don't say it, because I know they are thinking it. My brothers are always rating the looks of every female they see, from classmates to waitresses to random people they see anywhere, and they always make fun of fat girls. I read a message board at another site where people post their "rants," about anything that bugs them, and nearly half of them are about how much they hate fat people, especially fat people who dare to wear clothes that show their bodies at all, who dare to go swimming, who dare to go to a fast food restaurant, etc. They literally say that just the sight of fat people makes them SICK. One of them said something like, "If you're fat, don't go out in clothes that only thin people should wear. As a matter of fact, if you're fat, just don't go out at all. Please, think of the children." I am not mad at them for saying it, because they are just being honest, and even if they didn't say that, they would still think it.
People also write in their LiveJournals and stuff all the time stuff like, "Ew, this nasty fat person sat next to me today," etc. I am in a Yahoo groups list for avoidant personality disorder, and someone wrote a post recently about how she went to a conference and a disgusting fat woman sat next to her, and she was so disgusted by this woman, her clothes, how her stomach moved when she laughed, etc., and how she hoped nobody would think she was associated with the fat woman. She later found out that this fat woman was a writer she admired. Her point was that she was ashamed of judging a book by its cover, but do you know how hard it is to go through life knowing that everywhere you go, that is how people think of you, even before they know who you are? Sometimes I feel so overwhelmed just at the thought of leaving my room because I know that everyone who sees me is totally repulsed by me.
Anyway, I am very sensitive about this and I don't like talking about it. I don't think I could talk about it with my psychologist, but that's ok, because I don't think even HE wants to talk about it. He says stuff sometimes like, "I think you see yourself as not being very smart or likeable..." and he doesn't say the obvious, which is that I see myself as ugly and disgusting, because that is the one thing that he can't even bring himself to PRETEND to disagree with. He can find reasons tell me that he thinks I am not stupid, but I don't think he could even say with a straight face that I am not absolutely, appalingly, disgustingly ugly. I bet he has a hard time just sitting there looking at me for a whole hour. I get the feeling that he doesn't even want to get into talking about how my being ugly is a problem because there is just nothing he can say but, "You're right, you're revolting, and I don't see how you can expect anyone to like you if you look like that."
I decided that I want to get gastric bypass surgery, which is very expensive but can be covered by insurance. I am on my parents' insurence, since I am a full-time student. Initially, they said NO WAY, but I convinced them to go to an information session about it and they said they would let me get the surgery. But our insurance has very strict policies about it, especially on trying other ways of losing weight. Although I have been on at least a dozen diets, and gone to two dietitians, I have gotten fatter and fatter over the last 10 years. I actually sort of blame the first time my mom made me go on a diet, even though I was only about 10 pounds overweight (I would die of happiness if I woke up tomorrow only 10 pounds, or even 20 pounds, overweight), for starting the cycle of yo-yo dieting that has led to my being so hugely fat today, but I think I am being dishonest with myself in blaming that, and I know that it is just my fault and nobody else's. Anyway, nothing that I have done counts for the insurance requirements, which are to be under a physician-supervised diet for a 6-month period within the past 2 years. When I found out about this, some time in June of last year, I decided to go to a doctor and go on a diet for 6 months and then I could either get the surgery or continue with the diet if it was working. My last doctor had moved away so I didn't really have a doctor, so I asked my mom if she could find a doctor who is covered by our insurance. She said she would, but she took so long that I didn't get an appointment until 2 days before I had to go back to school (in another state). That doctor wasn't even any help -- she just referred me to another doctor, but I couldn't get an appointment with him before I left to go back to school. Then my mom said she would look into finding a doctor who is covered on our insurance in the area where I go to school. Well, she never did, so the time has passed and I haven't done my 6 months of dieting, so I can't get the surgery any time soon. I am kind of pissed because I have this feeling that my mom is doing it on purpose so I can't get the surgery. I guess it's my fault because I should just find a doctor myself, but I don't really understand how it works with our insurance so I have to get her to find a doctor for me.
Hmm, this is so long and rambling that I sort of forgot my point... It is just this enormous burden to walk around knowing that everyone who sees me instantly hates me. I even hate having my psychologist see me because I know how disgusting I look to him while I am sitting there so attracted to him. Even when people are nice to me, I can't stand it because I know that they are just thinking about how disgusting and fat I am.
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2004, at 15:01:21
In reply to Being fat, posted by lonelygirl on March 28, 2004, at 14:43:02
I'll admit that's true of some people, maybe even many people. But... It can't possibly be true of all people because it's not true of me. You just need to surround yourself with people like me. :D And as much as I'd like to think so, I'm not really unique.
Perhaps you should include that in your factors of where to move. I understand some areas of the country are a lot more tolerant of heavy people than other areas of the country.
Posted by Racer on March 28, 2004, at 15:44:17
In reply to Being fat, posted by lonelygirl on March 28, 2004, at 14:43:02
Listen, this is one of my soapboxes, so bear with me if I go too far. It's only because I care so much about the issue.
First of all, I can name at least half a dozen beautiful, sucessful Fat Chicks -- not all of them opera stars, either. Alison Moyet is one of my very favorite singers, and she is hardly ever shown in photographs because of her weight. She is BEAUTIFUL, and wouldn't have that amazing voice without a big housing for those pipes. The singing Wilson sister from Heart, same story. What's so sad is that she listened to so many people saying, "be thin!" instead of listening to her voice on the records. Kirstie Alley is getting a lot of cr*p right now, and was her name Delta Burke? Cameras do weird things to bodies, so don't let the TV or movie screen make you think you know what "real people" should look like. When the show Cybil was on the air, I ran into Cybil Shepard at an event and her bottom was -- ahem -- much larger than you'd have imagined from watching the show, but her body overall was very strangely proportioned from dieting to fit an unnatural mold. Lucy Lawless -- Xena, Warrior Princess -- who looked so voluptous onscreen was thin as a rail, and barely this side of flat chested.
Here's Racer's Rules of Weight Management:
1. If you can walk around your life, you're doing OK.
2. If you can't walk from home to class to the library, fix that and don't worry about what you look like.
Don't forget that a lot of psychoactive drugs make you gain tons of weight. I'm the Queen -- nay, the EMPRESS -- of weight gain from anti-depressants, from 35 to 70 pounds depending on the drug. Go ahead, ask me how that affects my life? I dare you. Of course, from a doctor's point of view, well, "just eat less and exercise more..." Fortunately, doctors are starting to get the message. Unfortunately, it's taking them an awfully long time! If you're medicated, check with your doctor.
About the gastric bypass: do what you can to bypass the surgery! Believe it or not, the best results from diet plans come through Weight Watchers: people who complete their programs not only lose weight consistently, they also maintain the weight loss. Slow loss is the rule, and stick to it.
For very heavy people, check with your doctor first, and then follow Racer's Rules again:
1. Diet or don't, but EXERCISE! If you're really heavy, try walking 20 minutes three times a week. And wear a cute outfit, and thumb your nose at anyone who looks at you funny. Remember, some folks like chubby chicks -- and you're welcome to be totally sexy while overweight. I, personally, give you permission. Once you can manage a brisk, 20 minute walk three times a week, think about what sort of exercise you might like to do next: swimming is good, although it probably won't lead to weight loss, but the idea isn't to lose weight so much as to learn to feel at home in your body.
My theory is that sexy fat chicks are those who like living in their bodies, who have taken a good look in the mirror and decided that this is their body and they'll keep it rather than rejecting it. Think about how that fits with your self-image: could you be turning people away with your own self-rejecting attitude?
By the way, during my college days, I got a lot of cruel comments about my weight, too. My pdoc says that I wasn't anorexic, you know, since my periods never stopped, but I was down to about 75% of my healthy weight -- maybe a bit less -- and a number of people felt the need to tell me that seeing me distressed them greatly. "How can you go out looking like that? Don't you know how you look?" etc. People who are unhappy with themselves will always look for someone else to make unhappy. Too fat, too thin, too tall, too short, machts nichts -- they'll find something to criticise. Only one way to deal with them: ignore them, learn what you like in you, and laugh at the idiots out there with nothing better to do than make fun of others.
It also helps if you can make one friend to sit around and make fun with: "look at that skinny blonde chick, think hugging her is like hugging a shopping cart or what?" Humor, especially sick humor, can be a godsend. (Just don't sit around the ice cream parlor, right?)
If it weren't for the whole anonymous thing here, and the geography and the age difference, I would be your friend, so don't sell yourself short. Learn to live in your skin and stop rejecting that same skin. Your body wants you to like it, so that it can be happy. Once you give it what it needs, you'll be happier, too.
Good luck -- hell, BEST luck.
Posted by lucy stone on March 28, 2004, at 16:43:10
In reply to Hey, some folks like chubby chicks! » lonelygirl, posted by Racer on March 28, 2004, at 15:44:17
I've been lurking here for a month or so and finally decided to post since this topic is so close to my heart. I can feel your pain, lonelygirl, and I'm another fat woman. I am doing a psychoanalysis, four times a week on the couch, and I'm currently entering my 4th year. We are JUST NOW getting around to my weight and body issues. For me, these issues are the hardest ones to talk about, much harder than my abusive father, the early loss of my mother, and all the other stuff that causes me problems in my life. I am not only fat, I am very tall (over 6 feet), which makes me very conspicous. That combo has been very bad for me in many ways. I was bullimic for 20 years and finally stopped with extensive therapy. I was pushed into getting help when my daughter developed anorexia, I felt like a virus that had contaminated her with my eating issues. My very kind and patient analyst helped me stop even though we never directly talked about it. You are not alone in your pain, many of us share it. I don't think you are digusting at all, you are very smart and thoughtful. You are so articulate, I would also be your friend if I could.
Posted by lonelygirl on March 28, 2004, at 17:36:52
In reply to Re: Hey, some folks like chubby chicks! » Racer, posted by lucy stone on March 28, 2004, at 16:43:10
Hi Lucy... I'm glad you decided to post and I hope you will continue to do so. I am sorry to hear that you know how I feel :-( I don't know why it is such a hard thing to talk about, but it really is, isn't it?! I can understand why you are self-conscious about being tall, although I am at the opposite end of the spectrum -- I am about 5'2" and I feel like this short, fat, round blob. I wish I could be a little taller so it would make me at least a little more proportionate.
Well, I would say "welcome," but I guess you have been here lurking longer than I have been posting!
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2004, at 18:19:36
In reply to Re: Hey, some folks like chubby chicks! » Racer, posted by lucy stone on March 28, 2004, at 16:43:10
I'm glad you decided to post. :)
You know, my therapist rarely mentions my weight or ummmmm.... lack of beauty unless I mention it first. Of course, he's a big guy himself. And when I do mention it, he's very quick to remind me that it was the medications that put on the weight.
The medications didn't strip me of good looks, though.
I wonder if it's a tough thing for therapists to talk about in general. Maybe we greater than size ten and/or less than attractive clients should get together and write a book for therapists. Let them know the best ways to breach that subject.
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 28, 2004, at 20:38:29
In reply to Re: Welcome » lucy stone, posted by Dinah on March 28, 2004, at 18:19:36
Posted by Karen_kay on March 28, 2004, at 21:13:54
In reply to Being fat, posted by lonelygirl on March 28, 2004, at 14:43:02
If you think you are beautiful, you are! I'm rather tall, and used to weigh quite a bit when I was in high school (did I just admit that? Shhh! You won't tell, will you :) And I used to hate myself. I moved out on my own and literally starved myself. I dropped 80 lbs and still thought I was fat and ugly. And it's because growing up my mother used to tell me I was. (Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my mother dearly) But, I've realized that even though I don't have a perfect body I still am beautiful. Am I'm quite sure you too are beautiful. My best friend in the world has put on some weight. But, she is one of the sexiest women I know. Beauty isn't determined by dress sizes or hair color or any thing like that dear. Beauty is something that just exudes from a person. Once You know that you are beautiful, everyone else knows it too! That I promise.
I posted one of my favorite poems on Social that really helps me when I'm having one of those "ugly" days, and also when I'm not. It's under the subject "Dee, Falls, Daisy and Cubic" (Sorry, not so good at providing links).. You should read it. It's very empowering. don't just read it once, read it a few times. I have it hanging on my fridge. I used to use it as a make-shift CBT of sorts. I'd read it until I believed it. And I honestly do now. I hope that you will too!
Posted by Racer on March 29, 2004, at 9:38:58
In reply to Re: Hey, some folks like chubby chicks! » lucy stone, posted by lonelygirl on March 28, 2004, at 17:36:52
One of the most drop dead sexy chicks I've ever known *admitted* to being over 170# at just under 5'0", and we're talking drool cups handed out to the audience when she was on stage. Weight really doesn't have much to do with beauty or sexiness or any of those things. Attitude has EVERYTHING to do with it. This woman simply WAS sexy as all get out.
And if you believe you're carrying around a beautiful aspect, maybe lovely eyes, pretty hands, whatever, you'll convince everyone else of it, too. Trust me on this, since I've been trying to figure this out for a lot longer than you've been alive! Again, I give you permission to be beautiful at any size -- and with all the problems I've got right now, you don't want to invalidate me by not taking advantage of that permission, do you? (Hey, that sort of guilt thing works on me when I'm being hard on myself. Figured it was worth a try...)
Healing thoughts with you, and with Lucy Stone, too.
Posted by lonelygirl on March 29, 2004, at 9:45:22
In reply to Re: Hey, some folks like chubby chicks! » lonelygirl, posted by Racer on March 29, 2004, at 9:38:58
I weigh more than that. And I don't have any beautiful aspects. Actually, you know how everybody has "pretty eyes?" It's one of the most generic compliments you can possibly give because it's true for everyone. Well, I actually have ugly eyes. One eyelid opens more than the other, so they look really lopsided and I look like I'm retarded. Also, my eyelids have these ugly veins on them that look horrible. My hands are hideous. They are so fat and disgusting, you would have to see them to believe it. I cut my fingernails really short, too, so they look bad... There is nothing beautiful about me.
Posted by obSession on March 29, 2004, at 12:07:16
In reply to Re: juicey funny bits abt u therapists wife, posted by Apperceptor on March 27, 2004, at 15:59:30
To A yes I would be as intrested if my T had a boyfriend , the significant others in a T's life I find very inretsing to me , I am not sexually attracted to me T nor do I have any level of erotic transferance .....yet I really am intrigued by the significant others in his life MAYBE IT IS BECAUSE THEY GET MORE OF HIS MIND THAN I DO!
Posted by platinumbride on March 30, 2004, at 5:11:53
In reply to Being fat, posted by lonelygirl on March 28, 2004, at 14:43:02
Oh, Lonelygirl.....
I can relate to so many of the things you said.
I also think that it is pathetic as well as unfair that we live in a society that so reveres the thin and is repulsed by the overweight. It is almost as if not being normal weight is a mortal sin! And yes, it does make one want to crawl into one's own shell and be avoidant.....Regarding the matter of your shrink:
I think you should bring it up! It is YOUR dollar being spent in there, and this is clearly a major problem for you. My guess is that the shrink (if he/she is any good) is waiting for YOU to bring it up so that you can have a good cry and a breakthrough, or whatever......
Losing weight only happens when one is ready deep in ones soul to make a committment to it.....not a moment before! I had such a time 10 years ago...Since that time (guess I kept it off for 5 years) it has been one struggle after the next with no results past about 7 or 8 lbs. But I KNOW it won't happen again until I am dead focused on it. Until then, I get fatter...fatter than I ever imagined possible for me.
I wish I could take those people who are phobic and grossed out by fat and give them all a lesson in compassion. I wish they could spend one day in the shoes of a fat person! Their derision only makes me want to stay in the house more and exercise like - NEVER!
Anyway, talk it over with your psych. It might be a really good thing to do.......Diane
Posted by EmmyS on March 30, 2004, at 6:17:04
In reply to Hey, some folks like chubby chicks! » lonelygirl, posted by Racer on March 28, 2004, at 15:44:17
Many, many, men who love lovely chubby ladies!
Posted by Racer on March 30, 2004, at 8:37:53
In reply to Re: Being fat, posted by platinumbride on March 30, 2004, at 5:11:53
Heheheh, I saw something about this on some talk show a few years ago, maybe Oprah. They took a skinny chick who made fun of fat people, put her in a fat suit, and sent her out into the world. She came back to the studio so miserable, having experienced the sort of treatment she'd been dishing out. I don't know if anyone who needed to see this took in the meanings, but it certainly changed her world.
When she came in, she was very confident about herself, believed herself beautiful and a wonderful human being. She also believed that making disparaging comments about fat people was perfectly all right -- nothing like racism or anything like that. They filmed her out on the street, and within minutes she turned into a scared, miserable human being. The looks people gave her hurt her, the comments they made behind her back stung, and she came back with a different view of the world. I hope it lasted, too.
It really is sad. And it's wrong. Again, this is a Soapbox Issue for me, so I'm going to keep this short rather than bore everyone, but people have a very, very skewed idea of what a healthy weight is. Those supermodels represent less than 8% of the population in body type. And that's a very young 8%, as well as a not very healthy portion for most people who emulate them. (And the Kate Moss look is based on the ultimate in ill health: heroin addiction. I'm not saying she was a junkie, just that the look was based on how junkies look. Is that what we want women to strive for?) The average numbers right about now for American women are somehting like 5'4" and 146 pounds. The mean is up there, too. Any individual's Ideal Healthy Weight is INDIVIDUAL -- it's the weight at which that individual is healthy and functions as well as possible.
That said, I also think exercise is good for everyone. Not gym based, necessarily, just anything that feels good and gets the body moving. When I've got the energy, I turn on my stereo and dance in this living room. Or I'll walk someplace instead of driving. Exercise doesn't have to be dull or hard, it can be as pleasant as a walk in the park, or chasing a frisbee with a dog. And the more exercise you do, the more energy you'll have to do more. Getting started is always the hardest part.
For someone who doesn't believe me, think about walking a Labyrinth if there's one around you, or walking through a museum or acquarium, or any other exhibition hall. Walk farther than you feel as if you can, and then do it again for the next four days. By day four, you should be able to walk the same distance without trouble.
Good luck, and I hope this helps someone.
Posted by Racer on March 30, 2004, at 8:37:56
In reply to Re: Hey, some folks like chubby chicks! » Racer, posted by lonelygirl on March 29, 2004, at 9:45:22
Listen, there is something beautiful about you and you're not listening to us or you'd have heard it already: what you share with us here is a beautiful personality. I know I'm trying to get that across to you, and it seems as if others are, too. We can't see you, so all we know is your personality as shown here. Many of us think the parts of you apparent here are beautiful, which is why we answer you so frequently. That's not like saying, "oh, but she has a pretty personality," which is only said by people who can see you in person. That's like, "Wow! Here's someone I'd like to know."
As for the specific factors you mentioned, I too am uneven in most parts of my body: one eye is more open than the other; one very large, droopy breast is larger than the other; I've got huge, keloid surgical scars all over my body; I've got a big, pot belly that never goes away; and my upper leg bones stick way out to the side, making it look as if I've got saddle bags you could pack for a month's vacation. That's not to mention the other middle aged changes to my body, like droopy upper arms, chicken wattle neck, and dry, wrinkly skin with acne. Now go ahead, ask me if I worry about my looks? Not much. Sure, all that stuff bothers me to a lesser or greater extent, but I don't much worry about it. Nor do I worry much about my nose most of the time -- the same nose that my cousin says doesn't have character, it has a full cast! It's still my nose. (Unfortunately, it's attached to my sinuses -- but that's a whole nother story...)
lonelygirl, you do have beauty, but you need to stop worrying so much about it to see it. Sorta backwards, huh? Trust me on this one, if you want other people to see that beauty, think about how you bring it out here. Think about what your passions are, and focus on them. Anyone who discusses his or her passions Is Beautiful to anyone who'd matter in your life.
I really wish I could help you gain confidence to step back and see your own beauty -- or at least all the elements that make you popular here. Sure, we're all whacko, but we're also the self-selected Amazing Whackoes and we all seem to like you. I hope that helps sometimes for you, and that you can learn to draw strength from it and start showing the rest of the world what you show us.
Good luck
Posted by platinumbride on March 30, 2004, at 11:02:26
In reply to Yes there is something beautiful about you! » lonelygirl, posted by Racer on March 30, 2004, at 8:37:56
Racer, I will second everything you said about LonelyGirl.....
I also want to acknowledge the beauty of spirit YOU are showing as well
I don't know if this is helpful to lonelygirl, but before I got married last year (YES, SOMEONE, A GREAT SOMEONE WANTED TO MARRY ME AND MY 240 LBS!!!) I dated an anthropologist who reminded me that in many societies, past and present, it was the LARGE woman who was/is considered attractive. In one ancient society in particular, they worshiped, and made a sculpture that still exists today called "The Venus of Willendorf". Look it up and check it out....She is really big; folds and all....In so many ways we are slaves to consumerism and the ideal of the past and previous century in Western culture.
It doesn't help when one walks into a restaurant full of "the beautiful people", but it does help sometimes when we are alone and thinking and hating ourselves, to see it all in a different light.
Lonelygirl, if you haven't already, take a Women's Study class when you are ready to, and perhaps explore this on your own and submit it as a project or paper. No one will have to know but the professor. If this is too mortifying forget I brought it up.
I hope that some day soon I will be able to get the focus again needed to lose the 100 lbs extra that I carry on my 5'1 frame...I will be pulling for you as well. It CAN be done...I have seen it...but never until we are ready.
Diane
Posted by Racer on March 30, 2004, at 12:18:57
In reply to Re: Yes there is something beautiful about you! » Racer, posted by platinumbride on March 30, 2004, at 11:02:26
The Venus of Willendorf is only one of the famous Venus figures, there are dozens, many quite beautiful, ALL quite large women. They represent Female Abundance -- a concept that is way too frightening for many today.
Here's a Women's Study perspective on female body types:
If you look carefully at what is considered "attractive" in a woman, and consider that particular feature applied to a man, you'll discover something rather enraging: those slightly opened lips, for example, that are considered so sexy on a woman -- are considered a sign of gross stupidity in a man! This is not accidental, it's partly a question of reining in any power in women, and partly a case of Domestication of women. As long as it is possible to pressure women into being the equivalent of stupid men, women will have no real power in the world. The domestication issue enters in because a domesticated animal most resembles an immature individual of the wild parent species. Dogs are like immature wolves, for instance. So, that body type that everyone seems to be after, the lean, boneless 14 year old boy figure, that is a domesticated female -- an immature male.
I had a cousin, now dead, who used to say that he wanted to open a school for 18 year old deaf and mute blond gymnasts. "The 18 year old blond gymnast part is self-explanatory; they may as well be deaf, since I don't want to talk to them; and they'd better be mute since I sure don't want to listen to them!" He thought that was cute. It is funny, but it's also sad. Think carefully about that for a while, then read it again and think it over a little longer.
So, as a Real Live Grown Up Woman, what the hell do I want with any man who is only attracted to immature individuals? What, he doesn't have anything to say to a grown up? He's not confident enough in his own views to discuss them with an equal partner? I'm as shallow as the next one, and I've certainly gone out with men who were so gorgeous I didn't care how dumb they were -- but that was only for fun and frolic. After all, there are two kinds of men in this world: those you marry, and those you -- well {{wink wink}} -- don't marry. For a life's partner, though, he's got to have enough on the ball to be a full partner with me. If he wants a 14 year old boy in bed, he can get a real one. I'm a grown woman, and scary as that is, he'd better learn to love it if he wants to be with me.
There. That's a little of my diatribe. I could go on, but only if I go find a shoe to bang on the desk...
Posted by platinumbride on March 30, 2004, at 18:17:22
In reply to Venus figures » platinumbride, posted by Racer on March 30, 2004, at 12:18:57
Well put indeed....
I mentioned only the Willendorf because it depicts a woman, no, a goddess who is really large by today's standards. And yet, once upon a time, this was a societal IDEAL!!! Perspective, n'est ce pas?
D
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 1, 2004, at 17:06:51
In reply to Venus figures » platinumbride, posted by Racer on March 30, 2004, at 12:18:57
> The Venus of Willendorf is only one of the famous Venus figures...
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups not about psychology or psychotherapy to Psycho-Social-Babble. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20040331/msgs/331457.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by feelin'loved on April 15, 2004, at 21:11:51
In reply to Re: Venus figures » Racer, posted by platinumbride on March 30, 2004, at 18:17:22
Just to further reinforce what everyone has been telling you- since the time I was 18 it seemed like everyone thought I was too fat- my own family sat down and told me "You are alone because no one will ever love you if you look like this"- well I recently proved them wrong. I'm not saying it's easy- i have known many a jerk and I have been rejected many a time because I won't have sex with guys I just met- apparently they think this makes me unworthy of their time. Just when I was about to give up I met and amazing man- he treats me like I am a godess- he told me I was beautiful and he could stare at me for hours- he respects me, and after two months of dating has never pushed for sex (we're both in our 20's)- he takes whatever I am willing to give and is grateful for it. There are still decent guys out there who find beauty in people who can't even see the beauty in themselves. Your guy will come along- good things are worth waiting for. Good luck
Posted by ramsea on June 30, 2004, at 4:49:57
In reply to Hey, some folks like chubby chicks! » lonelygirl, posted by Racer on March 28, 2004, at 15:44:17
Great post. And so true. I actually exercise 3-4 hrs. everyday (biking, walking hills, yoga) and I eat a normal diet of 1400-1800 cals. I remain obese on my meds, though I have lost weight since stopping the ADs. Whenever I am not taking psychotropic meds my weight is totally good, right where the chart says it should be, and I don't exercise nearly as much and I eat about the same.
I am not a binge-type anyway, except when I took Lexapro and Celexa which caused me to sincerely sleepwalk and eat lots of carbos without recognition. It was too weird, and freaked my husband out too. He didn't believe it could be a side effect of a drug, but some behavior problem. However, when I dropped the ADs this behavior totally stopped without my trying anything or even thinking anything. It was an uncontrollable drug side effect--end of story.
Why don't people speak out about all the various malfunctions that can cause massive weight gain in people who are not gluttons, and who in act eat less and exercise more than the majority of average sized people around them?
I am aware some people do overeat compulsively, but the fact is not all overweight people do. Also, some people are seemingly built by nature to be bigger than most people--you can tell fromthe head size, shoulders, etc. A girl with big proportions that she can't change through normal weight maintenance--a truly bigboned girl---is in for trouble if she doesn't accept her bigness and make the most of it. The big guy just ends up being a football hero, or a bouncer, or considered manly. Mind you, I am not referring to fatness here--just muscle and bone structure. Some human beings are built more widely--there's nothing to be done for it. No surgery or diet will change this.
What you said about proportions is very true, too. I have also seen a certain famous women in person and was shocked at the strangeness of her well-renowned shape. I know that surgical adjustment in the breasts, a few ribs taken out,and liposuction here and there, created a little bubbly haired woman that looked very topheavy, like she'd fall over any moment fom the weight of her blown-out bosom. On camera, she looks wonderful. In person, quite honestly she looked freakish.
Role models for women these days are not far removed from the category of torture victim. I often think of how the Chinese used to bind the feet of higher status little girls so that their feet wouldn't grow up with them. Throughout childhood they would experience excruciating pain as the bones tried to grow against the enforced resistance. Dainty feet would result---considered beautiful---but the woman would never be able to walk well for herself.
We use anaesthesia these days, but surgery results in wounding and sometimes worse. And what of the constant mental pain of feeling your body is inferior? IMO we "bind our own feet" by insisting that our bodies should look like a "models" or some other entertainment star.
A rich, independent, academic woman friend of mine subjected herself to liposuction on her thighs. Not being catty, but she was in bed for several weeks, bleeding all over the place--had to get a doctor--it was a mess. The final result--I and some others who know her well would never say this to her, but her legs look funny. She still has nature's own hips and buttocks, and she is very shapely and beautiful. But it looks weird when you see the sudden dip in her shape--nature had a better vision. She had thighs that matched her hips. Only terrible disease will give her a skinny figure, she is voluptuos and very attractive in the eyes of most people, but she is not thin. She has too much muscle packed on a wider skeletal frame to ever achieve a dainty Courtney Cox type shape. I wish I lived in a world where that was okay, or even better than just okay.
It's scary to live in a world which would intimidate this stong and privleged woman to feel inadequate enough to undergo risky and ultimately counterproductive invasive procedures in an effort to look like an image in a fashion magazine or a TV sitcom.
Posted by TofuEmmy on June 30, 2004, at 9:21:58
In reply to Re: Sermon on the Mountainous Fatties, posted by ramsea on June 30, 2004, at 4:49:57
Will you marry me? Or at least hug me a lot????
Emmy
Posted by ramsea on June 30, 2004, at 17:04:14
In reply to Re: Sermon on the Mountainous Fatties » ramsea, posted by TofuEmmy on June 30, 2004, at 9:21:58
(((((((((((((huggzzzz)))))))))))))and thanks for making me laugh :)
This is the end of the thread.
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