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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 38. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by terrics on March 4, 2004, at 15:16:10
Do any of you think that women who have no kids are more self centered and have more time to dwell on their mental health? Or perhaps they have no kids because their mental health is so flawed? If anyone here is a little older and childless I would really like to hear from you. I would also like to hear all comments from everyone; female, male, childless or not.
Posted by Elle2021 on March 4, 2004, at 15:32:29
In reply to women without children, posted by terrics on March 4, 2004, at 15:16:10
I think wanting to have children is pretty innate. When my mental health isn't doing so well, I don't want them out of fear that I wouldn't do a good job taking care of them. When I feel better, I want them really badly. The only thing I fear is that they would turn out like me...
I think kids are definitely a distraction. But, if you aren't really busy with things, you have a lot of extra time to ponder things about your mental health that maybe shouldn't be pondered...if you know what I mean. I do it...
I once listened to a debate over whether people who choose not to have children are selfish or not. I don't have any kids at the moment, but I don't have a husband either. Eventually I want to have them, but I have every intention of keeping an extra careful eye on their mental health.
Elle
Posted by gardenergirl on March 4, 2004, at 15:37:37
In reply to women without children, posted by terrics on March 4, 2004, at 15:16:10
Terrics,
I think there are so many reasons women don't have children. However I really don't connect it with self-centeredness or mental health. I suppose if a woman recognized that she did not want children for whatever reason, that is a gift to the potential child, not self-centered. Who wants to be raised by someone like that?On the other hand, I personally am just a late bloomer in all my developmental milestones. My husband and I would prefer to wait until I am done with school. Unfortunatly, I am 37 right now, and have my internship year to go. The clock is ticking. I am already dealing with potential infertility. Would some say I am self-centered for choosing to wait and perhaps lose out on having children the "natural way" so that I can pursue my dream, and also pursue my own mental health? Sure, I'm sure some would. But I don't want to be raising a child if I am not ready. And my husband isn't ready either. Going ahead and just having one would not be in our or the child's best interest.
And on the other hand, my mother had three children by the age of 30. She was and is quite self-centered to the point that at times we had to make dinner for ourselves. We were treated like little adults rather than kids. We had Domino's pizza for Christmas dinner two years in a row because she was unable to provide any kind of effort for her family, even on such a special day. Since she never played with us, she seemed to have plenty of time to dwell on something, whether it was mental health or what is questionable.
So I guess the short answer to your question is no, I don't think so.
I hope none of this is offensive. I think you touched a nerve for me. I have to admit, I think a lot about the consequences of waiting to have kids, but I never looked at it from this angle. Thanks for making me think!
gg
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on March 4, 2004, at 15:51:05
In reply to women without children, posted by terrics on March 4, 2004, at 15:16:10
I just turned 35 and have not heard tick ONE of my biological clock. I have no inclination to have kids. And I enjoy kids, it's not that I think they're awful or anything.
I do think there is something wrong with me for feeling like this. Like I have a flawed gene somewhere though. It seems so biologically rational for me to want kids and I just don't. I often feel like if I had kids I would worry a lot less about myself, but then I know I would worry a lot about my kids!
Posted by shortelise on March 4, 2004, at 16:17:40
In reply to Re: women without children, posted by Miss Honeychurch on March 4, 2004, at 15:51:05
Good question.
I chose not to have children because I thought I would be a horrible mother. I thought I'd raise screwed up children. My husband didn't want to have them because there is a genetic disorder in his family that his brother died from quite young.
I don't know exactly what it is to be selfsih, what it means. Everything seems pretty selfish to me. To have children can be selfish. If I had given in to my biological clock and had a few kids in my early 30's, it would not have been in their best interest, sooner it would have been me indulging that clock, that yearning.
Now that I am past my childbearing years, now that I have found some equilibrium, I wish I could have a child or two. Now I think I could raise a healthy person - or as healthy as anyone.
I ask myself about love a lot, what it means, how it feels, and if in itself it isn't inherently selfish. Why do we love? Why do we have children? Wasn't it here that someone asked what are "good" reasons to have a child? To venture an answer, a good reason to have a child would be to learn a new kind of love, one that compliments the love of marriage, and the love of self.
You didn't ask most of this, but it feels like a sort of logical progression - to my sometimes skewered logic!!
ShortE
Posted by fallsfall on March 4, 2004, at 16:57:12
In reply to Re: women without children, posted by shortelise on March 4, 2004, at 16:17:40
My mother would have chosen to not have children if she was born at a different time. But in the 50s and 60s women got married, had children, stayed home to raise them, and that is what she did. I was the 3rd (and last) child.
I'm not sure when she told me she wouldn't have had children - I think it was after I started having my own. I love my mother, and she loves me, but she does have severe emotional detachment issues which meant that she was emotionally neglectful of my sisters and me when we were growing up. I think that she didn't want to have kids because somehow she knew that she wouldn't be able to give them what they needed.
I'm glad that my children will feel more like they have a choice of having children or not.
Posted by EmmyS on March 4, 2004, at 20:30:47
In reply to women without children, posted by terrics on March 4, 2004, at 15:16:10
I didn't have kids for lots of reasons:
1) My mom was schizoaffective...very nutty lady. Bad genes. Really don't want to pass them on.
2) When a baby enters the room, I run for the nearest exit. I definately can't hold babies. Mom was severely depressed and had no desire to hold me. I guess she passed that on.
3) Stress make me nuttier. Kids are a lot of stress. I think kids would make me nuttier. That would be bad. I'd be nuts, the kids would have a nutty mom,...the cycle would continue.
So, no kids for me.
Posted by Rigby on March 4, 2004, at 21:11:24
In reply to women without children, posted by terrics on March 4, 2004, at 15:16:10
I never thought about having kids. Until I turned 38 and bought a house. Then I thought a kid would make me happy. And complete.
And so began one of the most intense and depressing periods in my life.
I picked a great gay guy as a sperm donor. And did about 18 months of inseminations. Nada. Frankly, I don't think I was probably real fertile when I was 28 let alone 38. I was miserable for a *long* period of time.
Then I thought we would adopt so I went that route.
But through it all--inseminations and adoption information gathering, emotionally something just didn't "feel right."
Eventually, about two years into it, I decided, purely gut-level, to abandon the adoption plan.
There was definitely a level of mourning throughout it all--very intense, very sad. It got so bad, so core deep sad that finanlly I had to tell myself that I either needed to get busy living or get busy dying. I chose the former. And by doing so, somehow, like clouds finally breaking, I had done it, I had made my peace. Which is all I ever kinda wanted anyway.
So I wouldn't take back the process simply for that peace. Granted, it was hard fought, but it's been peace nonetheless.
Posted by justyourlaugh on March 4, 2004, at 22:38:08
In reply to Re: women without children, posted by Rigby on March 4, 2004, at 21:11:24
i have kids...
they are not my distraction from self.
they are myself..
j
Posted by jdgjdg on March 4, 2004, at 22:55:21
In reply to women without children, posted by terrics on March 4, 2004, at 15:16:10
Wow, that is an interesting question. I am 29 myself and have no children. I don't believe it has anything to do with my selfishness or mental state. Many single women choose to finish their education and build a solid financial base before having children. I am 29 years old, have a master's degree, own my own home, and have a "nest-egg". This does not mean I am any more selfish and or mentally unstable than women my age who have children. If anything, I believe women who choose to have children before becoming emotionally, mentally, and financially secure are the ones who should think about their mental health.
Posted by jdgjdg on March 4, 2004, at 22:58:36
In reply to Re: women without children, posted by Miss Honeychurch on March 4, 2004, at 15:51:05
I don't think you are biologically flawed because you don't want children. You don't have to have children just because you are a woman. I admire you for not having children because society thinks you should. Jenn
Posted by All Done on March 5, 2004, at 0:35:43
In reply to women without children, posted by terrics on March 4, 2004, at 15:16:10
> Do any of you think that women who have no kids are more self centered and have more time to dwell on their mental health? Or perhaps they have no kids because their mental health is so flawed? If anyone here is a little older and childless I would really like to hear from you. I would also like to hear all comments from everyone; female, male, childless or not.
I don't necessarily know or believe that these two things, mental health and the decision to have or not have children, are related. That said, I will say that I worry/dwell on my mental health much more now than before I had my son. I need to be as healthy as I can be in order to take care of him and sometimes it's really difficult and I struggle.
Incidentally, I think the women I know that are childless by their own decision are some of the emotionally healthiest people. One gave a child up for adoption because she did not feel she was ready in many ways to raise a child. I think she is one of the most selfless people I've ever known. Another friend of mine chose not to have children and focus on her career. I believe this took a great deal of self-awareness on her part to make this decision.
Posted by missamor on March 5, 2004, at 0:49:12
In reply to Re: women without children » terrics, posted by All Done on March 5, 2004, at 0:35:43
i am in my mid 20's and have given the subject thought as well. i think my mothers generation had less options as far as choosing to be a mother or not. it seemed more their "american duty" or something. the reason less women are having babies is a result of many things.i think it has somewhat to do with a persons mental health, somewhat to do with selfishness in some cases, some simply do not want kids. but for whatever reason the world is working. i do not think it is every womans inherent duty to reproduce. there are plenty of women without children that spend their lives and energy in a very healthy productive manner. they add something to the world, and some woman can offer beautiful children to the world, which is essential as well. in my opinion when you are doing what is right for you it is easier, when you are not where you should be you constantly have battles to overcome. i guess my point is if we each live our lives, and are the strongest and bravest we can be (whether we bear children or not) we have added something needed and specail to the world. a child doesnt wont automatically fulfill any womans sense of existance. thats her job-
"don't compromise yourself. you're all you got."
~janis joplin
Posted by Dinah on March 5, 2004, at 0:55:24
In reply to Re: women without children » terrics, posted by All Done on March 5, 2004, at 0:35:43
Excellent point. A lack of selfishness in having or not having children comes from putting the welfare of the child before your own desires. Which could lead to a decision not to have a child as easily as a decision to have one.
I am so glad I waited until I was in my mid thirties. I would have been an awful Mom in my twenties.
Posted by tinydancer on March 5, 2004, at 1:48:57
In reply to women without children, posted by terrics on March 4, 2004, at 15:16:10
I have one child who was concieved when I was a teenager and the prevention method failed.
I have never though of women, men or married couples as being self centered in any way. The choice to have children or not have children is incredibly individual with enormous reasonings behind it. I also have never thought of mental illness as being a reason to discourage having a child. Even with a mental illness that doesn't mean one cannot be a loving parent, although one would have to evaluate one's ability to care for a child if they were often unable to function due to the mental illness.
I think having a child is a very serious responsibility and I applaud men and women who choose to wait to have children or not at all-that means they understand the responsibility and take it seriously.
For me, being pregnant was the most wonderful time of my life, when somehow my hormones tricked my brain into thinking I was no longer mentally ill. I struggle a lot being a mother but my will to live and desire to achieve something is made so much stronger by having a little one to look after. I would love to have more children but I don't know when I will be in a stable place to be able to again.
Posted by rainyday on March 5, 2004, at 7:32:02
In reply to Re: women without children, posted by tinydancer on March 5, 2004, at 1:48:57
I decided not to have children because my family is (I perceive) so dysfunctional that I did not want to perpetuate that particular gene pool. My older sister also chose not to have children (we never discussed our decisions until recently and she felt exactly the same). Both our brothers have kids. I am 42 years old and don't regret my decision - now because I'm in such a sorry state I can't take care of myself very well and couldn't fathom being responsible for another person too.
Posted by Crooked Heart on March 5, 2004, at 7:32:30
In reply to women without children, posted by terrics on March 4, 2004, at 15:16:10
> Do any of you think that women who have no kids are more self centered and have more time to dwell on their mental health? Or perhaps they have no kids because their mental health is so flawed?
hi terrics
No when I look around at all the people I know, there's just as much 'self-centredness' amongst those with children as those without! Also some of the most generous-spirited individuals I've ever come across have had no children. I can't see a link between mental health and having children either.I'm just glad that younger women nowadays seeem to be generally much less defensive about a decision not to have children.
Posted by terrics on March 5, 2004, at 18:28:16
In reply to Re: women without children » terrics, posted by Crooked Heart on March 5, 2004, at 7:32:30
Thank you all for such interesting comments. I do not have children and I agree that it does not make one particularly self-centered. I did worry about having children because of my mental health and my ability to take care of them. terrics
Posted by jdgjdg on March 5, 2004, at 20:25:17
In reply to Re: women without children, posted by terrics on March 5, 2004, at 18:28:16
Terrics, I applaud you for realizing that you may not be ready to have children yet. If you really want children(as I do someday), the time will come when you are ready. Jenn
Posted by Crooked Heart on March 6, 2004, at 6:02:38
In reply to Re: women without children, posted by terrics on March 5, 2004, at 18:28:16
> Thank you all for such interesting comments. I do not have children and I agree that it does not make one particularly self-centered. I did worry about having children because of my mental health and my ability to take care of them. terrics
I wish that my mother had felt that worry. All of my sibs as well as myself suffered a lot because of my mother's inability to look after us. The effects on us are still there decades later, although therapy has helped me a lot. It always felt that it was up to us to make her happy, but no matter how hard they try children can't cure their mother's clinical depression.
And now I suppose we do our duty towards our mother but you couldn't say that any of us are really fond of her. It's nobody's fault but it is a shame.
It's a courageous and generous decision not to have children because one felt that one might not be able to look after them properly.
Posted by confetti on March 6, 2004, at 13:51:29
In reply to women without children, posted by terrics on March 4, 2004, at 15:16:10
I never felt I had the energy to take care of myself, much less a child. When a baby/child screams or cries, it sends a lightning bolt through my whole system.
I've never felt weird for not having children. Other people are very good at making me feel that way though.
Posted by terrics on March 6, 2004, at 16:17:34
In reply to Re: women without children, posted by jdgjdg on March 5, 2004, at 20:25:17
thank you so much for your kind thought, but my child bearing days are long over. terrics
Posted by terrics on March 6, 2004, at 16:20:37
In reply to Re: women without children, posted by confetti on March 6, 2004, at 13:51:29
I don't feel weird either. Sometimes I feel sad though. I could not have taken care of kids. terrics
Posted by noa on March 6, 2004, at 20:03:36
In reply to women without children, posted by terrics on March 4, 2004, at 15:16:10
I'm in my forties and no children. I have always wanted to have children "someday". Then, in my thirties, depression hit hard and by the time I recovered I was in my forties! I think about having children, but still feel my life isn't stable enough for it--in many ways--emotionally, financially, being single, etc. etc.
This is a very very sad topic for me. I feel terrible loss about this. Maybe "someday" I will be able to adopt a child. The time for bearing my own is likely to be passed or nearly so, and I am not ready to rush into the process right now.
I try not to spend too much time dwelling on MH now that I'm doing better. When I was not doing well, it wasn't really a matter of dwelling on it, but the depression was really rather debilitating. The hypothetical question about whether I would have suffered depression that bad if I had been caring for a child or children? Who knows. I do usually feel better when around children and when I have to care for them, it is easier to be motivated than when just taking care of myself. But on the other hand, the depression also had the strong biological component and I think about how that would have affected my availablity if there had been a child in my life. I also was even less in a position to support a child anyway.
Well, all that is rather moot.
Since part of my life dream was someday having a family, when I came out of the coma of depression after a decade, I realized that at this stage of life, I might have to change what my life dreams are. This is very difficult. I'm left feeling at a loss--kind of "now what?"--and a loss for all the time and all those potentially childbearing years.
I definitly try not to dwell too much on all of this, either. But it comes to mind in one way or another almost every day. When it comes to mind, I usually only think about it breifly, and then put it aside.
Posted by noa on March 6, 2004, at 20:08:58
In reply to Re: women without children, posted by shortelise on March 4, 2004, at 16:17:40
The idea that not having kids is somehow selfish seems strange to me, too. I think it is rooted in older traditional society ideas of what a family is for that no longer apply.
People choose to have kids or not have kids for so many different reasons. Selfishness seems to me to just not be a relevant word in the matter.
BTW, there is a trend to use the word "child-free" rather than "childless", according to an article I read last year about couples who choose not to have children.
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