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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 64Bowtie on February 2, 2004, at 14:17:48
<<<About my attempt to show I was seeing something not very obvious.... The terms *absolute* and *oblique* need to be put back in the closet of my mind from which they escaped!!!
>>>As I said before, your post on Admin struck a chord with me.
>http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031120/msgs/296794.html
>In it you sounded as if you felt like an outsider on the Psychological Board, and I very much empathise with the outsider feeling. And you also seem to attribute your feelings to a particular reason, that Psychological Board posters are interested only in therapist stories, while you are interested in Growth. That is an inference from what you wrote, and could of course be incorrect, in which case I apologize.
<<<I am not diminishing your point by not discussing it sooner. No apology expected or needed. I was "shaking bushes" to see what might fall out. Puts me too close to PBC here. I'll save that "nuckle-dragging" style for group....
>>>On Social ( http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20040109/msgs/303073.html ), you wrote:
<"If people important to us avoid us because we complain all the time, when they recognize the change, they will be more available and less avoidant when we don't complain anymore. It's no secret that we have a better concept of self when we relate well with people."
>It is very true that relating well enhances self esteem, and that we would all prefer for others to be more available and less avoidant to us. And I'm sure you would agree that complaining is not the only source of avoidance and poor relations with others. Misunderstanding is another source.
<<<My bias is to suggest folks focus on slef-respect first. Without a good dose of self-respect, "other"-respect is impossible since you have no practice respecting anyone. Everybody starts out life being obligated. By there teens, they are good at obligatory thinking and obligation. Caveat: obligation is all one way! ...and we get the "short-end".
<Then in our teens, the "Genetic God" raises the stakes and gives us abilities little understood, by ourselves, and tragically, by our parents.
<What's supposed to happen till our death, we must honor our parents. I have no quarrel with that. But, if everyone senses that honor is an equal replacement word for the visceral notion of "obligation", then the whole thing about "growing up" gets messed up (in, at least, our heads and guts). I am not talking about a logical mistake here. I am saying that the "gut" voids any chance at logic, whenever it can!!!!!!!!!!!!! In this case, honor as a child needs to be updated to honor as an adult, which dramatically changes your parent/child relationship forever. ...and, along comes "respect", replacing obligation, independent of honor.
<If we haven't been encouraged to study respect in its contrast with obligation, we (I did) wake up at age 38 wondering why our lives are like a junk yard. My oldest son was only four, and so it hit home that something had to change.
<Geez. I'm 56 as of last Wednesday. I've been at this for 18 years not 15 years as I have shared in other posts.
<My Sons are 21 and 19 and working together at a FOX affiliate TV station in production. They may forever walk with an "Emotional Limp", however, I will be able to make a difference now. I was lost-in-space them days 18 years ago.
<Did I just go babbling off in some "oblique" angle???
<Back on point: along with self-worth, Self-esteem became an abstraction for me when I was still confused about obligation and respect. In all humility, I made many improvements in my life but didn't update to this concept until January 15, 2000. I was laying in bed sick with the flu and became very contemplative, I guess.
<Whatever else happened, I witnessed a "watershed" and/or "epiphany" event. My life changed dramatically, one more time.
>>>http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20031221/msgs/293417.html
>In this post, I inferred, and again I could be wrong and please tell me if I am, that you were curious that people didn't respond to what you considered to be a post that would evoke impassioned response. Your post to me, which didn't get a PBC, your post to JYL, which didn't get a PBC, and your post to Lar, which also didn't get a PBC, could also be seen as posts that had the intention of getting others to think in a different way through evoking a strong response. None of those posts broke the civility guidelines of this site, according to Dr. Bob. None merited a PBC. But all three of them resulted in a Please Do Not Post to Me, a request that could certainly be seen as others making themselves less available and more avoidant. Since you agree that having others be less available and more avoidant is undesirable (per your previous post), I was attempting to extend a hand to you in the form of greater understanding of where I, and possibly others are coming from.
<<<I accept all of that.... I OK with that.
>>>Psychobabble is not a place that really responds well to passion inducing posts.
<<<I've noticed....lol
>>>And I am also trying to make myself understood to you. I, and many people with borderline traits or borderline personality disorder, come from what Marsha Linehan calls a chronically invalidating environment. This makes me particularly sensitive to what might be seen as invalidation as an adult, and particularly receptive to those approaches that contain a fair amount of validation.
<<<If I have been guilty of diminishing your responses, please let me know. I give you the right and authority over me and my intensions here at Babble.
>>>When I see posts that seem to say that I'm not ready for change, or that I'm not interested in Growth, or that I should quit grumbling or complaining, or that the solution to my problems is to take responsibility to pull myself up by my bootstraps, or anything like that, I tend to feel that where I'm at now is not being validated.
<<<not a point of conflict: I was flailing until I got blocked. Now I am aware of the limits I BEST maintain herein. I been a whole lot more humble, don't ya' think?
>>>Your approach appears to be very direct and based on rationality. There are personality types that that approach may work very well with, but there are personality types who might feel invalidated by it.
<<<now this is where I always get into trouble: I can't wait for someone to give me their permission to accept and understand what I have in my heart. I have tried and failed by waiting.
<My bias is supported by the data that 80% of everybody are from dysfunctional families of origin rendering them only more or less dysfunctional by small degree. If sit around waiting till they accept and understand me, I would be known as a nice person, truly.
<I am here (on earth) for a reason. I sense that I can see this big picture called life clearly. I can impart my vision on anyone interested. But first I must risk being disharomious enough to be seen as distinct, or my vision fades into the "wallpaper" of life. Trust me.
<My catch 22 is that in order to make a difference which is my narrow definition of personal power, I must risk being different enough to be noticed. For those "personalities" you refer to, I can't wait for their approval of my presentation, or nothing will get done. My personal power will be a source of irritation to them, no matter anyway.
<Ask Anthony Robbins about his last 20 years of being mistaken those who defy his personal power with their arrogance rhetoric. Until NFL quarteback, Fran Tarkington started endorsing his methods, who heard of Anthony Robbins?
>>>in your own words "when they recognize the change, they will be more available and less avoidant".
<<<This was poised more for folks in their personal lives, not so much for any dynamics going on here at Babble. I don't consider anyone adopting me personally for adulation and less avoidance as a target project. I trust the universal appeal of my message independent of me and my bad habits.
>>>Now, I have put my head on the PBC block for you, and I hope you appreciate that my motivations are good and that I mean no disrespect to you or your approach. I am truly just trying to help, for whatever it's worth.
<<<Sweetums, your head is safe with me! I saw your picture.....lol
Rod
Posted by justyourlaugh on February 2, 2004, at 15:07:57
In reply to Dinah-New beginnings, posted by 64Bowtie on February 2, 2004, at 14:17:48
rod,
i hope you dont mind me posting to you.
your previous post to me made me feel "invalid"
it is true that i (others) like to complain and rant, it is a safe place here to do so..is it not?
i agree not all of us are concerned with "growth" at this point in time...i dont know about anyone else but getting through each day, each hour ,each minute is all i have the energy for right now..
s
Posted by lilmsbubbles07 on February 2, 2004, at 15:37:49
In reply to Re: Dinah-New beginnings » 64Bowtie, posted by justyourlaugh on February 2, 2004, at 15:07:57
i agree with just... that this is a safe place to let anger and out and u get some good support here..and that it is hard enogh to through each day ... at least it is for me
Posted by 64Bowtie on February 2, 2004, at 17:07:27
In reply to Re: Dinah-New beginnings » 64Bowtie, posted by justyourlaugh on February 2, 2004, at 15:07:57
Posted by justyourlaugh on February 2, 2004, at 17:16:18
In reply to I apologise for appearing to diminish (nm) » justyourlaugh, posted by 64Bowtie on February 2, 2004, at 17:07:27
Posted by 64Bowtie on February 2, 2004, at 17:58:49
In reply to Re: Dinah-New beginnings, posted by lilmsbubbles07 on February 2, 2004, at 15:37:49
lil,
I am hear because I want to be here. I don't ever want to sound like I am SOOOOOOOOOOO proud of my self that I somehow indicate that others here are "less than". I am cheering us all on by being here. Three cheers for all of us.
I have grown. If I can, so can anyone, I swear! Maybe today is for "baby-sized-steps". I had to take them myself, when I couldn't keep my life in balance. What's unpopular and not trusted is some one claiming that it can be done without a therapist and/or meds. Instead, I suggest you not trust someone who says that it's impossible to find wellness without a therapist and/or meds.
I hold a bias that the final steps along the path to wellness currently is seldom taken with the therapy and/or meds still going on. So an earmark of progress would be that when therapy and/or meds stop being so impactful, that will be the signal to seek out a "guide", a "coach".
Nothing is certain. There is no "all or nothing". Listen to one thing I guarantee: We are all born equipped with tools to overcome our troubles and strifes. People, time, and the environment may conspire to encourage bad habit building. We have good tools to replace bad habits with good ones. What we were not born with is a guide or mentor included. We must find one. Its easier as adults. Children are so bound by parents that mentors for children must be very special. Alas, we are adults, so let's make the best of it.
All I claim is encouragement and nothing is a put-down. You'll see. Some time in the future I'll be prattling (babbling) along and you'll connect with what I say or claim. You'll connect when you are ready, and not before. Trying to find wellness itself in what I share as only abstract ideas can only mess-up what progress you have if you are not "ready". You'll be ready when you'll be ready, not when I'm ready, when you're ready.
I wasn't ready till I was 38. I was 56 last Wednesday and nothing shows, except now I walk with an "emotional limp"(that still doesn't show if I listen and wait for others to speak first, and don't open my mouth at a bad time and make foolish self-sabotaging statements.Rod
Posted by Karen_kay on February 2, 2004, at 20:26:34
In reply to I'm not bragging about where I came from » lilmsbubbles07, posted by 64Bowtie on February 2, 2004, at 17:58:49
I know for a fact that I have the power inside of me to figure things out for myself without the help of Bubba. However, at this moment I'm so blinded by the misfortunes of my own past that I would not truly learn the lessons I would have to without reliving them over and over again, without the guidance of my Bubba. He's not really pointing things out to me that I don't already know. He's only gently holding my hand (metaphorically of course) while I learn these things on my own, so I don't go through life repeating the same cycles over and over again, and pass the same traits on to my children.
When the "blindfold" becomes a bit too much, sometimes he helps pull it away my eyes. And I truly appreciate that.
I'm not suggesting that you can't find the way without a therapist. But Bubba sure has come in handy the past year. I've been chasing my tail for quite a while, and now I'm not running in circles quite so much. Maybe I could have made this progress on my own, but without his help, I hardly think I would have faced what I needed to on my own and asked the hard questions of myself that he wasn't afraid to. I'm not quite "fixed" yet but I'm a much better person than I was before I met Bubba and I make it a point to thank him every night before I go to sleep, even if I don't thank him in person. So, how could I deny the power of therapy, I ask you?
Posted by 64Bowtie on February 2, 2004, at 21:11:24
In reply to Re: I'm not bragging about where I came from » 64Bowtie, posted by Karen_kay on February 2, 2004, at 20:26:34
((((Karen)))),
>>>I'm not quite "fixed" yet but I'm a much better person than I was before I met Bubba and I make it a point to thank him every night before I go to sleep, even if I don't thank him in person. So, how could I deny the power of therapy, I ask you?
<<<I'm not suggesting anyone bail on therapy and/or meds. I suggest all ignore anyone denying that wellness can ever be achieved. You'll make when you're ready. Isense it in your postings.
<<<We're all here hoping and helping. Together we can do miracles. I've seen miracles. I recognize the trend toward miracles.
Rod
Posted by All Done on February 2, 2004, at 21:34:52
In reply to Re: I'm not bragging about where I came from » 64Bowtie, posted by Karen_kay on February 2, 2004, at 20:26:34
> I know for a fact that I have the power inside of me to figure things out for myself without the help of Bubba. However, at this moment I'm so blinded by the misfortunes of my own past that I would not truly learn the lessons I would have to without reliving them over and over again, without the guidance of my Bubba. He's not really pointing things out to me that I don't already know. He's only gently holding my hand (metaphorically of course) while I learn these things on my own, so I don't go through life repeating the same cycles over and over again, and pass the same traits on to my children.
>
> When the "blindfold" becomes a bit too much, sometimes he helps pull it away my eyes. And I truly appreciate that.
>
> I'm not suggesting that you can't find the way without a therapist. But Bubba sure has come in handy the past year. I've been chasing my tail for quite a while, and now I'm not running in circles quite so much. Maybe I could have made this progress on my own, but without his help, I hardly think I would have faced what I needed to on my own and asked the hard questions of myself that he wasn't afraid to. I'm not quite "fixed" yet but I'm a much better person than I was before I met Bubba and I make it a point to thank him every night before I go to sleep, even if I don't thank him in person. So, how could I deny the power of therapy, I ask you?Karen,
Thanks for this post. I've read it a few times as it struck quite a few chords with me and I appreciate you're reminding me of what therapy is, can be, and might be for me. I'll keep my faith that it is working.
All Done
Posted by Karen_kay on February 2, 2004, at 21:53:27
In reply to Re: I'm not bragging about where I came from » Karen_kay, posted by 64Bowtie on February 2, 2004, at 21:11:24
(((rod)))
Guess I'll hug you too :)
I think that's the nicest post I've ever seen you write and I'm quite touched...
Thank you for that. I'm looking and hoping for miracles, Lord knows I need them. I've never been one to suggest that wellness can't be achieved. I know that it is out there!!!! I keep on a lookin!!!! I always try to keep my head up! And I try to help keep everyone else's up too! I know that happiness is out there for everyone... Let's ALL believe it, if for nothing else, believe it for ME, PLEASE..... I have to believe it.... That's all I have!!!
Posted by Dinah on February 2, 2004, at 22:21:46
In reply to Dinah-New beginnings, posted by 64Bowtie on February 2, 2004, at 14:17:48
>
> <<<now this is where I always get into trouble: I can't wait for someone to give me their permission to accept and understand what I have in my heart. I have tried and failed by waiting.
>
> <My bias is supported by the data that 80% of everybody are from dysfunctional families of origin rendering them only more or less dysfunctional by small degree. If sit around waiting till they accept and understand me, I would be known as a nice person, truly.
>
> <I am here (on earth) for a reason. I sense that I can see this big picture called life clearly. I can impart my vision on anyone interested. But first I must risk being disharomious enough to be seen as distinct, or my vision fades into the "wallpaper" of life. Trust me.
>
> <My catch 22 is that in order to make a difference which is my narrow definition of personal power, I must risk being different enough to be noticed. For those "personalities" you refer to, I can't wait for their approval of my presentation, or nothing will get done. My personal power will be a source of irritation to them, no matter anyway.
>
Call me a cockeyed optimist, but I think it's possible to be both harmonious and distinct. Like the French horn played in the orchestra.But now that I understand your priorities, I will respect them, even if I might not agree with some of your conclusions about the most effective ways to change hearts and minds.
I do see that you are trying, and I respect that. Peace and good luck in your quest.
Posted by 64Bowtie on February 3, 2004, at 11:24:24
In reply to Maybe we can be friends :) » 64Bowtie, posted by Karen_kay on February 2, 2004, at 21:53:27
(((Karen)))
You seem so much more than you say you are, makes me intuit that you ARE so much more than you THINK you are. You don't have to apologize to anybody, lady.
I may apologize for what I might do wrong, but I'll never apologize again for who I am. That I choose to leave in my dysfuntional childhood.
I want to keep hearing about the good stuff you do. There must be lots when I sense your goodness over the WEB.
(((Rod)))
PS: I don't usually do that in public... and no I'm not double jointed. Try it. Its a good addiction....lol
Posted by 64Bowtie on February 3, 2004, at 11:41:26
In reply to Re: Dinah-New beginnings, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2004, at 22:21:46
(((Dinah))),
Thanx for the nice words...
I had my "Merchandising" hat on when I said, "disharomious enough to be seen as distinct". I could have talked more directly and said that I must find a way to stand out. My product is very much service oriented and way too abstract to have length-width-depth like some thing from the pharmacy or the grocery store.
What you might disagree with has always intrigued me. I've worked hard to acquire these mis-understandings and knee-jerk guesses. If only you could have been there while I was studying this stuff and trying out things on our clients. (I say this in humor, because until I succeed, its partly true, as an irony of its abstract nature).
Rod
This is the end of the thread.
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