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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Asya on January 14, 2004, at 20:32:35
You guys are a really great bunch, and I can't believe I am already making my third post-- but I feel so safe and secure here. I will venture tentatively into making my first observation/commentary.
Many here (and indeed probably many in therapy generally) seem to be very focused on the fact that they don't tell their therapists everything, especially those things concerning the therepeutic relationship. I can understand, as, after 4 sessions with mine, I feel strange not having revealed certain things to her.
Still, I wonder whether sometimes we don't focus enough on the things we DO share, and the importance of having shared those things. Isn't it ok if we don't share everything? Does anyone on this board think there exists one person that knows everything about them? There are people in my life who know a lot about me, and my T is becoming one of them, but as someone so eloquently said on another post, for one to know everything about you he would have to be your shadow--which is humanly impossible.
The truth is, we have to accept that every clinical model (doctors, teachers, lawyers, and especially therapists) is just that, a model on the idealitsic relationship between the client and service-giver. Models by nature usually cannot be attained exactly. Human behavior, thought, and emotion is so infintely complex that no one will ever be able to tell us precisely why we are the way we are for everything all the time. And that's ok. We're not really looking for that. What we are looking for in therapy is how to better grapple with emotional problems that, in our perception, impede our functioning.
I have been reflecting a lot on whether to tell my T that I found out where she lives, who her kids are, her age, where she went to high school, etc., and I realize that the conversation might illuminate something to me that I already know: I am really grateful for the relationship with her, and I wish she could be a more significant part of my life. I also know the answer, she can't, but will probably not be weirded out. So, for now, I won't say any of these things, but I am working at not feeling squelched or weird about ir. Instead, I am truly trying to appreciate what she is being paid to do -- sometimes if you look at the relationship in the coldest, most clinical way possible, you might get the warmest, most rewarding results.
Posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 20:45:07
In reply to Some ruminations about what to tell our Ts, posted by Asya on January 14, 2004, at 20:32:35
I think you're right. I do concentrate on what I do share. I've been with the same therapist for nine years. Sometimes twice a week, sometimes once a week, sometimes once every other week. And I've tried to be open with him. So I feel like he knows me better than any human being on the planet. Probably because I pay him to know me better than any human being on this planet. No matter how revolting or icky it is, or how shamed I am of it, it's his job to hear it and help me process it. Of course, not all therapists are as darn good at it as he is.
That's why I get so distraught when he's angry with me or doesn't like me for a while. Because he does know me better than anyone, so my acceptability depends on him thinking I'm acceptable.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 21:13:56
In reply to Some ruminations about what to tell our Ts, posted by Asya on January 14, 2004, at 20:32:35
I discussed a bit of that with my therapist today. I told him, "What if I've been arrested (which I haven't)? What good would it do to tell you? How do I decide exactly what to tell you and what not to tell you?" He said to tell him everything and let him be the judge. We both laughed at that. He said that it is important to tell him the things that are causing distress in my life and that I want to change. But, it seems there are so many :( And there isn't nearly enough time...
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 15, 2004, at 8:43:47
In reply to Re: Some ruminations about what to tell our Ts, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 21:13:56
My biggest fear is boring my therapist to death, so I leave out a lot of stuff about my life. I feel like I have to keep him entertained so he won't terminate me. I'm pathetic.
Posted by Penny on January 15, 2004, at 9:03:18
In reply to Some ruminations about what to tell our Ts, posted by Asya on January 14, 2004, at 20:32:35
Asya,
I've been debating on whether or not to share my input on your sharing your knowledge of where your T lives, etc. I guess perhaps because my opinion here is a bit different from those in your thread above, but here goes:
I think you are doing the right thing by not confessing to your T at this time. I say this because of personal experience. My current T is quite computer savvy, and she knows what I probably can and can't find on the internet. She also knows that I research everything, so even though I've never officially told her that I know where she lives, she probably figures that I know where she lives.
But my former T wasn't that computer savvy, and I don't think she realized how much info about her is available online. What happened? After I had been seeing her about 2 years, she became pregnant with her second child, which triggered some major abandonment issues with me. I became so attached (I was already attached, but became moreso) and dependent on her - probably a bit to the extreme. She was good about it. She kept her private life pretty private, but I knew she had a daughter and now, obviously, was having a second child, which she couldn't hide from me. I knew she was married, but didn't know anything about her marriage or much else about her life.
So, one day I was surfing the net, and I was trying to find out how much property tax I owed that year, so I got on my city's web site, and, lo and behold, they give you the ability to look up the value of ANY HOME in that area, by the address or the homeowner's name.
My T had an unusual last name. Even though she never told me her hubby's name, they were one of the only families in that area with that last name. Out of curiousity, I looked it up and, of course, there was her hubby's name and her name, and their address, and the value of their house, all open to the public. Her's wasn't the only home I looked up that day - I looked up my boss's house (I already knew the address, but was being nosy!), my doctor's house, etc.
Anyway, after that I knew her hubby's name, so I, of course, being the type of person I am, looked him up online. Well, he's a VP for a fairly large company (that I had never heard of though) in that city, and his picture was on their web site. So now I had her address and knew what her hubby looked like.
I shopped fairly frequently at a store near her home, which I hadn't known before, so now, even though we lived in a fair-sized city, I was paranoid about running into her around town - what would I say? How would I act? Would she even acknowledge me? (In three years time I never once ran into her anywhere outside of her office. Didn't even know what kind of car she drove as she parked behind her building!)
One afternoon I was in her area, running errands, and I decided to drive by her house, to see what it looked like. It was a colonial style brick, large, in a housing development. I don't know what I was expecting, but, unfortunately seeing the house cinched for me the fact that my T didn't live a very exciting life, as I would have liked to imagine she did. Oh well...
Anyway, as her pregnancy progressed, and I became more depressed and more despairing because I felt so attached to her, and jealous of her pregnancy, AND jealous of the baby inside of her! I decided I needed to confess that I had found this info. So I did. I left off that I had driven by her house, after her reaction to my knowing where she lived.
She wasn't overly angry, but she wasn't happy with me either. In fact, she tried to use the whole experience as a learning opportunity, saying to me that it was good that I could see that someone could be upset with me but not abandon me. I guess, in retrospect, she did show me that, but at the time I was in so much pain because I felt like I had forever changed her view of me. I felt like now she saw me as someone who had violated her privacy - because I knew that I had found information she would never have shared voluntarily with me.
Eventually I got through it, mostly, but even now, when I think about telling her, what resonates with me is that she said it was okay that I knew because she had known me for two years, and if I had been a new client, she might have been a little more freaked out. I guess I see her point. She knew at that point that I wasn't going to stalk her (and I never drove by her house again, and never told her that I did it the first time!).
My current T knows all of this, and that it still causes me pain. I don't think my current T would care if I knew where she lived. I've been seeing her a year, and she's no where near as guarded as my former T. Of course, she's also single with no small children at home to protect, so that probably is partly the reason she's more open. Plus, we live in a pretty small area where there's a good chance that at some point I will end up running into her - at the bookstore, at Walmart, at the library, or somewhere. And I don't worry about it, because I know she would be cool about it.
My point? I think you should know your T a little better and make sure she knows you a little better before telling her all that you know about her. Or bring it up in a generic way first - to get a feel for what she thinks of all the personal info that's available on the net and her clients having access to that info. I guess in retrospect I would have told my T the whole thing anyway, but, then again, in retrospect, I don't know if I would've looked up the info in the first place, because it was such a painful experience for me. I felt like I had disappointed her, and, since I saw her as a mother-figure, that was the worst thing in the world as far as I was concerned.
Just wanted to share my experience.
P
Posted by Asya on January 15, 2004, at 9:50:42
In reply to Re: Your T's personal info (long) » Asya, posted by Penny on January 15, 2004, at 9:03:18
Penny,
I can't thank you enough for sharing your story -- it sounds a lot like what I've done. I am glad there's someone who's not instantly advocating for telling the T all this.The thing is, I do this sort of rummage for personal information for a lot of people and I am debating whether to tell her about THAT. I am not sure how net savvy she is, but I would imagine she probably knows whats available about her on the net and so might just deduce that I have searched for her. I don't want to plant those seeds in her mind, because honestly, that's not the point. I feel like it would come in the way, for both of us. I would feel embarassed and think that she is annoyed with me, she would be freaked out. I've come to sort of s standstill about it too, and I have stopped looking for more info. So, for now, I've decided to discuss the things I came for.
Penny, thanks again for sharing your story wirh this confused girl.
Asya N.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 15, 2004, at 10:25:29
In reply to Some ruminations about what to tell our Ts, posted by Asya on January 14, 2004, at 20:32:35
I have done something fairly despicable in my opinion while "researching" my therapist. I feel pretty awful about it actually.
I really want to know if he is married and has any daughters (you see, I want to be his only one!). I know he has 2 sons just through casual conversation. He told me several months ago that his mother had died the week before. I looked up her last name on a database here at the University where I work and found out she was an alumna. So I found her first name. I then did an internet search on her obituary, just so I could find out who was listed as next of kin. My T was listed, but no wife, and 6 grandchildren were listed (all boys).
I feel so dirty for doing this. But I just HAD to know. And of course I will NEVER tell him I did this (unless of course he reads Babble, God I hope not).
Posted by EmmyS on January 15, 2004, at 10:51:20
In reply to Re: Some ruminations about what to tell our Ts, posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 15, 2004, at 10:25:29
OK...I'll try to be less blunt this time. Forgive me, I was raised by wolves.
I too did the old Google thing on my T. Having been raised by Catholic, guilt lobbing wolves, I felt obliged to make a full confession. He was great and we just bonded over the whole event.
Maybe consider this......
If you find out that she runs in marathons, or his kids are in little league, or she enters her cats in competitions...no problem. But if you find out things which you begin to obsess about...things which begin to cycle in your head along with those transference-y feelings...I really would suggest attempting to bring them out in the open if possible. Clearing the air can mean a really big step forward in your therapy.
Was that gentle enough???Emmy (trying not to gain rep as Cruella DeVille)
Posted by Penny on January 15, 2004, at 10:51:23
In reply to Re: Your T's personal info , response to Penny, posted by Asya on January 15, 2004, at 9:50:42
I search for things on various people and subjects all the time. I should be a research librarian, really - I think the job would suit me well as I love to research things!
It probably wouldn't hurt to bring *that* point up in your therapy - that you have a 'need to know' things. Because, IMO, that does play into other aspects of your life. Like when my T recommended DBT to me, I immediately went and checked the DBT books out of the library. And she expected that's what I would do. In fact, she encourages me often to research things I am curious about, b/c she knows it's in my nature. Of course, I suspect too that my current T is a lot like me in this way. She loves learning, and I love that about her.
Glad my story could help. It was a hard-learned lesson...
P
Posted by Poet on January 15, 2004, at 11:51:22
In reply to Some ruminations about what to tell our Ts, posted by Asya on January 14, 2004, at 20:32:35
Hi Asya,
You have such incredible insight for someone new to therapy. I've been seeing my therapist for over a year, which I know isn't long (it just seems to be.)
It's okay with me that I don't share everything, there is no one who knows everything about me and I doubt there ever will be.
I can't offer any advice on telling a therapist what you know about their personal life. Everything I know is what she's told me, I did do an internet search, but I didn't get any results, which I think is good.
I know she lives close to her office, as do I, but I don't know her address. I could handle running into her at a grocery store, but since I'm bulimic I'd hate to look up from a big plate of food at a restaurant and see her. We must not frequent the same places, I shouldn't have said that, now I will run into her!
Poet
Posted by Asya on January 15, 2004, at 12:37:32
In reply to Re: Some ruminations about what to tell our Ts » Asya, posted by Poet on January 15, 2004, at 11:51:22
Thanks poet and Emmy, both of you made some sense, and Emmy, you did not sound like Cruella. I NEED to make some confessions, and I wish I could but I am too afraid that my T reads this. Could I just confess to someone privately? (I feel so needy and pathetic). Anyway, like Poet, I don't think anyone would ever know everything about me. Then again, we wonder, what does it mean to actually KNOW everything about someone? To know every thought that has ever crossed their mind? This brings me back to my earlier point about such an exercise being impossible. I would love to start a new thread (for the sake of catharsis) where we each share a few things we think NO ONE knows about us...hmmm. Thanks everyone, you guys are really smart and wonderful...
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 20:39:58
In reply to Re: Your T's personal info , response to Penny, posted by Asya on January 15, 2004, at 9:50:42
Oh Asya,
I've Googled my therapist and I now know his home address, which is listed in the telephone book by his wife's name (her maiden name, no less). I know what he wrote his dissertation on, where he went to school, a wedding he was in, what his wife looks like, the name of his dogs. But, I'm NEVER EVER EVER going to tell him that..... NEVER!!!!!!! AND NOONE will convince me otherwise. I was so close to telling him that I did a search on him last week, but I would never tell him what I found. Maybe on my last session. He told me he'd show me a picture of his family on the last day, and I'll tell him that I searched for him on the internet my last day. Then, we'll be even!
Posted by ladylight57 on January 16, 2004, at 12:23:26
In reply to Re: Some ruminations about what to tell our Ts, posted by Asya on January 15, 2004, at 12:37:32
Interesting thread. Emmy, I think you've got a good point there. Idle curiosity is probably not anything that needs to be brought up, but if you are beginning to obsess about what you've found, that is a different story.
I've not done a Google search on my T. Though I am generally curious about her, I like finding out about her in bits and pieces. Unlike my last therapist, we do not have a warm fuzzy relationship. LOL In fact it took the first 6 months of my sessions to decide if I thought I could really stay with her.
I know she's married, has a teenage daughter, sings in a choir, loves her job, goes to church. She's got a good sense of humor and doesn't take any bullshit. She's smart and highly motivated. The jury is still out as to whether she even likes me.....LOL. It's been about 9 months and I am just getting to the point where I trust her.
Am I weird for not wanting to know more?
LL
Posted by Asya on January 16, 2004, at 17:20:35
In reply to Re: Some ruminations about what to tell our Ts, posted by ladylight57 on January 16, 2004, at 12:23:26
Karen & Ladylight and everyone:
You know, I think what we all need to accept is sometimes we'll be curious, sometimes we'll be REALLY curious, and sometimes we won't be curious at all. What's important is not whether we know where our T lives and what her kids' names are, but how that information is affecting us and whether it is significantly affecting the working relationship we have with our Ts.Karen, you made me feel better because there's no way I could tell my T I am so obsessed with finding stuff out about her. I think it will negatively impact what has become a very professional relationship. Thanks so much for all your support, I feel so much better knowing others have also made the decision not to say anything.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 16, 2004, at 17:55:46
In reply to Re: Some ruminations about what to tell our Ts, posted by Asya on January 16, 2004, at 17:20:35
Oh no! I'm thinking about telling him! But, the situation is different with mine. I feel SOOO guilty for looking at the picture of his wife. And he tells me things about her now and I don't really think she's a good wife. In your situation, I wouldn't tell. But, with my situation I think I should tell him because I'm at a point now where I trust him enough to actually come clean. And that's a big step for me. Also, I need to let him know that I'm not fond of his choice in mate, just so he knows that I know too much about his personal life. And this would be a good way for me to kill 2 birds with one stone. I may chicken out and not tell him. And I'm sure he'll be disappointed in me, though it was an accident. But, I trust him enough to say, "Look I think your wife isn't taking good care of you. I'll swing by and do your laundry so you can get some sleep." That is my way of saying "Don't tell me so much about your personal life, PLEASE!!!!"
So, in your case, it isn't at all necessary to tell your therapist that you been doing a few searches. A lot of people do them! I'm only telling mine because I feel very guilty and I want to show him that I do finally trust him.
This is the end of the thread.
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