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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ramsea on December 3, 2003, at 5:03:10
Maybe someone can help me? First off let me say that I have a thorough background of understanding when it comes to my illness, bipolar disorder, and borderline personality disorder too (I have worked with borderlines and been a friend and relative of borderlines). I have seen the charts that show how alike the two disorders are, and how the main difference has to do with the borderliners "fear of abandonment" and "lack of a sense of self". Perhaps also the borderliner has briefer periods of mood disorder.
I'm just saying all that because I am not after the usual borderline sites on the net and other book listings--I have gone to the major borderline sites and read throrougtly and bought tons of books on the subject and read them. All of this because I just don't get it. I really don't get it.I am bipolar 1, first diagnosed some 27 years ago.I can have psychotic features and tend to have Mixed Episodes, which is when you meet the criteria for mania AND depression at the same time.
I have had friends and people I worked with who were labelled borderline, and I know firsthand that they can get treated with great disrespect. It's frightening. I have always felt a little guilty, or even a lot, because I have been treated more humanely then the borderline-labelled ((thus far knock on wood)). So I ask myself, time and again, why wasn't she (it was always a female) just diagnosed bipolar?
Maybe they are more on the depressed side and don't get manic like I do, but they have deep mood problems, up and down, suicidal thoughts (and sadly, very sadly, some succeeded--in fact the ONLY successful suicides I've personally known, and that happens to be a few, were labelled borderline---so what was all that rubbish about them "just" attention seeking?????)
There is the same tendency to self-medicate, otherwise known as substance abuse; and because it stands to reason (IMHO) that if your moods are shifting all the time, you will have a fleeting sense of self because anyone would be unsure of who they are if the tables are constantly being turned on you.
How confident can you be when you can't trust your moods, when one month you are an extrovert and delighted and very excited, capable/creative, and then the next month slow, lethargic, apathetic, and having to cancel all the engagements and stop the projects you made the previous month? i.e., is it REALLY just borderliners who don't have a secure sense of self? Isn't that true of bipolars too?
In a book on Virginia Woolf, who was bipolar, the author quited several of her diary writings which described how difficult it is to maintain a sense of self in the midst of great mood fluctuations. And other books on bipolar describe this same thing. So clearly some famous writers on manic depression admit to this. How then can it be a special attribute of borderline PD?
Borderlines are offered much the same medicine. Dialectical Behav Therapy which was specifically created for borderlines is now being touted as great for bipolars too. So we seem to benefit from the same type of therapy too.
Sometimes it is said that childhood trauma/abuse is linked to borderline, but then it is also linked to bipolar. One study found that as many as 2/3 of bipolars have a significant trauma/traumas in their childhood background. Virginia Woolf for example was sexually abused as a little girl by her half-brothers. I was a victim of neglect and abuse. Other bipolars I know or know of were as well. So borderliners aren't alone with childhood trauma/abuse either.
Now I never cut or anything like that, but I did OD a few times. Does that make me borderline, or is that part of my bipolar illness, depressive side?????? It is extremely common for bipolars to overdose at some point or engage in risky/self-destructive behaviors. So the borderliners can't claim that one either.
I can't get my head round this, no matter how hard I try. I know very well that it is never just one symptom or even a few that make up a disorder, and that various disorders can share some of the same features--it's the total picture that counts. But that's just it!!!! Symptom for symptom, bipolar and borderline sound the exact, absolute exact same to me.
What I would dearly love is for someone to explain to me why their doctor believes they are borderline and NOT bipolar. Has anyone ever been told specifically this??? I care because I like to understand things, probably because I obsess about this a bit due to my relationships and background. Why don't I ask my pdoc? I did, he laughed and said I was bipolar. He didn't want to discuss this.
It can be controversial too, for some reason. I just would be really grateful if someone could explain to me why they are deemed to be borderline and not bipolar, or the reverse, deemed to be bipolar and nor borderline. Thanks to anyone who might be interested.
Posted by justyourlaugh on December 3, 2003, at 6:20:13
In reply to Re: borderline pd and bipolar, posted by ramsea on December 3, 2003, at 5:03:10
what a gift it would be to jump into another's mind for a day to see what differences or similarities we could find...
i am starting to think that this "constant comentary" i have in my mind is something to worry about..
dont we all have it?
dont we all have mood swings and inflick pain on ourselves to make sure we are not dreaming?
i am as confused as you are..
but i do feel bpd lables do come with a side order of disrespect with a tall glass of blame
j
Posted by fallsfall on December 3, 2003, at 8:24:58
In reply to Re: borderline pd and bipolar, posted by ramsea on December 3, 2003, at 5:03:10
Like you, I've done a lot of reading. I am diagnosed Borderline and Major Depression (though my dad and sister are diagnosed BiPolar - so maybe my turn will come). I have friends who are BiPolar, who are Borderline, and who are both.
I think that my sense of the difference is mainly one of cause. BiPolar is very genetic. Borderline (in my opinion) is more environmental. I get that mostly from Linehan's book where she talks about invalidating environments. Also other authors (I don't remember who right now) talk a lot about Borderlines and Splitting (Black and white thinking). Splitting is caused by environmental factors very early on. I personally think that splitting is the essence of Borderline. The behaviors that result from splitting can be different for different people. For many it is the impulsive self destructiveness that we associate with Borderline people. But I'm not impulsive (and only minorly self destructive) - yet I "feel" borderline - because of the splitting and the lack of self. I call myself a non-typical Borderline, because I have the underlying Self issues, but I display them differently (my therapist calls it "intensely dependent").
I have been doing some reading on Psychology of the Self (the best is "The Restoration of the Self" by Kohut). This psychology talks about the way that we create our Self when we are growing up (or later in therapy) - by finding someone to "mirror" (finding out what it means to be human, what are emotions, etc. Think of the infant who sticks his tongue out at you when you stick yours out.) and by finding someone to idealize (to decide what we can be when we grow up, sort of putting all that mirror information together). In another book ("How Does Analysis Cure") he also talks about twinship/alterego, but I'm not really clear on how that is different from the mirroring (an example is the little girl kneading a hunk of dough next to her mom). So Kohut is talking about how we learn to be ourselves - how we create our Self. He says that if our models (usually parents) failed us when we were growing, that we will be missing "structures" in our Self. The lack of these structures is the root of our psychopathology. The behaviors that we do as a result are the symptom, but not the cause of the problem. Self Psychologists give us another chance to mirror and idealize and twin, and by doing this, they let us pick up where we stopped while growing up and try to grow up again. There is also the concept of "optimal frustration" where they (or our parents) would make mistakes and we learn to be strong and adapt as a result. Note the word "Optimal" - not too many frustrations, not too few.
This is very different from Freud's philosophy which says that our behavior is based on "drives", and our psychopathologies are a result of the conflicts of the drives.
Somehow, the Self stuff just makes more sense to me. Anyway, the Self Psychology supports (in my mind) the idea that splitting (which is a defect of the Self) causes loads of problems. I have done a session of DBT, and my therapist (although not a DBT therapist) worked with me and supported the DBT philosophy. I found it quite helpful. I learned a bunch of coping skills, and some education about what really is appropriate behavior (rather than just how it was done in my disfunctional family), and a sense of the types of issues that cause me problems and how to think about them. I'm really glad I did the DBT stuff, and I'm glad I did it first. But, DBT (and CBT) taught me only how to survive with the problem that I have (a defect of the Self) - and while that is a big improvement, that isn't enough for me. I don't want to have to "cope" with everything forever - I want to "fix" it. That is where my Psychodynamic therapist (who practices Psychology of the Self) comes in. I am hoping (and praying) that working with him will allow me to build the structures that are missing, and that someday I won't need to cope so much. So far, the therapy is VERY different from the CBT I had (for 8 1/2 years). I can't tell yet if it will really "fix" the problems - create the structure that is missing in my Self - but I've been seeing him for less than 6 months, so I think it is too early to tell.
That's my philosophy of Borderline. For BiPolar, I think that there is a chemical issue, which causes mood instability (which can be a SYMPTOM with Borderlines, but in my opinion is not a CAUSE). This chemical issue makes life very unpredictable for the person (in many of the same ways that a Borderline's environment makes their life unpredictable), and so the person has trouble learning how to grow up right. I suppose that if the instability is sufficient when the child is very young, that it (rather than the environment) could cause defects in the Self. I guess I think that you can have BiPolar people who have intact selfs, but the fact that their "world" (as seen through the filter of their mood instability) is so chaotic, they have trouble seeing things the same way that "normal" (whatever that is!) people do.
I guess that I would sum up by saying that I think that the causes of Borderline and BiPolar are different, but that they can have the same effect on the learning (and development of the Self) and on the behavior of the adult, and that is what makes them look similar. I do believe that there are Borderline people who are not BiPolar, and BiPolar people who are not Borderline.
Thank you so much for bringing up this topic. It is helpful to me to put down what I am learning - kind of lets me consolidate things. I am interested to hear what you think of my "theories".
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2003, at 9:32:34
In reply to Re: borderline pd and bipolar, posted by ramsea on December 3, 2003, at 5:03:10
I have a whole complicated theory, and I'm not sure I'll describe it properly, but I'll try.
I think both conditions are mood disorders, although borderlines would have to be ultra-rapid cycling on the bipolar spectrum. And also that they have a number of other conditions that are biologically based, such as rejection sensitivity, that now do not get the recognition they should get as biological conditions. People seem to think rejection sensitivity is a character flaw, when I propose it is a biological tendency. Wasn't one of the main points of Kramer's "Listening to Prozac" that Prozac provided a sort of safety net so that people didn't react so strongly to rejection? And a number of other borderline traits, as a number of other schizoid traits, are probably determined by biology.
Since I find the DSM IV sadly lacking, I prefer Linehan's "arousal in response to emotional stimuli" and "slow return to baseline". Now how those things came to be, I'm not sure. Interplay of genes and environment most likely? But at this point I think they're hardwired. And the results of the physostigmine (sp?) challenge to people with borderline personality theory is interesting.
Then, my theory goes, the "personality disorders" are merely a person's characteristic way of dealing with the biological vulnerabilities. So a person with borderline personality disorder might have the same biology as someone with avoidant personality disorder, but has learned a separate set of tools to cope with their overwhelming feelings.
The personality disorders may be useful as a clinical shorthand to describe a large group of behaviors that often come together. But too often they aren't thought of that way. Too often clinicians forget that they *are* ways of coping with underlying problems, rather than being the problem themself. (Although granted, they can make the problem worse).
My biofeedback psychologist asked me in exasperation how I conceived my problems. I told him my main problem came from easy emotional arousal and slow return to baseline, as described by Linehan in discussing borderlines. Now there was some evidence to that fact right in front of him. He had just remarked on the jump in my skin conductivity merely because the not terribly threatening assistant had entered the room. And it stayed up for some time. Yet he told me not to give myself such unflattering labels!! Unflattering? And this from a professional?
I've never been diagnosed borderline because I don't fit the actions. My relationships are almost pathologically stable. I am the very opposite of impulsive. I show very little anger. And I try very hard not to let others know of my self injury. So the less sensitive practitioners have a hard time understanding that I *feel* borderline. The underlying biological predispositions are the same. I've officially been diagnosed with cyclothymia. And my fear of abandonment is assuaged by forming very few, but lasting and stable, relationships. And I try to regulate my emotions by avoiding situations (as well as by food and self injury and spending). I too have the lack of a good sense of self, because memory is mood state dependent.
So, in long, my theory is that borderline personality disorder is a combination of a mood disorder and some other unrecognized as of yet biological disorders, some temperament variables that influence how the mood disorder is expressed, and characteristic behaviors that have been learned as a means of reducing the pain.
Posted by judy1 on December 3, 2003, at 9:48:47
In reply to Re: borderline pd and bipolar, posted by ramsea on December 3, 2003, at 5:03:10
I carry both labels- bipolar 1 and borderline disorders. I agree with fallsfall that bipolar is more a genetic disorder and borderline an environmental one. I'll go a step further and say that bp 1 is similar to epilepsy, not only do studies on PET scans show similarities, but the fact that both conditions respond tp AEDs is important too. As a person who has bp 1, I'm sure you see the distinct mood episodes that last a period of time versus the mood fluctuatons of borderline disorder that come in response to various emotional triggers. I've noticed my borderline behaviors have 'matured out' as I get older in contrast to my bipolar episodes which tend to get worse. I'v also seen borderline behaviors that respond to therapy while bipolar is truly biological and responds mostly to medications.
just my thoughts- judy
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2003, at 10:50:10
In reply to Re: borderline pd and bipolar » ramsea, posted by judy1 on December 3, 2003, at 9:48:47
And somewhat discouraging to me...
Linehan's DBT has proved very effective with the "behaviors" but studies have shown that it doesn't affect the underlying "feelings" much. I'm not sure it's even worth bothering with, to tell you the truth. At least in my more discouraged moments. If I still feel crummy afterwards, but am less trouble to others, did it really work?
I think that someday they'll come up with a more effective medication regime. At least I hope so. And I can't help thinking the physostigmine challenge is a good place to start the research. It showed a clearly different biological reaction compared to other "personality disorders".
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2003, at 11:00:18
In reply to Re: borderline pd and bipolar » ramsea, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2003, at 9:32:34
Posted by fallsfall on December 3, 2003, at 12:25:19
In reply to Re: One interesting finding, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2003, at 10:50:10
Dinah,
Can you give us a more pertinent definition of physostigmine than Merriam-Webster does: a crystalline tasteless alkaloid C15H21N3O2 from the Calabar bean that is used in medicine especially in the form of its salicylate for its anticholinesterase activity? I'm sure you have more in mind! LOL.
My experience validates the statement : Linehan's DBT has proved very effective with the "behaviors" but studies have shown that it doesn't affect the underlying "feelings" much.
I certainly needed the coping/understanding skills I got from DBT in order to survive and be able to do the harder "Self" work. I would be in trouble if I was trying to do this now without my DBT background. So yes, it really was helpful for me. But it was not enough.
Posted by fallsfall on December 3, 2003, at 12:30:38
In reply to Re: borderline pd and bipolar, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2003, at 11:00:18
Posted by DaisyM on December 3, 2003, at 13:17:03
In reply to Re: One interesting finding, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2003, at 10:50:10
But don't you think that if the underlying behaviors "get better" than the social responses get better and that leads to some redirection of emotional expectation? Especially in relationships?
So maybe the right course of action is DBT in addition to psychotherapy (self) work. I've also just read an interested report about hypnotherapy in conjunction with DBT - not just for behavior change but to alliviate psychological pain as underlying issues are explored. *supposedly* this allows better function in-between sessions. I need more evidence but it was interesting enough to pursue at the university library. I've started a search.
Dinah, your comment about "almost pathologically stable relationships" made me really think - I've never heard/read that anywhere else. This is very different than abusive cycle relationships, which is typically where the information about "why they stay" is. Interesting...good discussion.
Posted by ramsea on December 3, 2003, at 13:43:18
In reply to Re: borderline pd and bipolar, posted by justyourlaugh on December 3, 2003, at 6:20:13
I love how you put that--"side order of disrespect and tall glass of shame." Unfortunately true.
At least we are talking, trying to understand. That in itself is positive.
Let's leave the cafe without paying, hehe.
Posted by ramsea on December 3, 2003, at 14:54:30
In reply to Re: borderline pd and bipolar » ramsea, posted by fallsfall on December 3, 2003, at 8:24:58
This is fascinating stuff. It sounds like you are fit and willing to make your life work. I will re-read what you wrote again, as several questions of interest to me arose. Out of curiosity, I wanted to know when you first realized you were having "problems". For example, I was a mood disordered toddler. I showed definite symptoms that are seen in Aspergers and ADD, as well as childhood bipolar.
If you haven't read Flight of the Mind, a book which offers a biological and psychoanalytical look at the "manic depression" of Virginia Woolf, I really do think you'd like it. I just read it a few weeks ago, and recall a whole chapter on Self psychology, including analysis of her childhood and the subject of mirroring. Her father was cyclothymic and her mother, who died early, was pathologically bereaved. V. Woolf was therefore a candidate for splitting/self-fragmentation.
I wanted to ask you if you believe that (in humble opinion and all that <smile>) a bipolar who had a traumatic childhood, where there was poor mirroring, is then borderline? I hope that made sense. Try again: as a bipolar who had a disturbed childhood, am I necessarily borderline? I appreciate what you said about not bipolars are borderline and vice versa. But what if a person has experienced a terrible environment, in addition to having the genetics quite apparently in place?
It's kind of hard for me to think of any famous bipolars , or authors, who say they had a happy childhood. I am sure they exist, of course, I just can't think of them. BW thinking is pretty common in lots of dysfunctional mental conditions, i.e., schizophrenia, alcoholism, Asperger's, ADD, etc.
Actually I just read Driven to Distraction, which is about ADD/ADHD and there is a chapter on Borderlines. The author (pdoc) discusses the similarities between ADD and borderline--very interesting. I seriously believe I am ADD, but again my pdoc dismisses this, as he dismissed out of hand the possibility that I might be borderline.One more question and I'll stop badgering you! Why does Marsha Linehan say that a client who misses a session because she was hospitalized for a psychiatric problem is said to have an "unexcused absence"? If it had been a "physical" problem, she would have had an "excused absence". Isn't that kind of backwards???? Take care & many thanks for your help.
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2003, at 16:14:42
In reply to Re: One interesting finding, posted by fallsfall on December 3, 2003, at 12:25:19
Do you think the feelings will ever settle down? At least until they come up with decent medication to treat the underlying problems?
I am currently very pessimistic. My best hope at the moment is just dealing with it, and that's not very hopeful at all. I don't want to have to go through life like this. I want to tame my amygdala. :(
Posted by fallsfall on December 4, 2003, at 8:16:20
In reply to Re: psychological theoriesmof Self » fallsfall, posted by ramsea on December 3, 2003, at 14:54:30
Ramsea,
I am 46 years old (female). I have always been an "achiever". When I was 38 I had it all - 3 kids and a house husband (and a house), and a career managing Software Engineers (42 of them) for a fast paced company. But all that responsibility (since my husband let me make all the decisions for the family, too) was too much. I started depending heavily (read that: in love, almost stalking) on my best friend. Eventually I was too much for her to take and she told me to get some help (in a very compassionate way). My GP diagnosed depression (it was SO hard for me to be brave enough to hear that) and sent me to a CBT therapist (a very good one). She said "No, problem, we'll have you out of here in 6 - 8 sessions". That was almost 9 years ago. She pried me away from my friend and I latched on to her. I started wanting to hurt myself and went into the hospital. That's when she diagnosed me as Borderline. I did go back to work for 2 years in the middle of the 9 years, but I wouldn't say that I stopped being depressed.
Until I was 38 I thought I had no limits - I could do anything. I think that I have been depressed a bit for my whole life (and I did see a psychiatrist in 5th grade for 1 1/2 years for constipation [usually control issues]) but I never knew that anything was wrong (remember, I could do anything). My pediatrician (who was T. Berry Brazelton!) remembers my mother as being depressed, and me as being a "sad child". So that's my history.
My library has "The Flight of the Mind" (and it is available...) I'll check it out.
My (humble) opinion is that some people are more sensitive to their environments, and that if these "sensitive" people have bad environments that they will become Borderline. Thinking about it, perhaps a BiPolar child would tend to act on his environment in a way that might increase the environment's tendency to go in a bad direction. In other words, a BiPolar child would tend to be stressful to his parents, which might exacerbate their tendency to provide a "bad" environment for the child.
I also think that there are kids who are constitutionally strong enough that it doesn't matter how bad the environment is, they are going to be OK. And there are kids who are super sensitive and will become borderline in fairly reasonable environments.
I had a group therapist (Psychodynamic) who asked my diagnosis. I told her Major Depression and Borderline. She said "Oh, I don't care about the Borderline" - sort of like she either didn't believe in it, or at least it wasn't relevant for her. Maybe she just wanted to put the right thing down in the "diagnosis" box on the insurance form. You might ask your pdoc if he specifically thinks that YOU are not borderline or ADHD, or if he just doesn't think that those are useful categorizations in general.
You are not badgering me! We are talking about my favorite subject - and it is obvious that you have done some research, which makes for an interesting discussion.
Unexcused absences for being in the hospital. I think that Linehan's theory here is that when a Borderline patient goes into the hospital, that it is a way of coping with ... something. She wants them to learn coping skills that will allow them to remain in their "outside lives". Borderlines CAN learn coping skills and learn to live in ways that are less traumatic and that generate fewer crises. She is making a statement that getting to the state where hospitalization is the best choice is not a good thing - so she wants to make sure that it is not rewarded (and is punished a little). Her other point, though, (which I think makes even more sense) is that if a patient is in the hospital, then they are NOT in Skills Training. Skills Training therapy cannot occur if the patient doesn't show up. When they are in the hospital, they can't show up. So being in the hospital is a "therapy-interfering behavior". There are Borderline patients who are not READY for Skills Training, and this is one of the signs of that. By making it an unexcused absence, patients who are in the hospital all the time (these are the people who aren't ready for Skills training) use up their absences and have to drop out. This is actually a good thing for both the patient and the group. It gives the patient (and his therapist...) a wake up call. Skills training is really like a class, if members of the class miss too much of the material they disrupt the progress of the class as a whole.
Thanks for the great thread.
Posted by fallsfall on December 4, 2003, at 8:20:57
In reply to Re: One interesting finding » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2003, at 16:14:42
I think that we can get "used to" the feelings and learn to interpret them less tragically. Sort of like, everything is relative - we just have to learn that our base feelings are extreme (extreme is NORMAL for us). Then we have to learn to exist in the world even though our feelings are extreme.
No, I don't think that DBT/CBT will make the feelings go away. But it can make it so that coping with the feelings is just part of life.
Personally, I don't think that meds will "fix" this. Meds can help moderate how extreme the feelings are (and therefore make them easier to deal with). I'm sure hoping that therapy can "fix" it.
Posted by ramsea on December 4, 2003, at 10:42:16
In reply to Re: psychological theories of Self » ramsea, posted by fallsfall on December 4, 2003, at 8:16:20
My subject title reveals my oral fixation, but really you all have given me much to reflect on.
My pdoc believes in Borderline PD and ADHD, but he insists that I don't qualify, that my Bipolar dx is enough to cover matters such as high emotional reactivity, severe social anxiety, panic attacks, inability to focus, disorganization, underachieving, etc. I believe that both Dinah and fallfall presented (and extremely eloquently, too) BPD theories that were opposed in one primary way---ye olde environment vs. biology.
Off-hand I feel the gender aspect needs looking at, and I would like to see whether any researcher has touched on this at depth. The forensic psychiatry hospitals are filled to the brim with patients who have personality disorders. Most forensic BPDs are female. Presumably the male wards are filled with antisocial personality disordered patients. Could it be that when forensic matters come up women are being labelled borderline when they are actually the female version of anti-social?
For example females are considered by some neuroscientists, et al, to be more emotion/relationship oriented than males so a female version of anti-social would include more problems around emotions and relationships, as in BPD fear of abandonment, mood swings. Of course many (most) borderline individuals are not violent or criminally inclined, but they are tarred with this brush of malicious criminality. Maybe the label borderline tries to cover too much ground.
I am of course just thinking aloud. I am determined to figure out why borderlines are given such a time of things, just heavily cloaked in stigma. To be honest I had a psychiatrist once when I was in my early 20s who said I might be borderline PD. This was after having been dx by a major teaching hospital and a whole battery of tests as having manic depression, and should be on lithium for life. That dx was to counteract the misdiagnosis of schizophrenia when I was 19. Really it seems that was a psychotic manic episode. Along comes this psychiatrist and his colleague and they booted me out, said I was BPD and needed AA, and to stop wasting their time, and to stop being a waste of space. They were horrible. Their neglect has caused lasting damage, physical and emotional. Following this I have not been given a personality disorder dx by a number of varying psychiatrists. But I don't forget what happened to me--or what happened to some others I know.
An intersting story, though very tragic, was written up in the news last month. A man in his 70s committed suicide by jumping under a train. He was an in-patient at the time of his death, but the hospital staff had decided he should be discharged as there was nothing wrong with him. The coroner looked into it, and apparently he had been treated for depression for most of his adult life. But the hospital, covering their tracks I expect, argued that the man wasn't ill--he had a personality disorder. The coroner rode over that and insisted that the poor man had died as a result of some sort of depressive illness.
My fear with personality disorders is that they get misused by authorities who either want to lay the blame for lack of treatment success onto the person who is for some reason not getting better; or they want to shove someone out of the realm of illness and into the realm of police (this is something that is really distressing to me, deaths have resulted).
It's become fairly acceptable to say to people, oh you know--I suffer from depression; stress; ADD, or anxiety. Bipolar is iffy. Schizophrenia is still very stigmatized. Same for Borderline PD. And yet I can see that some people with BPD are going to get better without needing to be on chemicals for life. There is a high rate of BPD people who recover even without treatment after about age 35-40. Many can use 12-steps and therapy to deal with problems and learn new skills. I envy the person who is a little like a bipolar, with the best bits like creativity and excitement, passion and drama---but not long-lasting, mysterious mood switches and plunges that never cease over a lifetime and leave some perfectly able and good people on the fringes of society, disabled and disregarded. But now I'm just feeling sorry for myself!!!! Thanks for a lovely chat and I will keep looking for you all.
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