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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Penny on November 21, 2003, at 15:13:54
I'm just curious how many of you have had a therapist who has terminated your therapy for a not-so-good reason - not because they were moving away or something, but because you went to the hospital or you fell in love with him/her and admitted it, or something along those lines. And if your therapist did terminate your therapy, did he/she refer you to someone else or leave you hanging?
It just seems like this is a situation that keeps coming up on this board, and that really disturbs me.
Posted by Dinah on November 21, 2003, at 19:08:04
In reply to Therapists who terminate - a question, posted by Penny on November 21, 2003, at 15:13:54
It disturbs me too, Penny. It took my therapist five years to get me to trust him, another two or three before I trusted that he wouldn't deliberately abandon me. He is totally opposed to promising me anything, but I've come to believe that unless he moves or quits practice he won't hurt me in that way. Not if he's frustrated or angry with me. Not if he's scared. And I've come to believe that he truly understands how it will hurt me.
But I read these stories and I get scared all over again. And I know that if I posted from my heart I'd say something that would not be at all helpful. I'm not at all moderate or sensible on the subject.
I talk to him sometimes about these posts, and he answers in a way that feels reassuring to me. But in the end, I'm just a client and he has a life. If his life interferes with his practice, I'm going to be low on his list of priorities. I understand that rationally, but....
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 21, 2003, at 21:31:54
In reply to Re: Therapists who terminate - a question » Penny, posted by Dinah on November 21, 2003, at 19:08:04
There certainly are therapists who can't handle all the complexities of transference and countertransference with particular patients and who * solve* the anxiety this causes them by terminating them. This happened to me when I was in my twenties, and it hurt terribly for a long time.
But I think good therapists take some time to commit to their patients, and, when they do, one can count on their continued commitment. Mine even said right at the beginning that therapists (or analysts anyway) now have a more humble view of termination. He thinks that even when both people involved feel that really good changes have occurred in therapy, and a lot of the work is essentially done, that it is best not to close the door completely, but for the patients to know that they can always return, or. for some, that they will always be returning- just less frequently. This has taken such a weight off my mind, but I know I'm really lucky this time around.
However, I know that a number of people here have had horrible experiences with rejection by therapists when they were the most dependent and vulnerable. It's a good topic to explore more fully.
Pfinstegg
Posted by Dinah on November 21, 2003, at 21:38:22
In reply to Re: Therapists who terminate - a question » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on November 21, 2003, at 21:31:54
That's pretty much what my therapist says too. And I guess that's why your therapist is my second favorite in the world. :)
I've still got my plan in place though. And most of me hopes he doesn't remember to have some burly policemen on hand when/if he terminates me. Especially now. Harry's going to be gone soon. My husband.... Well, anyway, it's good to know that some therapists realize their importance to us.
And I agree. It's an excellent thread not only for discussing experiences, but for sharing the fears that those experiences bring up in us.
Posted by judy1 on November 22, 2003, at 12:43:34
In reply to Therapists who terminate - a question, posted by Penny on November 21, 2003, at 15:13:54
as I wrote on the thread to zenn, I was terminated after a suicide attempt. the doc actually called my husband on his cell phone while he was in my room visiting me and told him he could no longer treat me. my husband was speechless. i was devastated. there were no discussions about referrals or even some time for me to work with him about my feelings of being terminated. actually this is considered unethical in CA, there must be a written notice specifying 30 days before the actual termination. i vascillate between some understanding of how my suicide would have affected him, and extreme anger at what he did and how he did it. obviously it has affected my relationship with my present team (pdoc and therp) and this is 3 years later. i do understand the fears of some on this board, but i really think that most of you with established realtionships with your therps are fine, with the exception of people who exhibit borderline behavior- SI, repeated suicide attempts, etc., we really strain our therapists. the therp I have now has a great deal of experience with borderline clients and quite honestly I don't fear her terminating me nor do I fear my shrink (male) who has repeatedly shown he will stick by me. but once scarred, I don't know how long it is to heal.
sorry this was so negative, judy
Posted by judy1 on November 22, 2003, at 12:59:19
In reply to Re: Therapists who terminate - a question » Penny, posted by Dinah on November 21, 2003, at 19:08:04
Dinah,
when you write about your relationship with your therp, I guess I really don't understand your fears of termination- he seems so reassuring. are these general abandonment issues? or does it just involve your therp? what I'm trying to ask (hopefully not insensitively) is if you were abandoned by someone in the past, do you think that's affecting you now? I know I have very real issues about this dating back to childhood, and what my shrink's actions did was reinforce them. so now the trust in my shrink/therapist (which you said took you five years) seems insurmountable to me. I wonder if anyone out there was able to trust their therapist again after being terminated by another one.
take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on November 22, 2003, at 13:02:33
In reply to Re: Therapists who terminate - a question » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on November 21, 2003, at 21:31:54
May I ask how long it took you to heal? have you gained the level of trust with your present therp that you had with the one who terminated?
thank you, judy
Posted by Dinah on November 22, 2003, at 13:22:06
In reply to Re: Therapists who terminate - a question » Dinah, posted by judy1 on November 22, 2003, at 12:59:19
Partly it's got to do with him, because it is very important to him not to give a promise of forever therapy and it took him a long time to find the right way of balancing his needs with mine.
But obviously if it took five years to trust him to begin with, and given the remaining issues I do have, I have some serious abandonment issues from childhood.
Let's see. My parents split for a while when I was two? and my mom and I moved across the country to live with my grandparents. My mom worked full time a couple of hours away so I was mainly in my beloved grandmother's somewhat distracted (busy farmwife) care, and with the grandpa who didn't like me too much. We left them to go back to live with my dad when I was four.
None of that stricly abandonment issues I guess. Or maybe they were. They weren't identified by me as such at the time.
There was other stuff in the middle too. My main actual memory of abandonment, which wasn't really I suppose, is that my mom had a job that had her picking me up late from kindergarten. If she left on time, she'd pick me up 30 minutes late. But if she worked late, I could be left wandering around that big K-12 school for hours in the days before after school care. Never knowing whether or not the next car would be hers. Not knowing whether I should bother waiting in front. Wondering at some level if she was going to pick me up at all, and knowing on every level that I must not be as important as those kids (every other kindergartner) whose parents picked them up as soon as school was over. And this was within months of coming back from my grandparents too, so it may have been all tied together in my mind.
Or maybe it's just a genetic susceptibility to rejection sensitivity.
Who knows.
I'd never ever get over being abandoned by someone I spent five years learning to trust. And I do enough borderline behaviors to know that I am sometimes stressful to him, though I try to keep it to a level that won't cause him to abandon me.
I'm so sorry for your experience, Judy. I can't even imagine, except in my worst nightmares. I'm glad your current treatment team is caring enough to be understanding of your fears.
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 22, 2003, at 17:26:24
In reply to Re: Therapists who terminate - a question » Pfinstegg, posted by judy1 on November 22, 2003, at 13:02:33
Hi Judy.. I have to admit that I never completely healed from the sudden termination, and that it still is painful when I think of it. However, I rarely do think of it now (and - some years have passed!) That bad experience doesn't seem to have carried over to my relationship to my current therapist; he is so different in personality, and much warmer and more interactive, so with him I feel I have an island of safety, which I am trying to enlarge and intensify. Do you have fears you are carrying over from that experience? I think it was a thoughtless and horrible thing to do when you were having such a difficult time. At the very least, he could have waited until you felt more secure, and could have supported you through a switch to another therapist, if he felt that was in your best interest. It actually sounds like he didn't think at all.
Pfinstegg
Posted by judy1 on November 23, 2003, at 18:48:36
In reply to Re: Therapists who terminate - a question » judy1, posted by Pfinstegg on November 22, 2003, at 17:26:24
thank you for the support, and it helped me to know you hardly ever think of your past experience. I most definitely carry my feelings- it manifests itself more in the lack of trust department rather then fear of termination, but then if you don't allow yourself to get too close, you don't get hurt. I agree that he should have given me time to work on my feelings and help transition me, obviously he only thought of himself.
take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on November 23, 2003, at 18:53:31
In reply to Re: Therapists who terminate - a question » judy1, posted by Dinah on November 22, 2003, at 13:22:06
I agree that many of us are more sensitive to rejection then others- and that's partially shaped through childhood experiences. do you feel you will need 'forever therapy'? Obviously you are extremely close to your therapist, does he provide something that you don't get in your other relationships?- other then complete acceptance of course, I think that's universal for therapists.
take care, judy
Posted by Dinah on November 23, 2003, at 19:06:26
In reply to Re: Therapists who terminate - a question » Dinah, posted by judy1 on November 23, 2003, at 18:53:31
He's my safety. The first time I ever felt truly safe. Just as my old dog was my happiness. When I lost her, I lost my happiness. If I lose him, I'll lose my safety.
Yes I want forever therapy.
I have trouble internalizing these things. He says eventually I will, but I doubt it. I think I'm incapable of internalizing anything.
Posted by Dinah on November 23, 2003, at 19:38:14
In reply to Re: Therapists who terminate - a question » Dinah, posted by judy1 on November 23, 2003, at 18:53:31
I guess I should also add that I think I'm either going to have to be on forever more-than-I-want-to-take-meds, or forever therapy. I prefer the forever therapy, with minimal meds. Fewer side effects. Therapy supports my functioning through my only too frequent mood swings. If they invent the ideal meds that don't make me feel worse than they make me feel better, I may not need forever therapy.
Posted by Speaker on November 24, 2003, at 0:16:24
In reply to Re: Therapists who terminate - a question » judy1, posted by Dinah on November 23, 2003, at 19:38:14
I have shared here that my therapist just terminated me due to being put on probation for a dual relationship (non-sexual). I have been his client for many years and like you Dinah I think it was five years before I really trusted him. I have three sessions left...eeeek! My self talk is on a teter-totter when up its...well I have learned and worked through a lot and I will be fine...when down its total panic. I thought I had finally found a safe place...my therapist now tells me I have many safe places. It gets messy because I know he feels bad I'm leaving so I don't want to make him feel worse. He keeps telling me I need to get another therapist...is that to make him feel better or is that really what he thinks is best...he knows how long it takes me to trust. I thought I could go to someone to work through the termination and my feelings...then if I ever really get to the point of crisis I at least know someone. But I am mad I have to pay for someone to help me because the person I have been paying to help me caused so much pain. I went to my psychiatrist last week for a med ck. (don't like her at all, but only a 15 min. appt i can get through) when I told her I wasn't sleeping she said I was obsessing! I thought I was grieving...I have a lot of practice in grief. It makes me so mad that I pay for someone to be so stupid. Well, I am rambling...sorry. I go for my appt. tomorrow and I have a list of what we have worked through since I started. It is a list of 68 items...its hard to be mad but it makes me very sad and untrusting of this process. Thanks for sharing you guys I thought I was the only one that would feel this bad.
Posted by Dinah on November 24, 2003, at 0:40:16
In reply to Re: Therapists who terminate/I got the pink slip!, posted by Speaker on November 24, 2003, at 0:16:24
Don't worry too much about his feelings. He's still the one wearing the professional hat in that office. He gave you a lot and helped you a lot and it's great to acknowledge that. But he's also hurt you, and it's ok to acknowledge that as well.
I understand your anger at having to have therapy to get over therapy. I understand it's not that uncommon a phenomenon. And I completely understand that it's a grief process. How could you not grieve the loss of a long term positive relationship? (15 minutes, 15 minutes - just keep reminding yourself of that)
Do you feel like you do have other safe places now? Can you list a few of those as well?
Posted by Still Hurting on November 24, 2003, at 18:24:03
In reply to Therapists who terminate - a question, posted by Penny on November 21, 2003, at 15:13:54
Yes the bitch terminated me too because I became attached to her. My attentions towards her made her feel afraid/threatened. She terminated me because she felt that I wanted a lesbian relationship with her. Humm, I think I did. But now analyzing the shit, she was right, but wrong in how she handled it. Hopefully, she should have separated herself and herself the therapist and worked with me to get to the bottom of the shit. But instead she ran like an ass which has caused me great emotional pain. Cause like hell do I want to give as much knowledge of myself to another person.
Posted by zenn4 on November 25, 2003, at 10:02:40
In reply to Therapists who terminate - a question, posted by Penny on November 21, 2003, at 15:13:54
It is very disturbing when a therapist can't handle feelings of transference/counter-transference. You aren't necessarily dumped because you are a borderline (I'm not) or any other reason than the therapist is a person who has their own limits as well. They have their own history, their own baggage - you can only hope the person you're working with has had enough years of therapy themselves to know what's what and whose who's. It has been pointed out to me that even though this therapist still *cares*, it doesn't negate the fact she's gone. I guess, after all I've been through, I just keep in my mind - yes - someone terminating you is always a possibliity, albeit a terrible one - but hopefully another door will open in its place.
Posted by Penny on November 25, 2003, at 10:21:42
In reply to Re: Therapists who terminate - a question » Penny, posted by zenn4 on November 25, 2003, at 10:02:40
Thanks to all for responding. It's not that I can't understand how a therapist could terminate a client, but I guess I have very little respect for those who go about it the wrong way. I acknowledge that there must be times when the therapist has to terminate immediately, but I would expect those situations to be few and far between.
I'm so sorry that so many of you have had to experience losing a therapist in an abrupt manner. It just isn't right.
P
Posted by judy1 on November 25, 2003, at 10:27:09
In reply to Re: Therapists who terminate - a question » Penny, posted by zenn4 on November 25, 2003, at 10:02:40
Penny,
that was a really good answer. I didn't mean to imply that the only terminations come from dealing with BPD, as you pointed out therps have their own baggage. I ALSO was terminated because of a boundary crossing by my shrink (counter-transference), and he was told by his advisor to end the therapeutic relationship and personal one. I've written about this countless times, but I realize there are a lot of new readers here.
take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on November 25, 2003, at 10:27:51
In reply to Re: Therapists who terminate - a question » zenn4, posted by judy1 on November 25, 2003, at 10:27:09
Posted by judy1 on November 25, 2003, at 10:33:34
In reply to Re: Therapists who terminate - a question » judy1, posted by Dinah on November 23, 2003, at 19:38:14
I really agree with your method of therapy over meds, it's definitely a longer road but one I feel gives you the coping skills to deal with life while meds are a band-aid. You asked another poster if they had other safety people, do you have any? has your therapist helped you discover or cultivate them? I'm sorry about your dog, I have one who is 13 years old (a malamute) and while he just shows signs of arthritis- any herbal suggestions?- he was my 'first child' and I would be devastated if (when) anything happens to him.
take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on November 25, 2003, at 10:37:04
In reply to Re: Therapists who terminate/I got the pink slip!, posted by Speaker on November 24, 2003, at 0:16:24
of course you're grieving. I tend to agree with your therp that you need to get another one ASAP- did he ever give you references? I am so glad (and envious) that you have this time to work out some of your termination issues, while I don't believe you will be 'fine' in a month, I truly feel you will make a lot of progress. and what about follow up calls if you need them?
take care, judy
Posted by Speaker on November 25, 2003, at 21:06:37
In reply to Re: Therapists who terminate/I got the pink slip! » Speaker, posted by judy1 on November 25, 2003, at 10:37:04
Do you think follow up calls are appropriate? If I ask for them and he says no...that will be more hurt. If he sets up a time will it just start the pain cycle all over? He did give me referals...if fact I went to one today NOT A FIT!!! I go to another one tomorrow. I hate this!
Posted by judy1 on November 26, 2003, at 11:54:49
In reply to Re: Therapists who terminate/I got the pink slip!, posted by Speaker on November 25, 2003, at 21:06:37
I can understand your fear that you may be setting yourself up for more pain if you ask for phone calls. I guess I view it as a done deal anyway, and if at the end of your 'termination' sessions, you still have things you need to say, then it shouldn't be a problem to call. I STILL call mine (after 3 years) and it has helped tremendously, we're actually civil to each other- but then he didn't give me any sessions, he ended it suddenly. You may feel you're just prolonging the pain, I guess it really is a personal decision.
take care, judy
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