![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Penny on October 23, 2003, at 14:31:49
What's the difference (other than the obvious - education, titles, professional organizations, etc.)?
The ultimate goal, assuming once again that I can get my head on straight between now and then, is to be a psychotherapist. I've seen both an LCSW and a Ph.D., and much about their therapy styles have been similar though my current T (a psychologist) seems more apt to talk about research and theory whereas my former therapist (a social worker) was more practical in her approach.
I don't want an M.A. in Counseling. I know that much. I'm leaning toward the MSW, b/c it's 2 years, I don't need any additional classwork to prepare for the program (though I do need some more volunteer and/or paid social work experience), and it probably just fits my life plan a bit better. Still, the idea of getting a Ph.D. appeals to me as well. Maybe because I like the approach my current therapist takes often moreso than my former therapist, and my current T has a Ph.D.
I just got an email from the graduate student services manager at the dept of psychology where I work and she said, "1300 for the GRE on average, 3.5 - 3.7 GPA in the major, 19-25 graduate student slots for 600+ applicants each year." Plus she alluded to my needing an undergraduate degree in psychology, though what she actually said was that I would need all or most of the classes that an undergraduate degree program would require to be competitive. I've only had 2 psych classes and biology. There would be lots more to take.
I guess I just hate feeling like I 'can't' do something, and I don't like choosing something because it's the 'easier' option - the 2 years of social work school vs. a however-many-years Ph.D. program. Not that getting into an MSW program isn't going to be challenging, not that they're not competitive, but they're not AS competitive as the Ph.D. program here.
And I guess part of me still wants to be a doctor. Which I guess is not in the cards.
Anyway - for those of you who can compare experiences (either as patient or practitioner) of psychologists vs. social workers vs. counselors - what do you think?
P
Posted by kitkat33 on October 23, 2003, at 16:34:38
In reply to Psychologists vs. Social Workers vs. Counselors, posted by Penny on October 23, 2003, at 14:31:49
Hi,
I think that it's great that you want to be a therapist. I bet there is very little difference in practice between the two, like you said you've seen both and they can be similar. I beleive that a social worker who is compassionate listens and understands people is better than a phd who doesn't have a clue what is really going on. I've heard of therapy lots of times described as art. I think, only my two sense mind you is that you should go for whatever in your gut that you really feel you want to be Dr. etc. The title of phd would probably allow you to make more money in the end. Take Care and good luck, kit
Posted by shar on October 23, 2003, at 19:31:24
In reply to Re: Psychologists vs. Social Workers vs. Counselors, posted by kitkat33 on October 23, 2003, at 16:34:38
I have a ph.d., have seen many a ph.d., and a few psychiatrists, and a couple of msw's as a patient (I'm old and have been in therapy forever).
My bias comes from being in school with ph.d. students and seeing up-close their attitudes. My area was social-developmental-quantitative, so I wasn't in their therapy oriented classes, but I shared many other classes with them, and the general cameraderie that students have.
I always tell people if they want to help others, become an MSW/LCSW/MFC etc. The doctoral students had many courses in research, and many planned to go on to college teaching and not therapy, and there was a huge focus on publishing before graduation and trying to hook up with some of the more well-known faculty to further their upcoming careers. That was true for me, too, but that was what people in my area planned on doing to start with--not become therapists.
The attitude I've observed from fellow ph.d.'s who do counseling is (1) 'they' don't need/want therapy, and (2) they are self-absorbed to a greater degree (so to speak) than MSWs.
The attitudes I describe could be an aberration, only prevalent in my university. I don't know.
I say if you want to help people, become an MSW.
'Dr.' Shar (heh)
Posted by Tabitha on October 23, 2003, at 19:49:51
In reply to I'm biased on this one, posted by shar on October 23, 2003, at 19:31:24
There's a relatively new psychology doctorate degree- PsyD, that's supposed to be for folks who want clinical rather than research careers. I read about it when I was briefly flirting with the idea of going into the field. Maybe it's only in california.
Posted by Tabitha on October 23, 2003, at 19:53:20
In reply to Re: I'm biased on this one, posted by Tabitha on October 23, 2003, at 19:49:51
the only one I've known was a terrible listener, not very self-aware, and about 20 years behind on med research-- despite that he was a student of a pioneer in psychotherapy at one of the best schools.
Posted by galkeepinon on October 24, 2003, at 2:15:31
In reply to I'm biased on this one, posted by shar on October 23, 2003, at 19:31:24
Posted by fallsfall on October 24, 2003, at 7:08:57
In reply to yep become an MSW~more jobs;-) (nm), posted by galkeepinon on October 24, 2003, at 2:15:31
I have seen mostly PhDs, but my old group therapist is an MSW. A friend also sees an MSW.
My feeling (which is probably not based in reality) is that initially the PhDs have more skills to draw from, but that once both have been in practice for 10 or 15 years it doesn't matter anymore - they can both be equally effective - then personality matters more.
Another difference (I think this is true), is that PhDs are able to sign stuff that MSWs can't - like the "Doctor's" note to put you on disability. I think that MSWs have a relationship with either an MD or PhD to generate that kind of document. I could be wrong.
I would think that initially, the MSWs would work with more straight forward cases, though as they mature I think they can certainly gain the knowledge necessary for the toughest cases.
Maybe it is like the difference between an MD and a Nurse Practitioner. If you see an MD for a sprained ankle, he'll tell you to put ice on it and take these pills. If you see a Nurse Practitioner, she'll tell you to put ice on it and to do exercises to strengthen your ankle so you won't sprain it again (Draw the alphabet with your toes in the air - great exercise). They both work, just looking at it from a different angle.
We see the same kind of difference between pdocs and therapists (pills or talk). I'm thinking there is a similar philosophical difference between PhD therapists and MSW therapists. Not quite sure what it is.
Posted by Penny on October 24, 2003, at 8:12:36
In reply to Psychologists vs. Social Workers vs. Counselors, posted by Penny on October 23, 2003, at 14:31:49
Well, I talked to my T about it last night - she's got a Ph.D. - and she said that she just thinks the path to becoming a psychologist, at least at the university where I work (which is where we both earned our degrees) is so LOOOONNNNGGGG...and I agree.
Anyway, I told her that my main reservation is concern about the differences in the the training. Regardless of whether I choose the social work or the psychology path, the fact that I would like, some day, to be in private practice has to remain my little secret, so to speak. The MSW program here is pretty keen on folks, even clinical folks, working in the public sector - hospitals, treatment centers, etc. And that's okay, since that's where I would start anyway. I do need the experience to get the certification afterall...
And, of course, the Ph.D. program here is primarily concerned with research. And I have no research experience.
My T's thoughts were that I probably wouldn't make that much less as an MSW than as a Ph.D. in private practice (though I would make less), the road is shorter to the MSW, and the training is adequate. She said, too, that whatever differences there are between psychology and social work therapy, it would really be up to me in regards to how much additional reading, learning, etc., I would do. And, of course, I wouldn't be able to conduct psychological testing.
The MSW makes much more sense, and I know that...and that's not to say that I can never get my Ph.D. in something. I've always thought that I might like to work in academia again someday.
Anyway, the whole discussion brought up other issues, about my 'intelligence' and so on, but that's worthy of another thread, if I feel the urge...
P
Posted by judy1 on October 24, 2003, at 10:19:13
In reply to Re: Psychologists vs. Social Workers vs. Counselors, posted by Penny on October 24, 2003, at 8:12:36
Penny,
It sounds as if you looked at all the angles and made a good decision- for the short-term future an MSW is probably the best option. My experience pretty much mirrors shars- Ph.Ds tend to be research oriented while MSWs are usually clinically focused. If your desire is to help people, then getting an MSW will help you achieve that in the shortest possible time.
best of luck- judy
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2003, at 10:39:23
In reply to Re: Psychologists vs. Social Workers vs. Counselors, posted by Penny on October 24, 2003, at 8:12:36
In our area, psychologists do mostly testing because they are the only ones who can, and there aren't that many of them. They do some therapy as well, though most of them seem to specialize in kids. Their training is more broadspread than merely therapy.
The social workers do a lot of casework, which burns you out pretty quickly. So their training is also diverse.
My therapist is a counselor, which is not as well respected a degree, and the fees for most (although not him) are not as high.
But when it comes to actual therapy, I'm guessing your internship and supervision matter a whole lot more than your schoolwork. My therapist did work with a hospital, worked with a psychiatrist in private practice, received a lot of supervision, and eventually did a lot of supervision. Get a good spot for your internship and get good supervision, and I'm sure you'll do fine whichever degree you go for.
Posted by kitkat33 on October 27, 2003, at 13:15:26
In reply to Re: Psychologists vs. Social Workers vs. Counselors, posted by Dinah on October 24, 2003, at 10:39:23
It sounds like a really good plan to me! Good Luck.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.