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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Medusa on October 6, 2003, at 10:48:28
There's a systems therapy institute about an hour from me that trains therapists by means of an observation system. The trainee and the client are in one room, and five team members/supervisors/fellow trainees observe the session on a television in another room. The trainee wears an earphone so her teammates can offer suggestions. After 45 minutes, there's a break, and the trainee discusses the session so far with her teammates, and then there's another 45 minutes.
This is really appealing to me. I feel like therapists have bullied me in the past - not out of meanness, but just because they couldn't open their heads to another idea, including the idea that in some respects I was just different, not unhealthy. The most extreme case - and where trainees/observers were a huge help to me - was when I was in college. The therapist jerked me around a lot, but taught me some really helpful "self-hypnosis" exercises. He was so pleased with how I'd learned his relaxation techniques that he asked me to demonstrate for his trainees ... and while they were there, I found the courage to ask him not to use certain terms, that I felt were moralistic. He said there was nothing moralistic about his language, and his trainees sided with me. I later found out that the prior year he'd been the therapist for a girl who stabbed her roommate to death and then hanged herself. He was a real mind-job ... in front of his trainees, he accused me of absenteeism - but he'd canceled several sessions, and sometimes I'd shown up and he wasn't there. I hadn't missed one session. His trainees seemed to be the only ones who believed me.
Obviously, most therapists aren't like this, but I somehow present myself in such a way that my requests for help don't get taken seriously, and I'm interested in getting as much feedback as possible on how I provoke certain reactions.
Even in my attempt to get an appointment in this institute, I ran into this problem. I explained on the phone to the intake person that I specifically wanted the two-room observation system. A few weeks later, a therapist called me and scheduled an appointment ... and it turned out that she was a free-lancer who'd trained there and somehow was allowed (?) to fish out clients from the waiting list. I went anyway, and she was a case. Probably trying to "connect", she went on about how her son had wanted to study in Boston but it hadn't worked out. (Oh, wow lady! somebody is actually interested in studying in a town where I lived and there are hundreds of thousands of students, I'm so flattered, instant connection!) And when I said I needed help identifying goals, she decided on her own that before the next session, I should finish sewing a suit I'd mentioned I was making. I tried really hard to explain to her what I wanted, but she dismissed all my arguments. She offered me another appointment, and I said I'd call within a week if I decided I wanted it. I never called, but the kicker was that she called on the day of the appointment she'd offered me, asking where I was. So I wrote a long letter outlining my frustration with her and asking her what I could have done to get her to take me seriously. And I faxed the letter to the institute on a Tuesday, knowing that she only works there on Fridays. I felt like she would cover her tracks, and I know it was a little mean to publicly complain about her talking about her personal problems in my first session, but whatever, I'm sick of protecting therapists.
And last week, a young trainee called, and I have my first session tomorrow night.
Of course, now I'm scared, wondering who actually saw the letter I sent, even though everything is true. And I don't know how to begin in this therapy setting.
Well, that was long and rambly! I'd be interested in any thoughts you might have for gone-then-here-then-gone-then-here boardie about how to approach this ideal thing I really had my heart set on ... and am finally getting.
Posted by Poet on October 6, 2003, at 13:01:21
In reply to Therapy, Observed, posted by Medusa on October 6, 2003, at 10:48:28
You are brave! I have trouble talking one on one.
I wouldn't let that letter worry you. Had you gotten the observed session you asked for in the first place, you wouldn't have had to write it. Another example of therapists not paying attention to your needs.
I think that you should tell your trainee and observers exactly why you requested an observed session. Tell him/her/them what you told us: your history of therapists not taking your needs/requests for help seriously.
Then get into why you are seeing a therapist: whatever it is you need help on.
As to why no one in the past has taken you seriously all I can think of is that you aren't making yourself clear as to why you are there. Though a good therapist should be able to ask the right questions and get clarification.
I think the one who talked about Boston was just trying to make you feel comfortable, but she should have caught on that you were getting annoyed.
Let me know how your session goes.
Poet
Posted by Tabitha on October 6, 2003, at 13:40:08
In reply to Therapy, Observed, posted by Medusa on October 6, 2003, at 10:48:28
Wow. Stories like that make me want to cling tenaciously to my therapist forever. Bad therapists are truly frightening.
I don't think I could really open up in an observed session though. I wonder if there are any therapists who practice in pairs-- like the movie critic shows where you get 2 simultaneous opinions.
All I can say is good luck with this. And I wouldn't be too quick to say it's your own fault for not getting the help you want. Even if you don't present your needs clearly, therapists are supposed to read people well. Maybe you just haven't met many good ones.
And on a social note-- nice to see you!
Posted by Dinah on October 6, 2003, at 19:21:15
In reply to Therapy, Observed, posted by Medusa on October 6, 2003, at 10:48:28
It's scary to get what you've always wanted isn't it? I don't have any brilliant thoughts to add other than what others have said. Be open about what you're thinking and your worries.
Let us know how it goes. I'd be interested in hearing your impression of this therapy approach.
Posted by Medusa on October 7, 2003, at 15:25:20
In reply to Re: Therapy, Observed » Medusa, posted by Poet on October 6, 2003, at 13:01:21
Well, either I can't count or there were five trainees PLUS trainers in the observation room. And the feedback earpiece the therapist wore was an interesting interruption. She would nod and say uh huh, uh huh - and not be talking to me, but to the supervisor.
We didn't get to any therapy, though - she had to take down my entire circus performance tour of therapists. I left a few out, but I really couldn't remember every encounter off the cuff like that. Yes, I'm a promiscuous therapy-ee.
She said that her goal is for this to be my last therapy. I think that's not unrealistic, in some ways - I've learned to get specific help in specific ways, to MAKE some things better by gaining skills that no amount of understanding and talk from a therapist could give me. Such as preparing a toast with a rhetoric coach rather than fretting for weeks about the event (then-inlaw snakepit) where I had to give it. I have an appointment with a career coach, which should be results-oriented. I want to work more on the DBT skills, whether on-line, in a group, or with an individual therapist. I'm getting "mothering" I never got by paying for services like a weekly cleaning person and taxis when it's storming, and skills-training like the rhetoric coach. Did I mention that after the systems/short-term therapy I did last winter, where the therapist told me I wasn't sufficiently feminine, that I spent what formerly went to her fee on really, really nice underthings? It's time for another round of THAT kind of therapy!
I really don't want to go on being wrapped up in family problems for the rest of my life, or even the next two years. So this short-term, systemic approach - which has moved mountains in my one experience with it - is appealing. I know that I have to get my own compassion etc elsewhere - I don't expect that from these therapists. I *am* pretty sure that they could get a _lot_ of my stuck points un-stuck.
I have my next appointment in three weeks. We'll see.
Thanks for the tips and encouragement before my session.
Posted by Poet on October 8, 2003, at 9:38:38
In reply to The Last Therapy, Oh My!, posted by Medusa on October 7, 2003, at 15:25:20
Hi Medusa,
I think your plan of doing short term with the trainee is a good one. While the observed thing still scares me, you have the benefit of more than one person listening and interpreting.
Wouldn't you just love to hear what they were saying when you rattled off your therapy experience? I can imagine the looks they exchanged.
I've only been in therapy for a little over a year and currently think that I am getting no where at a slow and expensive pace. I know that I am to blame for much of it as I just don't open up to her. I am determined to stick with it and since I am paying for it I need to start getting my moneys worth and not just sit there and stare.
Like you, I am doing reading on my own, my therapist actually lends me books or books on CD. So she approves of my trying to better understand my issues.
I just have got this rut in my brain (her terminology) that positive self-esteem is dependent on getting a better job. To make a long boring career story short, I have been stuck for four years in a job where I am an underpaid, non-entity. The only plus is that since no one pays any attention to me I can sit and do postings while getting paid for it.
My career counselor says my resume and interviewing skills are great, so having zero self-esteem, I blame myself for being myself.
When you get a chance, try to translate the info. on self-esteem and send it to me in a post.Poet
Posted by HannahW on October 8, 2003, at 22:55:49
In reply to The Last Therapy, Oh My!, posted by Medusa on October 7, 2003, at 15:25:20
>Yes, I'm a promiscuous therapy-ee.
Some of us are therapy "HOs!" :) That makes me think of my favorite quote from "In Session" (This is just a paraphrase) "Seeing a therapist is like seeing a prostitute. You go in, and even though it's awkward, you hurry up and take off your clothes so you can get what you came for. Then, just when you're feeling relaxed and comfortable, you have to hurry up and put your clothes back on so someone else can use the room." That cracks me up whenever I think about it.
>
> She said that her goal is for this to be my last therapy. I think that's not unrealistic, in some ways - I've learned to get specific help in specific ways, to MAKE some things better by gaining skills that no amount of understanding and talk from a therapist could give me. Such as preparing a toast with a rhetoric coach rather than fretting for weeks about the event (then-inlaw snakepit) where I had to give it. I have an appointment with a career coach, which should be results-oriented. I want to work more on the DBT skills, whether on-line, in a group, or with an individual therapist.Good for you for taking control of things! I think that's really, really great! I have no idea how old you are, but do you remember that song by Swingout Sister, "Break Out?" It's about breaking away from the crap in your life, and you make me think of that.
>I'm getting "mothering" I never got by paying for services like a weekly cleaning person and taxis when it's storming, and skills-training like the rhetoric coach.
That is an absolutely fabulous way of looking at the "mothering" issue. Those are really wonderful ways of taking care of yourself the way a perfect mother--the one we all wish we had--would. (I always had to clean the entire house myself when I was a kid while my fat-donkeyed dad just sat there and watched. Oh--he was considerate enough to lift his legs so I could vaccuum under them!)
>Did I mention that after the systems/short-term therapy I did last winter, where the therapist told me I wasn't sufficiently feminine, that I spent what formerly went to her fee on really, really nice underthings? It's time for another round of THAT kind of therapy!
You absolutely rock! Why haven't I met you before?! (I went to the chiropractor yesterday and was horrified when I realized that my socks had holes in them, and I was wearing iron underwear! Oh, the humiliation!)
I really hope for all the best for you. I admire that you've taken your life by the horns and you're going to force it into submission! Good for you! You're an inspiration. :)
Posted by Medusa on October 12, 2003, at 18:34:06
In reply to Re: The Last Therapy, Oh My!, posted by HannahW on October 8, 2003, at 22:55:49
Hannah('s mum), thanks for taking the time and making the thought to reply to my post in such depth.
Posted by Medusa on October 12, 2003, at 18:40:38
In reply to Re: The Last Therapy, Oh My! » Medusa, posted by Poet on October 8, 2003, at 9:38:38
>
> I can imagine the looks they exchanged.
>Heh. The therapist with me seemed surprised that we hadn't gotten to any therapy at all during the session.
I wonder if any of the trainees will speak up about their opinions, though - the voice on the therapist's earphone the whole time was that of the one man in the room. (He's a co-director of the center.) I *definitely* have issues with that.
>
> I just have got this rut in my brain (her terminology) that positive self-esteem is dependent on getting a better job.
>I don't think it's a rut. I think that self-esteem is partly based on our productive contribution to humanity. Which doesn't come by us sitting behind desks, staring into space or surfing the 'net.
>
> When you get a chance, try to translate the info. on self-esteem and send it to me in a post.
>I did a rough translation ... and the stuff seems soooooooooo simplistic! I'll post it, but don't laugh too hard at me finding that inspiring. Maybe reading it in another language was what I needed to get simple concepts around my defenses.
I'm going to be away for a little over a week, but when I get back, I'd be really interested in discussing this self-esteem package with you.
Posted by Medusa on October 29, 2003, at 6:35:20
In reply to Re: The Last Therapy, Oh My!, posted by HannahW on October 8, 2003, at 22:55:49
> Some of us are therapy "HOs!" :)
Well, I walked into the room Tuesday, sat down, and the therapist had a huge easel where all the therapy jaunts I'd revealed were listed. I'd missed a few. She wanted to know what all of these "failed therapies" had in common.
>"In Session"Is this a movie?
> I have no idea how old you are,
almost 30, but I grew up without a TV, and still don't watch much, so I'm pop-culture-illiterate.
>Swingout Sister, "Break Out?"
Is this a singer, or a tv program? or what?
> my fat-donkeyed dad just sat there and watched. Oh--he was considerate enough to lift his legs so I could vaccuum under them!)
>Blech. At least my parents worked alongside us, but it was really a bit much to expect us to support their career options the way they did.
> (I went to the chiropractor yesterday and was horrified when I realized that my socks had holes in them, and I was wearing iron underwear! Oh, the humiliation!)
>Oh, hon! Who cares about the humiliation - what others think is null. But think about tossing the sacred (holey!) socks and any underwear you don't love, and getting some good stuff. Yeah, it'll cost you, but every day you'll have the pleasure of feeling lovely.
I've been waiting to buy new underwear ... but have been tossing the cotton undies that are getting really, really worn. I found an internet supplier of my favorite brands (they're supposed to be boutique-only, but someone's got around or is ignoring the selective distribution requirements, yay!) and might just find a way to cut other costs ...
This is the end of the thread.
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