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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Mark H. on May 20, 2003, at 20:29:52
I've recently noticed a number of similarities that I would like to share between development stage practice in Buddhism and CBT. Here's a brief list:
1.) Positive assumptions about the nature of experience that cannot be proven or disproven, but that shape beliefs in a direction that is less harmful and more helpful. An example is the idea that everyone you meet has been your mother or father in a past life, and is therefore deserving of your respect and compassion.
2.) Application of antidotes to the afflictive emotions (e.g., patience as an antidote to anger). To use the above example, if I have the habit of getting angry at bad drivers who endanger others, to think of each of them as my mother or father allows me to observe their behavior and make adjustments to my own driving without experiencing anger.
3.) Awareness of the emptiness of all phenomena (e.g., afflictive emotions and negative thoughts arise and subside without any inherent meaning or permanence). I’m usually attached to my strongest feelings. I want to be right. Yet if I look closely, grasping itself is the source of my suffering. What would happen if I let go of the need to judge everything that arises?
4.) Forgiveness of self and others (e.g., the importance of letting go of old hurts I’ve experienced and of visualizing benefit and fulfillment for those I’ve harmed).
5.) Gratitude as the active acknowledgement of all the good things I experience, even on my worst days.
6.) Honest regret (without guilt or shame) for my mistakes, and a daily-renewed commitment to harmlessness and helpfulness.
7.) Generosity as a statement of faith in abundance (including good health, satisfying relationships at home and work, and being able to meet life’s needs) and in the principle of karma (what goes around comes around, and what we focus on tends to increase).
8.) Joyful perseverance as a decision to choose happiness, to look for what is good, and to practice harmlessness, even when things don’t go my way.
CBT recognizes the changeable quality of mind and our ability to influence how we think and feel. By becoming more observant and applying these principles over time, CBT claims we can measurably improve our lives.
I gave some thought as to whether I should post this here or on the Faith board, and I elected to post it to Psychological Babble because the principles are secular and not unique to any religious belief (or lack of belief). I hope someone finds them helpful.
With kind regards,
Mark H.
Posted by noa on May 21, 2003, at 17:12:15
In reply to Cognitive Therapy and Buddhism, posted by Mark H. on May 20, 2003, at 20:29:52
I think Mindfulness is a big one, too. And the patience to not act automatically, but to be mindful of how one acts and reacts.
I think one major difference would be that Budhism would tend to emphasize more of a trust of the non-rational, whereas cognitive therapy is more oriented toward rational thought.
Posted by ~Alii~ on May 23, 2003, at 0:40:54
In reply to Cognitive Therapy and Buddhism, posted by Mark H. on May 20, 2003, at 20:29:52
Thank you Mark for your thoughtful approach to these two subjects. Much to gnaw on.
Appreciated.
Wishing you peace on your path.
~Alii
Posted by mattdds on May 24, 2003, at 23:19:49
In reply to Cognitive Therapy and Buddhism, posted by Mark H. on May 20, 2003, at 20:29:52
Hello Mark,
Good to see you posting again!
I have noticed these similarities as well. You have done a very good job here. I have always thought of CBT as a sort of secular-spiritual journey (since I'm not really a believer in any particulary religion).
Dr. David Burns also has noted some of the similarities between CBT and Buddhism. If you surf around on his website, www.feelinggood.com (really hard site to navigate, but I think it's under his answers to questions on religion). He also details similarities between Buddhism (as well as other religions) in his book "Ten Days to Self Esteem".
Great to hear from you again, and thanks for your thoughtful post.
Best,
Matt
Posted by Dinah on May 25, 2003, at 15:22:34
In reply to Re: Cognitive Therapy and Buddhism » Mark H., posted by mattdds on May 24, 2003, at 23:19:49
Posted by babs on May 26, 2003, at 15:48:40
In reply to Re: DBT combines the two even more (nm), posted by Dinah on May 25, 2003, at 15:22:34
Dinah- What is DBT? I've never heard of it. Thanks, babs
Posted by ~Alii~ on May 26, 2003, at 17:52:17
In reply to Re: DBT combines the two even more » Dinah, posted by babs on May 26, 2003, at 15:48:40
There are posts going over it in the archives here. Just do a search on this site about DBT or Dialetic Behavioural Therapy.
I don't know too much about it but know others here have been through it and could offer up more info if the searches don't pull up what you need.
~Alii
Here is one link talking about the differences between Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and Dialetic Behavioural Therapy (CBT and DBT)
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20020516/msgs/146.html
Posted by Dinah on May 26, 2003, at 21:56:38
In reply to Re: DBT combines the two even more » Dinah, posted by babs on May 26, 2003, at 15:48:40
Dialectical Behavior Therapy is a form of therapy pioneered by Marsha Linehan. She found that cognitive behavior therapy was often dropped by the group of suicidal and self injuring patients that she was trying to reach. Her idea was to combine the elements of change of CBT with extra acceptance of the patient where they were now. Since acceptance and change are somewhat opposite, she thought of it in terms of dialectics. I'm not a scholar in this area, but I think that means that there is tension between the two, and the therapist needs to be balanced somewhere between?
I believe she says that she borrowed from eastern philosophy as well as cognitive behavioral therapy to come up with her "skills training".
Here's a link:
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=1020
I wish I could try it, because it seems to have a lot to offer for someone like me. But I can't find anyone in my area who offers it. My therapist uses some of the same ideas but doesn't apply them in the same systematic manner. I don't know, maybe that works better for me. I'm the most stubborn person alive.
Posted by fallsfall on May 26, 2003, at 22:07:00
In reply to Re: DBT combines the two even more » babs, posted by Dinah on May 26, 2003, at 21:56:38
I have done DBT. There is another current thread where I put some information: "http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20030407/msgs/227595.html";
It is designed for people with Borderline Personality Disorder, but I think that it could be useful for many (most?) people.
I would be happy to answer specific questions.
Dinah, even if there isn't a skills training group in your area, there may be a therapist who does DBT. I have a friend who goes to a therapist nearby and they spend part of the session doing DBT skills training.
I highly recommend the book if you ever read stuff that is written for therapists. The skills training manual has the pages they use for handouts in the back - so even if you can't do it formally you could try to go through some of it yourself (or ask your therapist particular questions).
It has been very helpful for me.
Posted by Dinah on May 26, 2003, at 22:22:32
In reply to Re: DBT combines the two even more, posted by fallsfall on May 26, 2003, at 22:07:00
Hi Fallsfall. :)
Yes, I've read both the skills training material and the book and watched the video. I was that impressed with it. And I did go through a period of trying to be more systematic about using the handbook and handouts. But I'm lousy at systematic. I can't even keep a mood journal.
What my therapist knows of the technique he learned from me. I brought in the skills manual with highlighted sections and read it to him. But he didn't seem interested in going further with it, and honestly, since he isn't trained in it, that may be just as well. It seems like it's a training intensive program. She emphasizes over and over again that it's the therapist attitude that really makes the program work. And I think that's probably true, since the tension between acceptance and change has to come from the therapist. You can probably learn the skills in a self help way, and that's probably useful, but you can't get the acceptance and validation portion of the treatment that way.
Still, I probably should read that manual again and maybe pick out a few skills to work on. Even if used as a self help manual, I still think the approach has merit.
Posted by fallsfall on May 27, 2003, at 7:24:20
In reply to Re: DBT combines the two even more, posted by Dinah on May 26, 2003, at 22:22:32
Hey Dinah,
Hmmm. I brought the Skills Training Manual to my therapist, too. She later said "You are the first patient to bring me a Skills Training Manual, and a good one at that!" She got both books and read them. We found a Skills Training Group which I attended and she went to weekly(?) meetings with that DBT group (at no charge to me - I think she saw it as a training opportunity). Sometimes she refers to DBT and stuff I was supposed to have learned (mindfulness....). I should look back over it, too. I want to read through the therapist instructions in the skills training manual to understand the exercises better. But they, like my therapist, assume that certain concepts are understood (like the basic mindfulness stuff), and I have no clue about them (it is like talking to a blind person about color). Guess I'll have to keep seeing my therapist (what a shame).
Posted by Dinah on May 27, 2003, at 8:42:26
In reply to Re: DBT combines the two even more » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on May 27, 2003, at 7:24:20
What a shame indeed! (smile)
It sounds like you have a gem there! My therapist just wouldn't do that. Not even my very strong hints about the lack of a very valuable service in the area, and the financial wisdom of someone trying to fill it, was motivation enough for him. I have to admit, though, that this wouldn't be included in the areas he would prefer to specialize in. I think he would prefer to concentrate on - ok don't die here - corporate and motivational psychology, teambuilding, etc. Nonetheless, whatever his goals are, he is good at what he does with me. I'm just not sure he wants a practice full of me's.
I think it's fabulous that your therapist was so enthusiastic about learning more. I long ago gave up on the idea of my therapist reading anything outside of session. There was one book that was such an ah-hah experience for me, that so perfectly summed up what I was feeling, that I offered to pay him to read a specific part of the book. He agreed, I gave him my copy, and he mentioned once that he had read the first few pages. Then nothing more was said about it, I never got my book back, etc. I wonder if him telling me that he had read a few pages was supposed to be a hint for me to ask him how much I owed him so far. Geesh, I'm a cynic.
I had rather anticipated this outcome, so I had immediately ordered a replacement book for myself. I wonder if I should highlight the parts that particularly moved me and read them outloud at a few sessions. But I'm afraid that will remind him that he never read the book, and I don't want to do that. There is something so deeply humiliating about asking someone to do something they aren't willing to do. Or at least there is for me. I just want the whole subject to go away and I'll never suggest that he read something again.
You've got a real winner there, Fallsfall. I'm glad you're in the process of working things out with her.
This is the end of the thread.
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