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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by finelinebob on August 20, 2006, at 22:43:55
[Disclaimer: I consider myself a Quaker. This may belong in Faith, but for many Quakers we pursue politics with religious fervor ;^)]
Edmund Burke is quoted as having said:
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."I think he had no idea what "doing nothing" means. That quote is tossed in the face of pacifists and anti-war protestors as "just"ification for war, particularly our latest wars. Another quote the hawks like to toss at the doves is the "wimpiness" of the "turn the other cheek" doctrine. The full quote, from the Sermon on the Mount, is "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."
Most people are right handed. For another to strike you on the right cheek, they would have to back-hand slap you. In that day, such an action was meant to demean someone, to place them in a lower class of humanity than the aggressor. "Turning the other cheek" gave the aggressor 3 choices. A left-handed backslap, which carried grave implications for the aggressor's character; a right-handed open slap -- a challenge; or a right-handed punch, which forced the aggressor to accept you as an equal.
As such, turning the other cheek is a non-violent means of demanding respect or forcing the aggressor to back down.
As for doing nothing: Gandhi knew the value of actively doing nothing. So does the Dalai Lama. Gandhi succeeded with nowhere near the resources the US, NATO, and the sum of nations allied against Iraq have.
Perhaps Edmund Burke should have said:
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people do evil's bidding."So, am I just painting a (thorny) rosy picture of pacifism here, or do you think there were means of actively doing nothing that could have succeeded where turning to state-sanctioned murder has not?
Posted by AuntieMel on August 21, 2006, at 15:40:26
In reply to Doing nothing, posted by finelinebob on August 20, 2006, at 22:43:55
Nothing is ever so simple, is it?
Or maybe it is, but we need another Ghandi to show it to us.
I just keep remembering the quote "we will have peace whey they love their children more than they hate us"
Posted by laima on August 22, 2006, at 16:08:34
In reply to Doing nothing, posted by finelinebob on August 20, 2006, at 22:43:55
Interesting thoughts, you guys.
I myself have often wondered/thought about over the last few years about how often we humans form strong and passionate positions, meaning very well, when in reality we don't ever really know the whole story, having learned our "facts" through a media filter, whether that be "mainstream" media or one with professed and overt bias. There are editors at work, there are word choices with subtle tinges of emotions, points of view...passing as "fact". I guess what I'm saying is, without living through something firsthand- we are getting our info secondhand usually, and we all know that game of "telephone" from childhood... I think human nature likes the stories and answers to be "neat". For example, it was fascinating to me how after Sept 11 2001 everyone I knew was at first stunned and confused, but then quickly aligned themselves into positions and convictions according to their previous leanings. Few who I knew altered their world views or opinions one way or another, despite of the profundity of what happened.
Not sure what to make of all this, or how to be a truely responsable citizen of the world in light of this. A philosophy of "doing nothing" kindly (and responding compassionately) seems intriguing.
Posted by AuntieMel on August 22, 2006, at 18:21:29
In reply to Re: Doing nothing, posted by laima on August 22, 2006, at 16:08:34
Ah, but even when we live through something first hand, we still have only what we can see with our limited vision.
The best we can do is actively seek out varied sources for our information and form our own opinions.
But that's a lot of work.
I do like the idea of strategic nothingness, though. But where do you start?
Posted by laima on August 22, 2006, at 18:43:20
In reply to Re: Doing nothing » laima, posted by AuntieMel on August 22, 2006, at 18:21:29
So complicated, I know! It's a "million dollar question"!
You bring up a good point- even if we live through a dramatic event, we remember and explain it from our own viewpoint, with conviction. I agree it's best to seek out varied sources of info, as well as to consider or to "try on" varying points of view, as an excercise in open-mindedness if nothing else-but still worry that it's often still based on a collection of other people's opinions and biases- and if I make a full time job of reading every available news source, what does that do to my own mental health, or energy for any hope of true wisdom or compassion? Or what if getting overwhelmed by the politics of far away news burdens me to a point that I become unresponsive to people in my own vicinity, or divide them up into good/bad? I don't want to end up bitter or dogmatic either...I'm just not sure, but am so curious about views on the topic. I'd love some easy infallible answers. Where IS the Dali Lama when he's needed on the forum? :) I don't know what else I could ever say about this topic- I think you summed it up well. And no easy answers.
> Ah, but even when we live through something first hand, we still have only what we can see with our limited vision.
>
> The best we can do is actively seek out varied sources for our information and form our own opinions.
>
> But that's a lot of work.
>
> I do like the idea of strategic nothingness, though. But where do you start?
Posted by finelinebob on August 22, 2006, at 20:41:43
In reply to Re: Doing nothing » laima, posted by AuntieMel on August 22, 2006, at 18:21:29
> I do like the idea of strategic nothingness, though. But where do you start?
Think globally, act locally.
You start with yourself.
If you aren't convinced that non-violence is the only path to peace, then how can you convince anyone else, or have any conviction in the idea yourself? Once you've convinced yourself, then move on to one other person.
I was just reading how "everyone" wants peace in the world. I doubt that, but I think there's enough people who want peace to make the rest fall in line. The main problem is that nearly no one is willing to take the first step. Since there are people unwilling to live in peace, taking the "first step" means inevitably facing loss and suffering. Taking the "second step" would mean not retaliating, not seeking vengeance. There are non-violent ways to resist ... but can you limit yourself to them in the face of repeated loss and suffering?
To be perfectly honest, I doubt that I could. Maybe a few steps....
Posted by laima on August 22, 2006, at 20:47:50
In reply to Re: Doing nothing » AuntieMel, posted by finelinebob on August 22, 2006, at 20:41:43
>Since there are people unwilling to live in peace, taking the "first step" means inevitably facing loss and suffering. Taking the "second step" would mean not retaliating, not seeking vengeance.
This makes a lot of sense, but seems frustratingly hard to put into practice. A lot of strength and "compromise"...
Posted by finelinebob on August 22, 2006, at 23:43:03
In reply to Re: Doing nothing » finelinebob, posted by laima on August 22, 2006, at 20:47:50
> >Since there are people unwilling to live in peace, taking the "first step" means inevitably facing loss and suffering. Taking the "second step" would mean not retaliating, not seeking vengeance.
>
> This makes a lot of sense, but seems frustratingly hard to put into practice. A lot of strength and "compromise"...I can't remember the film "Gandhi" that well, but I remember this one scene where he was leading some protest march -- I can't remember if they were trying to get into some compound or just down a road, past an intersection. What I do remember was something like all his followers lined up in ranks of four being opposed by British troops with their Indian counterparts in front (of course) carrying long bamboo canes. Gandhi's people kept slowly walking towards the guards. The Indian guards would knock the front rank out of the way, beating them over the head with these poles. As the people in the front rank fell off the side of the road and were escorted by companions away for treatment of their wounds, the next rank would continue and force the Indian guards to keep hitting more and more people.
I can't remember the exact outcome ... much of anything! ... but I recall how dehumanizing it seemed to me to be one of the guards
Then again, if the only way violent people are going to stop killing one another on this planet is to fall back on "The enemy of my enemy is my friend", Us vs Them sort of thing ... maybe what we need is a good alien invasion.
Posted by laima on August 23, 2006, at 7:32:53
In reply to Re: Doing nothing, posted by finelinebob on August 22, 2006, at 23:43:03
> Then again, if the only way violent people are going to stop killing one another on this planet is to fall back on "The enemy of my enemy is my friend", Us vs Them sort of thing ... maybe what we need is a good alien invasion.
I actually hope that (invasion) doesn't happen to us or to anyone else... There has got to be another way-
Posted by laima on August 23, 2006, at 22:55:29
In reply to Re: Doing nothing » laima, posted by AuntieMel on August 22, 2006, at 18:21:29
Regarding news sources--whoa- a guest on Mr. Cobert's show just mentioned that there are first-hand "home" videos made by soldiers in Iraq on youtube. I might look tomorrow to see how the images and content compare to the conventional sources-they are talking about just what we are in this part of the thread.That Cobert!
> Ah, but even when we live through something first hand, we still have only what we can see with our limited vision.
>
> The best we can do is actively seek out varied sources for our information and form our own opinions.
>
> But that's a lot of work.
>
> I do like the idea of strategic nothingness, though. But where do you start?
Posted by Jost on August 23, 2006, at 22:59:24
In reply to Re: Doing nothing » AuntieMel, posted by laima on August 23, 2006, at 22:55:29
Did he (or his guest) say what the search words on youtube are?
I've missed the Daily Show and Colbert Report this week, cause I'm on vacation.
Jost
Posted by laima on August 23, 2006, at 23:16:57
In reply to Re: Doing nothing » laima, posted by Jost on August 23, 2006, at 22:59:24
No, he didn't! Or actually I might have missed it, because I was busy fixin' up a snack when they said it. But I imagine we could figure it out. I'm awfully curious as to what these guys would have chosen to have filmed and posted...> Did he (or his guest) say what the search words on youtube are?
>
> I've missed the Daily Show and Colbert Report this week, cause I'm on vacation.
>
> Jost
Posted by laima on August 25, 2006, at 1:13:20
In reply to Re: Doing nothing, posted by laima on August 22, 2006, at 16:08:34
Oh! Just discovered youtube, a most amazing website. And here is Mr. Colbert on "Truth" in the news:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZy9OhEcLLc&mode=related&search=
Posted by laima on August 25, 2006, at 1:27:22
In reply to Re: Doing nothing » laima, posted by laima on August 25, 2006, at 1:13:20
...and the perils of being uninformed, and why we have bias in the news in the first place:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr6HRl7DZ_w&mode=related&search=
Posted by laima on August 25, 2006, at 2:33:48
In reply to Re: Doing nothing » laima, posted by laima on August 25, 2006, at 1:27:22
Oh dear. I got so excited over discovering youtube. (Slow to get wind of some things, like most popular websites on earth, for example.)I hope the content wasn't inappropriate to share here- I apologize if that is the case. I was thinking it's "light"- I hope I am correct and no one takes any offense. ooops.
Posted by AuntieMel on August 25, 2006, at 10:18:24
In reply to Re: Doing nothing » AuntieMel, posted by finelinebob on August 22, 2006, at 20:41:43
I don't think that there isn't anyone willing to make the first step. I think people are afraid to make the first step.
History is full of cases where people didn't fight back and regretted it.
I just think we are using our super-power status incorrectly. I would like to see us use it to protect the underdogs of the world, especially those in need of protection from their own governments.
It ticks me off - being the only remaining super-power we could do so much good.
Posted by laima on August 25, 2006, at 10:40:36
In reply to Re: Doing nothing, posted by AuntieMel on August 25, 2006, at 10:18:24
>> It ticks me off - being the only remaining super-power we could do so much good.
Super power...I know what you mean, we leave so much of our "doing good" (on massive global scale, donating relief money, raising awareness, etc) to rock stars and computer millionaires-very appreciated of course, but-
> I don't think that there isn't anyone willing to make the first step. I think people are afraid to make the first step.
>
> History is full of cases where people didn't fight back and regretted it.
>
> I just think we are using our super-power status incorrectly. I would like to see us use it to protect the underdogs of the world, especially those in need of protection from their own governments.
>
> It ticks me off - being the only remaining super-power we could do so much good.
Posted by finelinebob on August 26, 2006, at 21:51:36
In reply to Re: Doing nothing » laima, posted by laima on August 25, 2006, at 2:33:48
> Oh dear. I got so excited over discovering youtube. (Slow to get wind of some things, like most popular websites on earth, for example.)
What's really cool is when your company is featured on one of the most important TV shows of our times which then gets upload to one of the most popular websites on earth (even thought in our niche we kinda are the most popular website on earth ... in our niche)
Posted by laima on August 26, 2006, at 23:19:40
In reply to Re: Doing nothing, posted by finelinebob on August 26, 2006, at 21:51:36
Hey-Do you work for youtube, my latest obsession? Or am I missing something? OR ARE YOU REALLY MR COBERT??!!
> > Oh dear. I got so excited over discovering youtube. (Slow to get wind of some things, like most popular websites on earth, for example.)
>
> What's really cool is when your company is featured on one of the most important TV shows of our times which then gets upload to one of the most popular websites on earth (even thought in our niche we kinda are the most popular website on earth ... in our niche)
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VPz2VJluoM
Posted by finelinebob on August 27, 2006, at 1:14:09
In reply to Re: Doing nothing » finelinebob, posted by laima on August 26, 2006, at 23:19:40
> Do you work for youtube, my latest obsession? Or am I missing something? OR ARE YOU REALLY MR COBERT??!!
You're missing something.
[pssst ... I work for Beliefnet....]
Posted by laima on August 27, 2006, at 8:37:10
In reply to Re: Doing nothing, posted by finelinebob on August 27, 2006, at 1:14:09
Oh-well I'm going to need to look-up Beliefnet!
(I've heard of the organization, but don't know anything about it.)Thanks,
Laima
:)
> > Do you work for youtube, my latest obsession? Or am I missing something? OR ARE YOU REALLY MR COBERT??!!
>
> You're missing something.
>
>
>
>
>
> [pssst ... I work for Beliefnet....]
This is the end of the thread.
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