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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by dmlvt on September 12, 2006, at 14:48:20
As an athlete, someone who suffers from depression and anxiety, someone who works in healthcare, and someone who is overweight, I read a lot about these topics. (I'm not a doctor, but rather a clinical number cruncher for doctors).
So, I'm curious what people think would be the ultimate diet if curing depression was the primary goal. I doubt that it would be inconsistent with my athletic goals or contrary to my desire to lose weight.
Here are the basic things I'm doing right now. These aren't necessarily things I do all the time, but for the past three weeks, I've been very strict in what follows:
No alcohol
Very limited sugar intake (in coffee and that's it)
No dairy except for some milk or half and half in bad coffee.
(Perhaps if I ditched coffee, I could get rid of sugar and dairy completely)
No flour at all, even whole wheat flour.
No eggs
No cheese or really any dairy fat other than in coffee.
No soda, no artificial sweeteners
Vitamins and fish oil supplements. I use a number of products from a company that specializes in supplements for endurance athletes.
No meat from mammals
Some organic poultry
Some cold-water, wild fish
No farm-raised fish
Nothing fried
Nothing from a box
No trans fatsA typical day might look like this:
Coffee when I get up
4 servings of fruit after my morning workout
Salad for lunch with a variety of veggies, flax seeds, beans, walnuts, and a homemade dressing that includes olive oil and vinegar
Dinner might be a stir-fry with tofu with brown rice, or maybe a black bean/brown rice dish with salsa and guacomole. Last night was a chicken breast, salad, and roasted zucchini. The night before was grilled salmon, corn on the cob (no salt, no butter), salad, chard, and broccoli.Overall, lots of fruits and veggies, brown rice, beans, tofu and lean meats for protein, low salt, etc. I'm not fanatically anti-fat and I eat avocadoes, olive oil and nuts.
If you read books like "Eat to Live" by Joel Fuhrman or follow the McDougall "plan", these docs will tell you that we can cure depression and many psychiatric disorders through diet.
Is it a dream? What should we eat if we want to optimize our mental health?
Just something I've been thinking about a lot recently, wondering if I can get rid of these drugs that overwhelm me at times.
dml
Posted by notfred on September 12, 2006, at 22:30:46
In reply to What would the perfect anti-depression diet be?, posted by dmlvt on September 12, 2006, at 14:48:20
>
> So, I'm curious what people think would be the ultimate diet if curing depression was the primary goal.It is hard to talk about a cure when the causes
and processes for depression are not understood well.
Posted by dmlvt on September 13, 2006, at 7:15:06
In reply to Re: What would the perfect anti-depression diet be, posted by notfred on September 12, 2006, at 22:30:46
The use of "cure" was a bad word choice on my part. How about if our goal was to take what we know or what we think we might know and apply that to diet to reduce or minimize depression.
Omega-3 is an area where there are hypotheses out there, and the ratio of omega-6 fatty acids to omega-3 fatty acids has changed dramatically in our modern diet.
There is also a lot of co-morbidity with diabetes and cardio-vascular disease. Yes, cause and effect are not necessarily clear, but if our diets were optimized to avoid type 2 diabetes and CVD, would that help to decrease depression?
What about environmental toxins?
There are people, doctors included, who claim that depression can be cured or greatly reduced through dietary intervention. I'm sure some of them are simply out to make a buck by selling a book or supplements or both, but there are many common themes in their work related to diet. B-vitamins stand out, for example.
There is also the entire topic of supplements.
So, I was simply curious what thoughts people had on the topic or what personal experiences they might have had.
dml
Posted by Declan on September 13, 2006, at 13:45:50
In reply to Re: What would the perfect anti-depression diet be » notfred, posted by dmlvt on September 13, 2006, at 7:15:06
I've had some success with diet and depression. Maintaining enough protein, the omega 3 balance, no junk carbs, antioxidants, no dairy, no wheat, no processed food, has been definately helpful. My IgE is even coming down and my glucose metabolism seems to be improving.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on September 21, 2006, at 9:17:26
In reply to What would the perfect anti-depression diet be?, posted by dmlvt on September 12, 2006, at 14:48:20
Hi, its an interesting area....I posted this article a while back:
'Diet change cured me of depression'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4610998.stmI think your diet plan sounds rather good. Although I would perhaps ditch the coffee. I know, its not easy, but I don't drink it anymore (or other caffine products) and I notice the difference. Coffee for me tends to give me a quick buzz, but then I go down again and end up worse than if I hadn't drunk the coffee at all. Bizarrely I tend to have more energy off coffee than on it for some reason. And it always makes my hungry after 20mintues and yeah I do better off the stuff!
I think sugar control is quite important too.
Kind regards
MEri-Tuuli
Posted by dmlvt on September 21, 2006, at 12:51:33
In reply to Re: What would the perfect anti-depression diet be, posted by Meri-Tuuli on September 21, 2006, at 9:17:26
> 'Diet change cured me of depression'
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4610998.stmThanks for the link. I had found that article myself and read it within the past week. But, as an experiment of one, it provides hope but certainly not conclusive evidence.
> Although I would perhaps ditch the coffee. I
I am working on that. Previously, I would drink two cups of coffee at home and then one more at work. The coffee at work sucks, so I was putting extra sugar and some half-and-half into it. I've now cut out the cup at work, and at home, I'm mixing decaf and regular 50/50. So, I'm at about 1/3 of the caffeine of a month ago, and I'll see if I can keep dropping it.> I think sugar control is quite important too.
I've found that after a month without wheat products, including flour, and a month with very limited sugar, that my cravings for sweets have dropped considerably.But, think about how many foods are simply off limits if you take sugar and wheat out of your diet. It's amazing how few foods I can eat.
My weight has dropped about 8 pounds in a month though.
I have reduced my medicine intakes as well. Within a month or so, I may be completely off of ADs, although Ativan and Ritalin may stick around a bit longer.
If I can drop all of the meds and remain in a good mental state, I'll do it. If not, it will have been an interesting experiment.
I must admit that I'd rather live a life without sugar and wheat and caffeine and alcohol than a life where I'm constantly worried about what medications are doing to my body (liver) and brain and my ability to think clearly. Well, at least today I believe that. After a few more weeks or months without ice cream or beer, I might be singing a different tune.
dml
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on September 22, 2006, at 11:54:14
In reply to Re: What would the perfect anti-depression diet be » Meri-Tuuli, posted by dmlvt on September 21, 2006, at 12:51:33
But to add hope to your 'experiment' its amazing what you can get used to. I don't drink coffee now, but before I'd usually have 2-3 cups a day and I *enjoyed* drinking coffee.
I have also tried being vegan and things. Its okay once you suss out the shops that stock your products, try a few, find the ones that you like, and then just go with it.
I suppose eating out might be more tricky. Do you live in the states? I imagine that being quite hard too, I get the impression there's not that much choice over there although I suppose that depends on where you live! And they have a more 'eating out' culture than over here.
But the thing is, if you really crave something its best to give in and have alittle of the something you crave...otherwise your plan will become too rigid and you'll end up blowing it. So I don't see why you couldn't have maybe a glass of red wine once in a while for example.
I generally avoid sweet things now, but once a week I treat myself to a danish pastry (my weakness!) just so I don't feel deprived the rest of the week and then think 'f*** it' and go completely off the rails....
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by dmlvt on September 27, 2006, at 12:26:49
In reply to Re: What would the perfect anti-depression diet be, posted by Meri-Tuuli on September 22, 2006, at 11:54:14
I'm not sure if I can go to no coffee or not, but I never thought I'd be happy with no alcohol either, and I'm doing just fine there.
> I suppose eating out might be more tricky. Do
>you live in the states? I imagine that being
>quite hard too, I get the impression there's
>not that much choice over there although I
>suppose that depends on where you live! AndI do live in the states, but we really do have amazing choices if you know where to go. I use a few co-op markets that specialize in organic products, humanely raised and chemical free meats, plus a wide variety of ingredients from around the world. Plus, I've cooked professionally in high end restaurants in the past and I love to cook, so I take care of most things myself. Eating out is difficult. There aren't many restaurants where you can find a meal devoid of sugar, wheat, trans fats, dairy and eggs, but there are some. In a worst case scenario, I can simply get a large salad with a veggie burger at most places. For the most part, I tend to go to ethnic restaurants rather than American chains. It's much easier to get a healthy meal at a Chinese or Mexican or Indian restaurant than at the big US restaurant chains, but even at those places, you need to pay attention.
> But the thing is, if you really crave
>something its best to give in and have alittle
>of the something you crave...otherwise your
>plan will become too rigid and you'll end up
>blowing it. So I don't see why you couldn't
>have maybe a glass of red wine once in a while
>for example.Long term, that is my plan. I intend to eventually bring some things back into my diet, especially Reggiano Parmesan cheese, perhaps some red wine, sone eggs, etc. For now, I'm just trying to see what happens with my brain if I take this to an extreme.
So far, I've cut out one of four meds, and decreased the dosage on two others. Plus, I've lost 10 pounds in 5 weeks. I'm feeling very good overall these days.
dml
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on October 6, 2006, at 6:25:33
In reply to Re: What would the perfect anti-depression diet be » Meri-Tuuli, posted by dmlvt on September 27, 2006, at 12:26:49
hey!
Sorry i haven't gotten back sooner, i tend to forget i have responded to treads....
anyway, your plan sounds pretty good. i see what you're saying re: the food thing, eating out espically. I'm living in Finland now, and I am continually amazed at how healthy normal food is here. For instance, (I'm at grad school) we have subsidised (by the state) canteens, and today i had some white fish (well its called 'Nile Perch'here) boiled potatoes, carrots, salad and rye bread and it came to about 3 bucks. Amazing!
Anyway. yes i see what you're saying re: the craving thing. A sort of period 'cold turkey' to get the things out of your system. Thats really good, i've read that when you have food intolerances (note: different than allergies) you can gradually introduce the foods after a few months.
Good plan. I, personally, could never stick to such a regime - my personal ideal would be to be a tee-total vegan - but its just too hard for me. Particulary here in Finland were alternative stores are more hard to come by. But I reallly admire you for trying it. Let me know how it goes, and whether it makes any difference!!!!
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by dmlvt on October 6, 2006, at 7:38:46
In reply to Re: What would the perfect anti-depression diet be, posted by Meri-Tuuli on October 6, 2006, at 6:25:33
It's been about six weeks now since I made the dramatic changes to my diet. I've never had any problems with the exercise side of things, being a devoted long distance runner.
In July of this year, I was taking the following meds:
Ritalin - 20mg
Cymbalta - 40 mg
Wellbutrin - 150 mg (recently down from 300)
Ativan - 2-3 mg per dayI was also still drinking alcohol at times, self-medicating, I assume.
Within three weeks of changing my diet and eliminating all alcohol, I had dropped the Wellbutrin and cut the Cymbalta to 20 mg. Over a period of 10 days or so, starting about 3 weeks ago, all of my anxiety seemed to fade away and I was able to go without any Ativan for the first time in a long time.
The lifting of the anxiety gave me the opportunity to go the next step. A week ago, I dropped the rest of the Cymbalta. I have to say that going cold turkey from 20mg to zero on this drug hasn't been particularly fun. I had read horror stories about withdrawal from it, and while I wouldn't say that I'm seeing severe effects, there are some there. I have felt really fuzzy at times, sort of disconnected from what is going on. I've had some minor anxiety issues as well, but I think it's been related to the discomfort of the Cymalta withdrawal.
I've found that adding some extra Ritalin has helped with the "disconnectedness" and a little bit of Ativan has helped as well.
So, presently, I'm taking about 1 mg of Ativan and 40mg of Ritalin daily. Hopefully, within another week or two, I'll drop those back down to 0 and 20mg.
I have had no depressive symptoms at all. And, while I thought that the lower dose of Cymbalta or at least the augmentation with Wellbutrin had eliminated any sexual side effects, I have discovered that there were still some side effects occurring. It's been nice to notice the changes as those side effects have disappeared.
I've lost 12 pounds since starting this process. My blood pressure has also dropped substantially from 135/85 to 115/75.
So, overall, my brain is much better and my physical health seems much better. I still have to survive the rest of the Cymalta withdrawal and pay attention for the return of any depressive symptoms.
But so far, as an experiment of one, I'm really pleased.
I have an annual physical exam scheduled for January, and I'm hoping to shock my doctor by telling him that I'm med-free, feeling fine, and then have him look at lab results and see a changed person.
Of course, if I have depression or anxiety issues, I will work with my pdoc and go back to using the meds. But so far, I think the dietary changes I've made have made a huge difference, or they've at least created a significant placebo effect.
dml
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