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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Chris O on July 18, 2008, at 14:11:14
Anyone listen to the lovely and ever-so-irrational Coast to Coast AM with George "I Never Heard an Apocalyptic Theory I Didn't Love" Noory and Art "I Watched Too Much Star Trek" Bell? Well, two nights ago, they had on a lovely guest. She is a "writer" who specializes in, er, local government corruption scandals, occasional movie scripts (some for Don Johnson, who "pays well and fast"), and now, uh, the "afterlife." Yeah, so, anyway, Ms. Morang went on to opine on the "eleven dimensions" and the "three Hells" and the "seventh Heaven" and the "wisdom" of her "twenty-five years of research." So, uh, she said about eighteen million things that offended me. But anyway, I just want to cite a few. This is coming from my skeptical agnostic perspective, not from any conventional fundamentalist/orthodox religious belief system.
To start, Ms. Morang said that all who have committed suicide, all who are alcoholics, all who are drug addicts, all who engage in "sexual perversion" (whatever that is), can enjoy a stay in Hell. Yes, nothing like being sent to Hell because you are unhappy and can't "will" yourself out of it. Makes perfect sense, huh? In fact, according to her, most people can expect to go to Hell, even "If you are 'good'(?)." This thoughtful conclusion is based on nothing less than Ms. Morang's twenty-five years of "research" (Oh, my! Impressive! Applause!) into NDEs, psychic phenomena, and other scientifically dubious fields. Hey, but no worries, everyone. Hell isn't permanent. It's just a place we go to burn off all our bad karma. Yeah, it hurts ("like hell," ha-ha, according to Ms. Morang), but it's kind of like a steam bath for the soul, according to Ms. Morang. And, if you "think happy thoughts" upon dying, you have less of a chance of going to Hell. Of course, this does not bode well for me, as I need to take medication to think "happy thoughts." Oh, and I guess if I die painfully, that might be a problem too. Don't think I'll be thinking happy thoughts then. So, basically, according to afterlife expert Dianne Morang, who wrote the bizarrely titled e-book "How the Hell to Get the Hell Out of Hell" (Oh, tee-hee, isn't that funny?), and who uses modern utilitarian philosophy to synthesize multiple ancient belief systems that all engage in either-or/black-white thinking and have nothing to do with one another, I am going to Hell. And, you know what else? According to Dianne Morang, if you have schizophrenia, you are likely just having contact with other dimensions. No, it's not a brain disease. It's a spiritual gift. Yea! Oh, and your pets can see ghosts. So, when Fido's barking at the wind, it's actually Uncle Harry standing there. Isn't Coast to Coast AM lovely? Please, someone tell me you listened to this show last night and cursed the radio like me!!!!
Posted by Sigismund on July 18, 2008, at 21:38:16
In reply to Psychic Dianne Morang: We all go to Hell!, posted by Chris O on July 18, 2008, at 14:11:14
Maybe it's just as well she didn't attempt a description of heaven.
I would expect some version of suburbia.
The hell sounds like the usual thing.
Really, humans are ridiculous.
Posted by Chris O on July 19, 2008, at 2:00:47
In reply to Re: Psychic Dianne Morang: We all go to Hell! » Chris O, posted by Sigismund on July 18, 2008, at 21:38:16
Sometimes, I think we are one chromosome away from being dirt. I'm serious. Our egos endlessly guide us into these irrational patterns from which we never escape. I mean, what else can we do in the end, right? But it seems so meaningless, so Sisyphusian. We just endlessly keep making up stories to explain things. It never ends. It's tiring. My mind and spirt is weary from all this BS. Ugh.
The thing that really got me with Ms. Morang was that: First, she used a modern world view to justify and take seriously ancient superstitious beliefs. She did so without a hint of cognitive dissonance. The other thing that got to me was that...Ms. Morang is coming from what I would label a philosophically liberal position in the western sense. It's the whole Ram Dass Be Here Now combination of Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, and the beliefs of the ancients--Roseau-influenced Romanticism, if you will--but it's done in a way to justify (kind of) a conservative ancient world view. Huh? So, you take a compassionate, a tolerant view of history--the one we have developed in the West over the past two hundred years. However, you use that to elevate the unfounded irrational beliefs of the ancients to some superior level? Well, that makes perfects sense, doesn't it? Granted, Ms. Morang wasn't "preaching," she was just "reporting" (She made a point to remind us of this fact several times.) However, she did seem to believe that some people with schizophrenia are contacting other dimensions, and not that they were suffering from mental illness. Now, I am open to that possibility, as I am open to any possibility, within the bounds of reason that my weary stressed out brain cells can accept. But I think it's irresponsible to suggest that someone with such a painful debilitating illness is...should not get treatment because their psychosis may be a special gift from God. Those are the kind of delusions I hold when I am in my most mentally ill state. I know that kind of thinking (the schizophrenia as spiritual gift) was in vogue in some liberal psychological circles in the 1960s. But isn't it irresponsible for someone with no mental health qualifications to babble on like this on a radio show with on audience of millions?
Posted by Sigismund on July 19, 2008, at 15:33:58
In reply to Re: Psychic Dianne Morang: We all go to Hell! » Sigismund, posted by Chris O on July 19, 2008, at 2:00:47
I agree with you, except for
>So, you take a compassionate, a tolerant view of history--the one we have developed in the West over the past two hundred years.
I think we in the west have remarkable powers of abstraction, certainly, and perhaps the is a connection between the abstraction and the horrors of the C20, which more or less come down to the French Revolution, colonialism, WWI, WWII, The Russian Revolution and aftermath, Nazi Germmany. These were essentially problems within the west.
Posted by Chris O on July 19, 2008, at 17:01:00
In reply to Re: Psychic Dianne Morang: We all go to Hell! » Chris O, posted by Sigismund on July 19, 2008, at 15:33:58
I think I used the wrong adjectives to describe what I was getting it with Ms. Morang. Many people in the ancient world, including the ancient Jews and Christians, whom Ms. Morang "cites" as "proof" of her "research," had a regressive view of history. They believed everything was running down, getting worse, and doomed to end in some Apocalypse because people were getting more and more "sinful." Since the Renaissance and Enlightenment, we in the West have taken a more progressive, a more optimistic view of history. Moreover, while many (most? all?) in the ancient world had a very tribal, ethnocentric view of their "gods" thus negating any sense of tolerance for the other, we in the modern western world exercise a more tolerant, all-encompassing view of religious belief. We basically pick and choose based on our own personal experience and however we define rationality for ourselves. Thus, it seems that Ms. Morang is using a progressive view of history to validate a regressive view of history, one which, paradoxically, does not accept or tolerate the progressive view she uses. It's like a Japanese man I once read about who remarked, "If people want to choose fascism, isn't that their right?" It's a paradox that many fundamentalist/orthodox religious believers ignore today, and it's a paradox that many people who are just encountering modernism for the first time do not fully comprehend. It's like...they want to choose that which oppresses them. And even though Ms. Morang was not espousing anything close to fundamentalist religious belief, she involves herself intellectually in the same paradox that those individuals do. It's really quite frightening and does not bode well for our survival considering how many nuclear weapons now exist. Sorry for the long babbling.
Posted by Sigismund on July 19, 2008, at 19:40:56
In reply to Re: Psychic Dianne Morang: We all go to Hell! » Sigismund, posted by Chris O on July 19, 2008, at 17:01:00
If you like this sort of stuff, there are two books that have influenced me that may interest you.
They are both great, and available in libraries.They are "Black Mass"
and
"Straw Dogs"
both by John Gray
Posted by Chris O on July 20, 2008, at 1:40:14
In reply to Re: Psychic Dianne Morang: We all go to Hell!, posted by Sigismund on July 19, 2008, at 19:40:56
Thanks for the book suggestions. Those books have been on my "to read" list for a bit.
I've been reading a pretty wide range books critical of Christian Biblical literalism over the past couple years including Jonathan Kirsch's God Against the Gods and A History of the End of the World; Mark Smith's Memoirs of God; James Kugel's How to Read the Bible; most of the stuff by Bart Ehrman and Elaine Pagels; Bruce Malina's Social Science Commentaries on the Gospels and Pauline Epistles; and great book that traces the history of Christian fundamentalism in America, George Marsden's Fundamentalism and American Culture. I'll have to delve into the Gray books when I get through the other pile of stuff I have in front of me.
Thanks for the dialogue. I won't continue to bug you with more posts after this one.
Chris
Posted by Sigismund on July 20, 2008, at 3:23:09
In reply to Thanks. Both books are on my 'to read' list » Sigismund, posted by Chris O on July 20, 2008, at 1:40:14
> I won't continue to bug you with more posts after this one.
You can bug me as much as you like, or at least a little bit.
Posted by Lou PIlder on July 21, 2008, at 8:44:34
In reply to Re: Psychic Dianne Morang: We all go to Hell! » Sigismund, posted by Chris O on July 19, 2008, at 2:00:47
> Sometimes, I think we are one chromosome away from being dirt. I'm serious. Our egos endlessly guide us into these irrational patterns from which we never escape. I mean, what else can we do in the end, right? But it seems so meaningless, so Sisyphusian. We just endlessly keep making up stories to explain things. It never ends. It's tiring. My mind and spirt is weary from all this BS. Ugh.
>
> The thing that really got me with Ms. Morang was that: First, she used a modern world view to justify and take seriously ancient superstitious beliefs. She did so without a hint of cognitive dissonance. The other thing that got to me was that...Ms. Morang is coming from what I would label a philosophically liberal position in the western sense. It's the whole Ram Dass Be Here Now combination of Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, and the beliefs of the ancients--Roseau-influenced Romanticism, if you will--but it's done in a way to justify (kind of) a conservative ancient world view. Huh? So, you take a compassionate, a tolerant view of history--the one we have developed in the West over the past two hundred years. However, you use that to elevate the unfounded irrational beliefs of the ancients to some superior level? Well, that makes perfects sense, doesn't it? Granted, Ms. Morang wasn't "preaching," she was just "reporting" (She made a point to remind us of this fact several times.) However, she did seem to believe that some people with schizophrenia are contacting other dimensions, and not that they were suffering from mental illness. Now, I am open to that possibility, as I am open to any possibility, within the bounds of reason that my weary stressed out brain cells can accept. But I think it's irresponsible to suggest that someone with such a painful debilitating illness is...should not get treatment because their psychosis may be a special gift from God. Those are the kind of delusions I hold when I am in my most mentally ill state. I know that kind of thinking (the schizophrenia as spiritual gift) was in vogue in some liberal psychological circles in the 1960s. But isn't it irresponsible for someone with no mental health qualifications to babble on like this on a radio show with on audience of millions?Chris O,
You wrote,[...the XXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXX beliefs of the ancients...].
I am unsure as to the identification of those in your statement here and as to what authority that you may be using to designate those ancient religions as being XXXXXXXXX and/or XXXXXXXXXX.
If you could clarify the following , then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. What are the criteris that you use to classify an ancient religion as being XXXXXXXXX and/or XXXXXXXXXX?
B. What religions could be in your opinion exempt from those? If so, why are they exempt?
Lou
Posted by Deputy Dinah on July 21, 2008, at 10:12:14
In reply to Re: Psychic Dianne Morang: We all go to Hell! » Sigismund, posted by Chris O on July 19, 2008, at 2:00:47
> However, you use that to elevate the unfounded irrational beliefs of the ancients to some superior level?
> Many people in the ancient world, including the ancient Jews and Christians, whom Ms. Morang "cites" as "proof" of her "research," had a regressive view of history.
The faith board was designed to be supportive of religious faith.
Also, on all boards Dr. Bob asks that we follow the guidelines he establishes about respecting the views of others, even if you believe they are incorrect.
Please be sensitive to posters who are followers of ancient faiths.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Chris O on July 21, 2008, at 13:36:16
In reply to Please Be Sensitive » Chris O, posted by Deputy Dinah on July 21, 2008, at 10:12:14
Sorry, Dinah! I supposed I can be passionate in my beliefs sometimes. Did not mean to hurt anyone's feelings.
Posted by Chris O on July 21, 2008, at 13:44:26
In reply to Lou's request rclarification-uhnfow-earat? » Chris O, posted by Lou PIlder on July 21, 2008, at 8:44:34
Lou:
My understanding is that many ancient Jewish sects around the time of 1st century Judea believed the world was running down (due to sin) and that there was an Apocalypse on the horizon. There was also a belief that a Messiah was coming to save them from their dire situation with respect to Rome. I think this is common knowledge in both academic and theological circles.
In terms of the modern western world, we seem to have moved away from that (anti-progressive) belief system sometime around the Renaissance and Enlightenment. In general, we have a more progressive view of history, thinking that we can improve things (make our lives longer, make Earth a better place to live). While elements of Apocalypticism remain in some segments of the population (increasingly so in the past two decades), the general philosophical belief that guides most westerners is quite different from that of the ancient Jews and Christians. Sorry, I'm not going to cite a long list of books to prove this belief. Again, I think it's pretty well agreed upon.
Good luck!
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on July 22, 2008, at 1:40:14
In reply to Re: Lou's request rclarification-uhnfow-earat? » Lou PIlder, posted by Chris O on July 21, 2008, at 13:44:26
>...that (anti-progressive) belief system
>...the general philosophical belief that guides most westerners is quite different from that of the ancient Jews and Christians.
>it's pretty well agreed upon.Please don't post anything that could lead others (such as Jews, Christians, or those whose beliefs include Apocalypticism) to feel put down, jump to conclusions about others, or overgeneralize.
As you were recently asked to be sensitive to the beliefs of others by Dinah, I need to caution you that repeated violations of the guidelines here may require us to block you from posting for a period of time. That is definitely something we - and I think you - would like to avoid!
The civility rules can be tricky to negotiate here sometimes, particularly on certain boards. I know it helps me to check my posts for any inadvertent negative characterizations of others (individuals or groups) for broad, sweeping statements or for phrasing where I am am assuming something about others. Along with looking over the civility rules, posters are always welcome to have Admin review a post before submitting it, if they are unsure whether it is civil/sensitive.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
10derHeart, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Chris O on July 22, 2008, at 13:41:20
In reply to Please be civil » Chris O, posted by Deputy 10derHeart on July 22, 2008, at 1:40:14
Deputy 10derHeart:
But didn't I already apologize two lines ago? And, I haven't even posted anything since that time. I'm confused why you are reminding me when I've already apologized and have not posted anything yet again.
Again, sorry if I offended you, or anyone else.
Chris
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on July 23, 2008, at 14:37:41
In reply to Deputy10derHeart, I understand. Thanks. » Deputy 10derHeart, posted by Chris O on July 22, 2008, at 13:41:20
Sometimes....depending on your personal habits in writing posts (e.g., some people use a word processor then cut and paste, some write directly into the posting window on Babble, etc.) it could be confusing to think back as to the sequence of events re: when you posted something. I know sometimes I'll write something, and never post it for hours - computer freezes up, I get called away, I forget (duh!), etc. I also recall one poster saying she "batched" posts when she was in the mood for writing, then got on her computer and physically posted them all one time a day. To each their own :-)
But, the only thing we can possibly go by, of course, is the automatic time stamp Babble puts on the post once you hit confirm.
> But didn't I already apologize two lines ago?
Dinah's PBS: July 21, 2008, at 10:12:14
Your apology: July 21, 2008, at 13:36:16
>And, I haven't even posted anything since that time.
Hmm....the time stamp on the post I quoted from is: July 21, 2008, at 13:44:26, which was a response to Lou Pilder *after* (albeit only 8 minutes) the first warning and your apology. And if you look, the wording I 'snipped' as not within the guidelines is only from that later post, not from anything Dinah had already noted from the first one.So that's the reason. I thought perhaps you didn't understand. When we post a request to follow the guidelines, then someone comes right back and posts with similar (or exactly the same) type of civility violations, we generally try to help by posting a second request and trying to explain better.
> Again, sorry if I offended you, or anyone else.
Thanks - we really appreciate your patience and courtesy. It's a learning process - for all of us, IMO :-)
-- 10derHeart, acting as Deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by rayww on July 29, 2008, at 22:39:15
In reply to Psychic Dianne Morang: We all go to Hell!, posted by Chris O on July 18, 2008, at 14:11:14
Please, can you identify hell on this chart?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_of_salvation
Posted by Chris O on July 30, 2008, at 16:47:18
In reply to Re: Psychic Dianne Morang: We all go to Hell!, posted by rayww on July 29, 2008, at 22:39:15
Um, would that be...outer darkness?
Posted by Sigismund on July 30, 2008, at 20:12:44
In reply to Re: Psychic Dianne Morang: We all go to Hell! » rayww, posted by Chris O on July 30, 2008, at 16:47:18
What's Sheol(sp?) about?
And Hades?
They were not Hell, I don't think.
Posted by rayww on July 30, 2008, at 23:21:36
In reply to Re: Psychic Dianne Morang: We all go to Hell! » rayww, posted by Chris O on July 30, 2008, at 16:47:18
> Um, would that be...outer darkness?
That would be a pretty good definition of hell. I wonder if light is reserved for glory, and if outer darkness means that place where there can be no glory. To have light in space is a privilege/a gift.
Upon searching for references to outer darkness in the scriptures, I found no reference to the thought that hell might be a literal place of outer darkness, that is, unless outer darkness means outer darkness. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=outer+darkness&do=Search
When I did a search on the word, "hell" the sort according to relevance revealed the following according to relevance:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=words&last=outer+darkness&help=&wo=checked&search=hell&do=Search&iw=scriptures&tx=checked&hw=checked&sw=checked&bw=1
which I thought was a better definition, meant to be understood through the spirit, if you know how to tune in with your spirit. I think it is somewhere in the right hemisphere of the brain, but I could be wrong about that, because it is both logical and linear, creative and imaginative.
Following more of the cross referencing, http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/9/10#10, the BofM is a great source of knowledge concerning life after death, and like no other book on the face of the earth, it contains a promise between you and God, which means you don't ever have to take my word for it. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moro/10/5#5
The final words in the Book of Mormon, of which I believe every word to be true.Anyone who studies the meaning of hell should include this as part of their study. If for no other reason, to raise question, because if it raises a question to which there is no answer, a person is more likely to ask God. And if a person questions God or the existence of God, what better way to find out?
Posted by rayww on July 30, 2008, at 23:47:49
In reply to Re: Psychic Dianne Morang: We all go to Hell!, posted by Sigismund on July 30, 2008, at 20:12:44
> What's Sheol(sp?) about?
>
> And Hades?
>
> They were not Hell, I don't think.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades
According to this article, "early Christians used the Greek word Hades to translate the Hebrew word Sheol".Both words, hades and sheol had reference to satan's kingdom, or hell.
Actually, I thought the Wikipedia article fit other definitions, which go way back in time. Time began with the right definitions, so it is good to pay attention to some old traditions. I weigh things like that to my scale, and find balance in a lot of it, or at least relevance.
Posted by Sigismund on July 31, 2008, at 23:32:43
In reply to Re: Psychic Dianne Morang: We all go to Hell! » Chris O, posted by rayww on July 30, 2008, at 23:21:36
>And if a person questions God or the existence of God, what better way to find out?
Job and Ecclesiastes do at least as much as that.
Abraham, one senses, wrestled with God.
Jesus said that the only sin that could not be forgiven was the sin against the Holy Spirit.
Some of the Psalms are pretty heavy.
Posted by rayww on August 2, 2008, at 12:10:27
In reply to Re: Psychic Dianne Morang: We all go to Hell!, posted by Sigismund on July 31, 2008, at 23:32:43
> Job and Ecclesiastes do at least as much as that.
> Abraham, one senses, wrestled with God.
> Jesus said that the only sin that could not be forgiven was the sin against the Holy Spirit.
> Some of the Psalms are pretty heavy.
>
>When God inspires scripture it transcends time. We can't tell whether He's referring to life here or in heaven. What if Gen 2:24 is one such, "they shall BE one flesh". Try reading the Bible with eternal eyes and you may see it differently.
Gen. 2: 24-they shall be one flesh.
Gen. 25: 8-Abraham . . . died . . . and was gathered to his people.
Gen. 35: 29-Isaac . . . died, and was gathered unto his people.
Gen. 49: 33-Jacob . . . yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people.
Isa. 51: 2-Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah.
Isa. 65: 23-blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
Mal. 4: 6-turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers.
Mark 10: 9-What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
1 Cor. 11: 11-neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man in the Lord.
This is the end of the thread.
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