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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Kath on February 19, 2007, at 19:46:13
In reply to Re: possible ***trigger***for bad things one can d, posted by Declan on February 19, 2007, at 12:46:10
> I thought the only unforgiveable sin was a sin against the Holy Spirit, and no one knows what that is anyway.
>
> As for blasphemy, it's as common as dirt these days isn't it, although they call it something else.
** :-) right on! K
Posted by Michael83 on February 19, 2007, at 19:46:13
In reply to possible ***trigger***for bad things one can do... » Michael83, posted by Kath on February 19, 2007, at 12:14:18
>>>>I find it REALLY hard to even BEGIN to believe that God would put the blasphemy part anywhere near the top of the list!!!
That's what gets me so confused.
And God is wise and kind, wouldn't he be able to shrug off and forgive criticism? Even knowing full well the humans he created were not perfect (he created them that way) and possibly misled due to human error.
What kind of God would put a sin against himself above a sin against those he loved? Doesn't a loving person put injuries towards others they love above injuries towards themselves? Like "do what you want with me, just don't hurt those I love"?
>>>>Keep in mind, that it was human beings who wrote the Bible and there are also translations involved. I don't think it's inconcievable that certain things might have come through a bit differently in translation?
I think about that a lot. But then that exempts me from the Bible entirely because how am I to know the rules of life (from the Bible), if what was written or translated (to modern English) is possibly incorrect or misleading from original intention?
None of it makes sense. It never did. I feel liks someone is telling me to believe "2 2 = 5," and if I don't believe it I will be sent to hell.
Posted by Michael83 on February 19, 2007, at 19:46:13
In reply to Re: possible ***trigger***for bad things one can d, posted by Declan on February 19, 2007, at 12:46:10
>>>>>I thought the only unforgiveable sin was a sin against the Holy Spirit, and no one knows what that is anyway.
It's worded as "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit," in the Bible.
According to Wikipedia, it seems no one is quite sure who the Holy Spirit is. I don't know, that's for sure. How can I be expected to know? If I don't even know who or what it is, how can that rule apply to me?
The Holy Spirit could be God, Jesus, Christianity as a whole, or a number of other things.
So someone's eternal soul is on the line, and we don't even know what is what or who is who, and a thousand different Christian organizations and churches telling me differing things, yet we're expected to follow the rule.
Posted by madeline on February 19, 2007, at 20:08:24
In reply to Not feeling that well., posted by Michael83 on February 18, 2007, at 23:53:21
I think that the best way to be a christian is to love Christ and try to emulate Christ.
"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17)
Posted by Lou PIlder on February 19, 2007, at 20:39:05
In reply to Re: Not feeling that well. » Michael83, posted by madeline on February 19, 2007, at 20:08:24
> I think that the best way to be a christian is to love Christ and try to emulate Christ.
>
> "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17)Friends,
From in the post above, I ask if it is saying any of the following:
A. Moses did not know the truth?
B. There was no grace before Jesus Christ?
C. There was no truth before Jesus Christ?
D. The law given by Moses is not the truth?
E. Those that keep the law given by Moses do not know the truth?
F. a combination of the above
G. none of the above
K. something else
If there is clarification of the above, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
Lou
Posted by Kath on February 19, 2007, at 21:37:53
In reply to Re: possible ***trigger***for bad things one can d, posted by Michael83 on February 19, 2007, at 17:54:12
I guess because I don't follow a particular religion, but look to the positive things that any religion I know about teaches, (like love, truthfulness, charity, etc) I don't worry about what any particular book (even if it's holy) says!!
It sounds like that makes it a heck of a lot easier for me to deal with than it would be for someone who is sort of looking to a particular book for guidance or direction.
Kath
Posted by Michael83 on February 19, 2007, at 21:57:50
In reply to Re: Not feeling that well. » Michael83, posted by madeline on February 19, 2007, at 20:08:24
madeline, It's really easy to focus on the good and ignore the bad. The truth is the Bible contains both positive and negative things and if I am going to analyze the Bible and it's contents, I need to be fair and take all of what it says into account, not just what makes me feel good.
The truth is, it does say something I might or might not have done, is unforgivable.
I can ignore it. I can plug my ears, take select verses and ideas out of the Bible, and "create my own personal version of the Bible and Jesus," as so many others do, but that would not be honest. What will make me happy is knowing the truth. Not just adopting a belief system that gets me by. The truth, in it's entirety is the only thing that can calm my worries.
I'm trying to figure out, is "Mark 3:28-29" the truth? Am I guilty of this?
Posted by Michael83 on February 19, 2007, at 22:04:46
In reply to Re: possible ***trigger***for bad things one can d » Michael83, posted by Kath on February 19, 2007, at 21:37:53
>>>>>It sounds like that makes it a heck of a lot easier for me to deal with than it would be for someone who is sort of looking to a particular book for guidance or direction.
I guess that's what separates me from so many other religious people.
I am not, nor have I ever looked for just guidance/direction. I already have that. I trust my own moral judgement, I always have.
I am looking to know if what was said in the Bible is true. Not just true on a philosophical basis, but true true. Meaning, it's real, and these entities (Jesus, Christian God, etc) truly exist as described here in this world.
If they do exist, I am willing to cooperate. They are welcome in my heart.
If not, I will be done with it and move on. I have no desire to adopt just another human being's philosophy. I am not looking for a self-help book. I am looking for a history book.
Posted by rayww on February 19, 2007, at 22:34:21
In reply to possible ***trigger***for bad things one can do... » Michael83, posted by Kath on February 19, 2007, at 12:14:18
> Keep in mind, that it was human beings who wrote the Bible....
<<<Except when it says, "I the Lord" http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=%22I+the+Lord%22&qs_version=9 ,
or "Thus saith the Lord" and then begins first person dialogue. Man may have written and translated the words, but they were first spoken by God, or dictated through the spirit to Prophets. Speaking of prophets God said http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%203:7&version=31
Posted by rayww on February 20, 2007, at 0:18:25
In reply to Re: possible ***trigger***for bad things one can d » Kath, posted by Michael83 on February 19, 2007, at 22:04:46
> >>>>>
> I am looking to know if what was said in the Bible is true. Not just true on a philosophical basis, but true true. Meaning, it's real, and these entities (Jesus, Christian God, etc) truly exist as described here in this world.<<<<Why hasn't God made it easier to know? Because He hopes we will believe through faith. Faith can move mountains because faith harnesses power. How we harness faith should be our quest.
He loves us enough to allow us our choice, but hopes we will choose him. Faith, hope and charity is a two way street with God.>
> If they do exist, I am willing to cooperate. They are welcome in my heart.
>
> If not, I will be done with it and move on. I have no desire to adopt just another human being's philosophy. I am not looking for a self-help book. I am looking for a history book.
<<<Eventually all will be known, just be patient. The Bible is not a secular history book as much as religious history. Humanity started out with the same belief, and it has been passed down through the generations. Each religion has bits and portions of that religion. For instance in my religion we have a temple ceremony that we believe was on the earth in the days of Adam, Enoch, Noah, Moses, etc. People have accused us of piecing it together from fragmants found in Masonry, Dead Sea Scrolls, etc. If you were to study the other major religions I'm sure you would see similarities, even some of the same phrases in all scripture as the Bible. So, how is a person to know which if any is true, when there are so many differing versions of religion?Through faith, God teaches us little by little, precept by precept, here a little, there a little. He teaches at our own level in our own understanding, and will never give up on anyone. So, why would you give up on Him?
Someone said they didn't know who the Holy Spirit was, speaking about blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. That only applies to a person who has seen God, who knows for certain He exists, and then goes against Him by blaspheming. No one needs worry about being thrown out. Don't get discouraged. It's not a race. Each person is entitled to his own personal relationship on his own level with God.
My belief may be different than other Christians, but it is what God has taught me. I have faith that God will teach you too, but you've got to ask.
Posted by madeline on February 20, 2007, at 6:50:37
In reply to Re: Not feeling that well. » madeline, posted by Michael83 on February 19, 2007, at 21:57:50
I think you need to take that passage in the right context and by all means, please take it as a whole.
In Mark 3, Mark was directly addresing the accusations that Christ's miracles were the result of him actually using the power of Satan, and not God, to cast out demons.
Now, I am no biblical scholar, but I do think as much as you may be skeptical of the Bible and christianity, have you ever thought Christ did the work of the devil?
Maddie
Posted by madeline on February 20, 2007, at 7:05:59
In reply to Re: Not feeling that well. » Michael83, posted by madeline on February 20, 2007, at 6:50:37
One more thought on the subject of blasphemy. Roman Emperor Constantine was a pagan before his conversion to Christianity.
There were statues of him in Pagan temples throughout the roman empire. He, himself, was a God I think - most emperors were considered deities.
You really can't get more blasphemous than that, and yet now he is a saint in the Christian church.
There is forgiveness through Christ and one can become sanctified - even with a history of blasphemy.
There is evidence of this throughout the church.
Posted by rayww on February 20, 2007, at 15:48:11
In reply to Re: Not feeling that well. » madeline, posted by Michael83 on February 19, 2007, at 21:57:50
> I'm trying to figure out, is "Mark 3:28-29" the truth? Am I guilty of this?
Michael I'm wondering how you define damnation. This is one definition: "The state of being stopped in one’s progress and denied access to the presence of God and his glory. Damnation exists in varying degrees. "
Damnation here is like a dam of water. The water wants to get out, but can't until it is released.
There is such unwaranted fear among Christians. Sometimes I think most would rather give up than try because of it. I just read a good article. This guy has taken the Bible, and compared it to existing religions, and picked out the truth and errors. I thoroughly enjoyed reading his ideas, and thought it might answer some of your questions. I don't agree with some of what he says, but he says a lot that I do agree with.
http://www.thercg.org/books/wigtc.html
Posted by AuntieMel on February 20, 2007, at 17:16:51
In reply to Re: Not feeling that well. » Michael83, posted by madeline on February 19, 2007, at 20:08:24
"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17)
Please rephrase this post.
Keep in mind that we need to have respect for all faiths equally, your statement needs to reflect that this is your belief. It can't be stated as if it is fact.
This is true even when quoting others.
AuntieMel - acting as deputy for Dr. Bob.
Posted by madeline on February 20, 2007, at 18:37:15
In reply to Re: Please Rephrase » madeline, posted by AuntieMel on February 20, 2007, at 17:16:51
I personally believe the passage in the bible that states
"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17)How's that?
Posted by madeline on February 20, 2007, at 18:46:49
In reply to Lou's response - aspectsof madeline's post-repthe?, posted by Lou PIlder on February 19, 2007, at 20:39:05
Hey, I was just quoting the Bible.
I'm not a biblical scholar, and I have absolutely no idea how to address your points. I also did not intend for that verse to be an endorsement of any kind for any one faith over any other faith.
It was just simply a bible verse that I thought applicable to the current discussion.
That's it, no more no less.
Maddie
Posted by madeline on February 20, 2007, at 18:52:02
In reply to Not feeling that well., posted by Michael83 on February 18, 2007, at 23:53:21
Good luck Michael with your quest. I wish you hope and peace.
Posted by Declan on February 20, 2007, at 21:44:10
In reply to And with that, I am off the faith board., posted by madeline on February 20, 2007, at 18:52:02
Me too.
But before I go, do you know that there is, somewhere in the Old Testament, a prohibition on eating the flesh of griffins?
Perhaps someone with a decent knowledge of the Old Testament can help here?
Posted by rayww on February 20, 2007, at 22:25:34
In reply to Re: Please Rephrase » madeline, posted by AuntieMel on February 20, 2007, at 17:16:51
> "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17)
>
> Please rephrase this post.
>
> Keep in mind that we need to have respect for all faiths equally,
AuntieMel, are you saying a person cannot bring their feelings of confusion about religion here? Your comment shows no respect for Michael or Madeline.
Posted by Michael83 on February 21, 2007, at 5:27:41
In reply to little by little » Michael83, posted by rayww on February 20, 2007, at 0:18:25
rayww, I hope you're right, but you know you cannot expect me to give weight to anyone who thinks they know the nature of God.
I don't need to be "right" about knowing who God is, but I just want the assurance that my position is justified in God's eyes.
>>>>So, why would you give up on Him?
My biggest concerns are, is it my fault if I do give up?
Shouldn't God say, "I don't blame you for giving up."?
>>>>I have faith that God will teach you too, but you've got to ask.
My problem is that I have asked, and the response I've gotten is my now Deist beliefs.
My concern is that I have millions of other humans telling me I'm going to hell for simply following my logic.
I have a sound answer to my religious beliefs, but with everyone in this world constantly running around pointing fingers and telling everyone they're going to hell, it's hard to hold steady in my own understanding.
>>>>but hopes we will choose him.
May I ask, does He expect us to choose Him? Or if we're wrong in who we choose, will he blame us for that mistake?
Posted by Michael83 on February 21, 2007, at 5:37:53
In reply to And with that, I am off the faith board., posted by madeline on February 20, 2007, at 18:52:02
Thank you for your help madeline.
Posted by rayww on February 22, 2007, at 0:06:41
In reply to Re: little by little » rayww, posted by Michael83 on February 21, 2007, at 5:27:41
> My problem is that I have asked, and the response I've gotten is my now Deist beliefs.
> My concern is that I have millions of other humans telling me I'm going to hell for simply following my logic.
> I have a sound answer to my religious beliefs, but with everyone in this world constantly running around pointing fingers and telling everyone they're going to hell, it's hard to hold steady in my own understanding.<<<I can't see why any person would think they knew who was going to hell, when only God can judge. What is hell? Does anyone even know???? If hell is the same as damnation it is simply being in a place that is dammed up away from the presence of God. It is hard for me to imagine what it would feel like were God to completely withdraw his spirit from this earth. I feel close to Him and sustained day by day. I don't know how it would feel to not have Him close by. But I guarantee I would not like to be separated from God.
> May I ask, does He expect us to choose Him? Or if we're wrong in who we choose, will he blame us for that mistake?<<<
It isn't Him blaming us for our mistakes as much as it is our grouping ourselves with others who think the same as we do.<<<<
The God of the OT seems harsh, critical, demanding, and strict, while the God of the NT is loving, compassionate, and kind. Why do you suppose that is? Are they different Gods, or are they different because of the people's perception? The OT people were rebellious, while the NT people believed in his miracles. If you rebel you will likely find God to be different and more distant than a person who tries to submit to His will, who prays, exibits faith, and loves Him.Someone said they thought God would be pro-choice rather than pro-life, because He gives us our choice, and hopes we choose right. You have your agency and are free to choose whatever God you want. BUT....the God whose world this is hopes you choose him. You are free to choose whatever you want, as long as you are happy with the consequenses of being eternally grouped with others like you.
I believe in the kind compassionate God, and I believe He will not leave anyone in the dark forever.
Posted by Michael83 on February 22, 2007, at 4:36:55
In reply to Re: little by little » Michael83, posted by rayww on February 22, 2007, at 0:06:41
>>>>>You are free to choose whatever you want
That is 100% incorrect, and is the basis for what I've been troubled with for years and what I'm been pounding on this forum for almost a year.
Do you understand that it's not a choice that I do not believe?
Do you understand the human mind and how it works?
We do not have complete freedom of will, that is undisputed and factual. I am not a professional in the subject, but I do know we are bound by the habits of our mind, which are simply chemicals and electric pulses in our brain.
Every thought, every action comes from how nature created our brain and how it communicates with itself. Chemicals, electronic pulses.
Do some people choose to be intelligent? Is intelligence a choice?
What about people on this forum? Many suffer from issues relating to chemical imbalances in the brain (that is essentially what most mental disorders are). Can they "choose" not to be depressed?
Why do you think they prescribe medication to correct these imbalances? Do you ever hear of a psychiatrist say, "Choose not to be depressed, it's a choice." Because it's not a choice!
IT'S NOT A CHOICE DO NOT BELIEVE JESUS.
It do not believe because it does not make sense to me and my brain, the way I was programmed to think, refuses to accept something based on "faith."
Do you understand that? Do you understand we're living organisms and we're at the mercy of our human biology? We're not mystical "spirits" who have some sort of perfect working connection with the world around us. We're living flesh and our thoughts are chemicals and pulses in our brain.
I'm sorry this message is harsh, but many religious people do not seem to understand that everything in life is not a choice.
I'm very interested in reading your response to this.
Posted by madeline on February 22, 2007, at 6:59:11
In reply to Re: little by little » rayww, posted by Michael83 on February 22, 2007, at 4:36:55
Simply because what you are struggling with Micheal is something that I have gone through as well.
What you say in your post is exactly right, we are strongly bound by our physical being.
You have no reason to believe this so you will just have to trust me, but I am a scientist in the medical sciences. I am completely inculcated in the scientific method and, pretty much follow an evidence based life.
We are programmed to do a lot of things by our chemistry, we are programmed to seek food, reproduce and seek shelter. We are hardwired to seek the companionship of fellow humans.
We are also programmed to love.
To me the desire to accept christ was a very natural extension of that program. It came out of love and not definitive physical evidence that he was the son of god or any of that.
To me, he was a real man and he made a real sacrifice for us. He taught us how to live peaceful lives and brought the hope (another program in my opinion) of something bigger than ourselves.
I still go to work everyday and do my research and try to understand all of the chemicals and pulses in our body, how they impact our lives, and how they can go horribly wrong.
And I accept the love that my brain tells me to feel.
Maddie
Posted by Michael83 on February 22, 2007, at 16:53:03
In reply to Re: little by little - okay I'm back » Michael83, posted by madeline on February 22, 2007, at 6:59:11
But someone like me, who cannot believe because of the way I think, am to be punished for this?
Clearly the Bible states non-believers are not included in the "eternal salvation" plan.
So I'm punished for something beyond my control. Is this a fair system?
Let me tell you what separates me from so many other people, religious or even non-religious people. When I think about a belief system or any sort of ideology about mankind, I don't just think "how does it effect me?" I think of all possible situations for all possible types of people to judge whether or not it's valid.
I think of the person born and raised in another culture. Is a Buddhist born and raised in China to blame for not accepting Jesus? Or the Hindu in India? Or the Muslim in Jordan? The impact of the idea of Jesus has much less effect on them because it's not the primary way of thinking.
Is a man whose mind it intensely logical and because of this cannot make the leap of faith to blame?
I could go on and go, listing hundreds and thousands of different kinds of people throughout the world and thinking "what is it like from their perspective?"
It's so easy for religious people to pound "it's a choice! it's a choice!" But the fact is it's not. Biological factors, psychological conditioning, cultural factors are all huge players in this and any system that expects everyone to believe in one certain thing is bound to have good people who deserve heaven fall through the cracks. And no perfect God would create an imperfect system.
If there is any shred of truth to Christianity, the only possible way could be through John Marks Templeton (one religious person I admire greatly for his humility in religious matters) ideas, where although he is a Christian and once was even a minister, he believes God reveals himself in many different forms to many different people throughout the world and throughout history. Anything else leads to an unjust system, in my opinion.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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