![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 26. Go back in thread:
Posted by rayww on August 22, 2004, at 23:20:23
In reply to the description of the board, posted by Jai Narayan on August 22, 2004, at 17:30:03
Thank God you can still thank God as you wonder about the supernatural. I wonder about it also, and believe the good and evil spiritual sphere is right here on earth. When people who have had a near death report their experience most of them say they passed through a long corridor toward a bright light. Some say a parent or grandparent met them, while others have a different story. Regardless, the earth is full of space for everything pertaining to itself. Even the earth has a spirit. If only we could part the veil just for a minute, we may be quite surprised at what we could see. Has anyone here had such an experience?
God so loved the world that He didn't send a committee.
Are there committees in heaven that work with committees on earth? Think about it. I know of a couple, and have heard of even more. I think the constitution was attended by angels. It is a remarkable document. Any thoughts?
Posted by Dena on August 23, 2004, at 8:46:50
In reply to Re: the description of the board, posted by rayww on August 22, 2004, at 23:20:23
> Thank God you can still thank God as you wonder about the supernatural.
I found that rather ironic, myself!
> God so loved the world that He didn't send a committee.
> Are there committees in heaven that work with committees on earth? Think about it. I know of a couple, and have heard of even more. I think the constitution was attended by angels. It is a remarkable document. Any thoughts?I agree about the Constitution, though many would argue that we're not following it anymore, rather, certain judges are ignoring the intent of the Constitution and are reinterpreting it, and changing it (which violates the Constitution itself) in order to force their own agendas upon the rest of us ... so much for a democracy - we're turning into a dictatorship, where the people don't have a choice.
I believe that the framers of the Constitution, as well as all the founders of our nation, believed in a Creator God. They believed we needed to be led by Him in order to be a free, secure and strong nation.
They believed in religious tolerance, which includes a tolerance for Christians to speak their beliefs openly.
That particular tolerance is lacking on this board.
It's interesting to me that only in nations that claim to have a Christian foundation is religious tolerance found... in nations which are founded upon other faiths, Christians are persecuted and murdered.
Shouldn't tolerance for all faiths include Christianity?
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 23, 2004, at 15:01:48
In reply to Re: the description of the board » rayww, posted by Dena on August 23, 2004, at 8:46:50
> It's interesting to me that only in nations that claim to have a Christian foundation is religious tolerance found... in nations which are founded upon other faiths, Christians are persecuted and murdered.
Please don't post anything that could lead those of other faiths to feel accused or put down. The last time you were blocked, it was for 16 weeks, so this time, it's for 32.
Anyone who has questions about this or about posting policies in general, or who is interested in alternative ways of expressing themselves, should see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Also, follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by rayww on August 23, 2004, at 16:03:28
In reply to Re: the description of the board » rayww, posted by Dena on August 23, 2004, at 8:46:50
Oh Dena you babble like I do. It's so hard to stop once you get started, and so hard to tell what you're going to say until it's too late to turn back, and now you're blocked again? I think Dr B is trying to test your patience. Forgiveness? Tollerance? Well, sing a hymn. It may make you feel better.
I don't think you have ever written anything that I couldn't enjoy reading. Is it OK to say that as a Christian I don't quite agree with your interpretation of the Bible's definition of God? Even so, you have the privilege to believe as you wish, as we all do.
Perhaps you might state your faith as your "belief" and own it yourself, so others won't feel judged or purgatoryed. Personally I have never felt condemned to such fate by you or anyone else, because I don't believe there is such a place, but that is how I choose to believe.
You have to admit that it is tempting to pretend we have the power to purgatory someone. Zap, you're gone into outer darkness, just like that. Bob, have you ever tried forgiveness?
Posted by Jai Narayan on August 23, 2004, at 23:13:51
In reply to Re: blocked for 32 weeks » Dena, posted by Dr. Bob on August 23, 2004, at 15:01:48
Okay I may not totally understand but what???
why is she blocked from this?
I really don't understand.
Ps my computer is dying so I may not be able to get this response post from Dr. B.
I am still curious.
I am dumfounded.
Dear Dr. B, I would love to understand your standards. I pondered having a real discussion with Dena but I just really didn't know how to do it. Did I mess up?
Is this my fault? I am so confused.
Posted by Jai Narayan on August 24, 2004, at 6:46:07
In reply to Re: blocked for 32 weeks » Dena, posted by Dr. Bob on August 23, 2004, at 15:01:48
Posted by RH on August 26, 2004, at 23:14:07
In reply to Re: the description of the board » rayww, posted by Dena on August 23, 2004, at 8:46:50
Dena:
It is simply not true that Christians are persecuted in countries tht do not have a Christian basis. There are only a few countries where they are persecuted, and the reasons are somewhat different in each and are sometimes political.
Jesus never promised his followers a rose garden here on earth.
That part of your mind that produces the thought to make religio/political statements is the part that needs examining. For instance, if Jesus was posting here, I don't think he would raise political issues, because he clearly said, "Give unto Rome what is Rome's, give unto God what is God's".
So why do you feel the need to grouse, here of all places? What is at the root of THAT?
However, that said, I also chide those who would be offended at your remarks, becuase they are not really all that offensive.
Believing in a God or path of enlightenment is a "belief", thus it's understanding can't be helped by logic, nor can it be assailed by logic.
If I had a religion, which I don't, I would invite all to attack me with every word they had in their flimsy arsenals, because I would simply smile contentedly and say to myself, "I know I am right!". And in ignoring the slings and arrows of others, I would wonder then why they are firing on someone who does not care if they fire or not. Then, they would seem most ridiculous!
People of Faith - carry on!
RH
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 27, 2004, at 9:36:57
In reply to Re: the description of the board, posted by RH on August 26, 2004, at 23:14:07
> That part of your mind ... needs examining.
>
> So why do you feel the need to grouse, here of all places?Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or anyone else has questions about this or about posting policies in general, or is interested in alternative ways of expressing oneself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Also, follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Jai Narayan on August 27, 2004, at 10:22:35
In reply to Re: the description of the board, posted by RH on August 26, 2004, at 23:14:07
Dear RH this is precisely the problem:
If I had a religion, which I don't, I would invite all to attack me with every word they had in their flimsy arsenals, because I would simply smile contentedly and say to myself, "I know I am right!".***Who can say what is "right"?
Being secure in religious beliefs is different from being "right".
Being "right" means that others are wrong.
Do you see what I am saying?I am on a path toward enlightenment but I am not interested in being attacked or challenged. I am interested in embracing all paths.
Not seeing one path as exclusively the right path. The way I see it, this world is so full of people who are alive with the spirit of the divine and their ideas, beliefs, and practices could be celebrated.
My only concern is if the belief is advocating doing harm. I don't celebrate doing harm in the name of God, Goddess, etc.The piece that confuses me is when a Religion needs to have the exclusive rights over God/Divine.
That their God is the only God and if you are in another religion then your God is not a real God.
Posted by Simus on August 28, 2004, at 2:44:52
In reply to Re: the description of the board, posted by RH on August 26, 2004, at 23:14:07
> It is simply not true that Christians are persecuted in countries tht do not have a Christian basis. There are only a few countries where they are persecuted, and the reasons are somewhat different in each and are sometimes political.
You admit that Christians are indeed being persecuted, so you are not completely ignorant of world news. But now you need to go back and take a look at the dominant/national religion(s) of the countries where these Christians are being persecuted.
> Jesus never promised his followers a rose garden here on earth.
> For instance, if Jesus was posting here, I don't think he would raise political issues, because he clearly said, "Give unto Rome what is Rome's, give unto God what is God's".You aren't a follower of Jesus by your own admission, you obviously don't know the Bible, and yet you really believe you know what Jesus would or wouldn't say? Actually, what He CLEARLY said was: Matthew 22:21 (kjv) "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." The reason He said that is found in verse 15-21 "Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk. And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men. Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's"." Clearly, Jesus not only didn't hesitate to comment on political issues, He also wouldn't have fit in well on a "politically correct" message board.
> If I had a religion, which I don't, I would invite all to attack me with every word they had in their flimsy arsenals, because I would simply smile contentedly and say to myself, "I know I am right!". And in ignoring the slings and arrows of others, I would wonder then why they are firing on someone who does not care if they fire or not. Then, they would seem most ridiculous!Ahhh, yes. So easy to say when the only weapons coming at you are only words... But would you be so bold to defend your faith if your life, the life of your family and friends, your home, etc. were at stake?
Posted by RH on August 28, 2004, at 2:54:06
In reply to Re: the description of the board, posted by Jai Narayan on August 27, 2004, at 10:22:35
Hello, good day to you.
Yes, but the point of having a religion, which requires a god or gods, is to limit one's horizons in order to be stronger. By accepting doctrines handed down from above, one has fewer decsions to make, less to think about and consider. Not necessarily a bad thing. At the same time, most of the benificial religions are challenging to their members, which is good. That is why they are often strong; for instance, the religious in very poor neighorhoods fare better.
But what is enlightenment? The "Enlightenment" of Europe, 1600 to 1800, attacked spiritual beliefs, or any belief in the metaphysical, and replaced it with scientism and positivism.
I don't know what to say to those who insist their religion is right for everyone. But then, if I am free not to join, I don't mind them - in fact I will eat with them.
I believe there is a metaphysical aspect to reality - or should I say I hope there is. I think I can see it, but its foggy.
Does that make any sense to you?
Posted by Jai Narayan on August 28, 2004, at 9:10:22
In reply to Re: the description of the board, posted by RH on August 28, 2004, at 2:54:06
**Good morning RH,
> But what is enlightenment?**The defination of enlighten according to Websters dictionary:
"To give the light of fact and knowledge to; to reveal truths; free from ignorance, prejudice or superstition. To lighten up. "The masters, Guru's, Lama's etc have pondered this question you ask for 1000's of years. You might say you have asked what seems like a small question but it's depth is bottomless. So my desire is to satisfy your need for an answer but I am dumbfounded.
What can I say?
"To lighten up."
To lighten up I have worked on my: body, mind, emotions, intellect and spirit
Each task has been worked on separately and simultaneously.
For me the beginning of my journey was to let go of certain things:
1. my beliefs in my familial religion had to be examined and some of it discarded. At one point all of my beliefs began spewing out of me and I lived for a period of time with very few beliefs. That period was very scary but I survived.
2. My psychological traumas had to be worked out (that has taken me 56 years) so that I didn't have unconscious motivations. I needed to empty my unconscious to bring to awareness my behaviors and thoughts.
3. The fear I lived with since my birth needed to be examined and worked through. It seemed to impact everything. I needed to get off the triangle of: vicitm, rescuer and persecutor. (Still working on that)
4. I have hope to conquer my fear of death (still working on that one)
5. I need to keep my body healthy.
6. I hope to live a longtime with all my faculties intact to accomplish as much growth as possible.This growth is an ongoing process.
As I grow and take on more mind,body, spirit expansion Life has a way of presenting tests of my increased awarenesses. When I am in conflict that's when I seem to learn the most.
I have the painful process of opening up to the lesson that this conflict is presenting to me. The desire is to reject but the greatest teaching for me is to remain open and be humble.
Wow, sorry this was not as short as I had hoped.
You have tapped a deep well.
Posted by Jai Narayan on August 28, 2004, at 11:07:15
In reply to Re: the description of the board, posted by Jai Narayan on August 28, 2004, at 9:10:22
Posted by RH on August 28, 2004, at 18:48:49
In reply to Re: the description of the board » RH, posted by Simus on August 28, 2004, at 2:44:52
Simus:
Thank you for your interest in my post.
I look at the psychological side of religion,as well as it's history, as I am very intereseted in it but as I have said I do not have that thing called faith.
I have examined the religious and political backgrounds of nations where Christians are persecuted today, and I find psychological reasons are a better explanation of the persecutions, and thus the relevance to this website.
Here is a link to an insightful history of Islam, which helps to understand it not so much as a religion but as another episode in the ongoing drama called mankind.
http://www.friesian.com/islam.htm#ayyub
But if you condsider the Sudan, where southerners who are mostly Christian are being chased off their land, and killed if they don't leave, it should be apparent that they are not being persecuted for being Christian, but for occupying land that is desired by the dominant northern group, which happens to be Muslim, and the land is wanted for its natural resources, namely oil, not to mention water. So any group standing in the way of the oil exploration and developement would come under the same oppression. And if the southern area was occupied by Muslims, the northerners would most likely have to refrain from the drastic tactics they use against non-muslims, simply to avoid seeming hypocritical and simply to remain in power. But if the southern group was Muslim, they would have to obey their ruler's commands to get out of the way of the oil companies, and they would probably oblige obediently.
Anyone, of any belief or non-belief, who stands in the way of oil exploration in the Sudan, will be persecuted. The force behind this is not Islam, it is greed, a much more powerful force than religion, in so far as religions that teach against greed have largely failed in getting the world to listen to them on this matter.
On the psychological side, the question is simply why do people even accept the idea of being antagonistic towards one another. If you look at the history of men who rule men, it can be seen that most rulers have been absoutley immoral, and I have a hunch this creates intergenerational nastiness in family lines, for instance in the royal families of Europe. So my thesis is basically that a kind of self-hate and self-loathing permeates rulers and ruling families, and this makes them indifferent to killing, maiming and doing whatever to aquire the material possesions they need to feel good each day.
One thing that puzzles me is why members of a religion accept the various interpretations of their teachers, preachers, imams and rulers.
I found a clue in this:
I Greco/Judeo/Christian belief systems: "The gods love the pious because they are pious".
In the Islamic tradition: "What the gods love, is pious."
(the above is from this link: http://www.friesian.com/antinom.htm)
In the former, for instance, Jews and Christians have a book to follow and no preacher can deviate too far from the book lest his followers call him on it (unless they are afraid to speak out under penalty of heresy, as in the Middle Ages of Europe)
In the latter, Muslims must submit to the teachings of the imams, since is is they "know better", even if the teachings seem to go against the Koran in some way. Speaking out is not encouraged in Islam.
So though there may not be anything fundamentally wrong with Islam, it may just be that the current interpretation is wrong. But why would it be misinterpreted. Again, only a psychological analysis can answer that, and it usually has to do with power and greed, which I think are caused by immoral behavior and all kinds of internalized guilt and other nasty things, all of which should be avoidable but apparently are not. As you can read in the above link, there was much immmorality amoung Islamic rulers of the past, and that indicates to me various pyschological weaknesses, pressures, stress.
And regardless of anything, the persecuted always record in their history that they were "in the right". So even in Medievil and late Medievil Europe, we have Protestant Christians suffering at the hands of Catholics, and the Protestants recorded it as persecution, but the Catholics recorded it as dealing with heretics (of course for centuries now the Catholics have admitted it was persecution).
Anyway, if one faith is better than another, or more right in some way, then it will become predominant over time, won't it?
In keeping with the tone of this website, a tone of therapy and healing and psychology, I suggest that there should be psychological limits to work within religious frameworks, that is to say, it would make sense to me if the relgious did not violate any of the obvious and well accepted ethics that come out of psychology. For example, religions should be held to a standard of not doing things to people that cause harm or might create bitterness in people that will weaken their will and lead them to harm others, creating a ripple effect. That is the basis of religious tolerance, which is a secular concept, specifically one that does not abhor religion but requires constraints.
ok, I'm running out of gas.
Have a nice day
RH
Posted by RH on August 28, 2004, at 20:07:33
In reply to Re: the description of the board, posted by Jai Narayan on August 28, 2004, at 9:10:22
Jai:
Yes, enlightenment is a difficult thing to pin down. I'm not sure it is even possible, because one always has perspectives, which are predjudices. Then even if one was to try to be perspectiveless, that would also be a perspective. And what would be the point of being human, if one did not have perspectives. Without perspectives we would be beasts or machines.
That explains my dilemma. That is why I can't be an atheist or agnostic, because both of those are perpectives, and I don't see them as being objective. So although I do not have a faith, that does not mean I don't want one.
I have noticed that many atheists are pre-occupied with believers - I can only understand that in psychological terms, namely that they are not at ease with their atheism, which indicates a self doubt of sorts.
You seem to study and search believing that there is an enlightenment, while I do the same while still questioning enlightenment in general.
In the proceess, we both become more understanding, and thus hopefully, less confused, and that has to be a good thing.
In the end, despite all I may learn, I don't feel I will be all that much better off than someone who lives happily with blind faith.
Yet I study on. One benefit of study: First, one becomes aware that one is confused, then one gradually becomes less confused, and the reduction in confusion leads to a more stable contented mood, and happiness seems more within one's grasp.
RH
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 30, 2004, at 1:07:44
In reply to Re: the description of the board, posted by RH on August 28, 2004, at 2:54:06
> the point of having a religion ... is to limit one's horizons
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. I've already asked you to be civil, so now I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
If you or anyone else has questions about this or about posting policies in general, or is interested in alternative ways of expressing oneself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Also, follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Jai Narayan on August 30, 2004, at 21:44:45
In reply to Re: the description of the board, posted by RH on August 28, 2004, at 20:07:33
You have a very interesting perspective. I too was where you are now. This place you are in is very free. No beliefs is very freeing. I sort of miss it. but I am bound to something that is sort imprinted on my soul. I need to finish off with this last path of Buddhism. It is my last.
RH I saw you have been blocked, I am sorry I enjoyed our discussion. I will await your block ending to resume our dialogue. I hope you are well. Did you know it was coming?
Sorry.
Posted by NikkiT2 on September 13, 2004, at 17:18:08
In reply to Re: the description of the board » rayww, posted by Dena on August 23, 2004, at 8:46:50
Huh??!
Are Christians murdered and persecuted in Buddhist countries??
Are they murdered and persecuted in Hindu countries? In Sikh countries??
Posted by Simus on September 15, 2004, at 19:46:31
In reply to Re: the description of the board » Dena, posted by NikkiT2 on September 13, 2004, at 17:18:08
> Huh??!
>
> Are Christians murdered and persecuted in Buddhist countries??
> Are they murdered and persecuted in Hindu countries? In Sikh countries??
Yes.
http://bhutan4christ.com/persecution.html
http://www.crossroad.to/News/Persecution/
http://www.christianpersecution.info/features/buddist-attack-churches-sri-lanka.html
http://www.csw.org.uk/CSWnews.asp?item=429
http://www.persecution.com/news/index.cfm?action=fullstory&newsid=189
http://www.persecution.com/news/index.cfm?action=fullstory&newsid=235
http://www.persecution.com/news/index.cfm?action=fullstory&newsid=121
http://www.persecution.com/news/index.cfm?action=fullstory&newsid=39
http://www.persecution.com/news/index.cfm?action=fullstory&newsid=259
http://www.persecution.com/news/index.cfm?action=fullstory&newsid=175
http://www.persecution.com/news/index.cfm?action=fullstory&newsid=153
http://www.persecution.com/news/index.cfm?action=fullstory&newsid=117
http://www.pluralism.org/news/intl/index.php?xref=Anti-Christian+Violence%2FVandalism&sort=DESC
Posted by rayww on September 16, 2004, at 17:23:21
In reply to Re: the description of the board » NikkiT2, posted by Simus on September 15, 2004, at 19:46:31
Posted by Jai Narayan on September 16, 2004, at 20:16:41
In reply to Re: the description of the board » NikkiT2, posted by Simus on September 15, 2004, at 19:46:31
Are/or have christians been murderers and persecutors?
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 17, 2004, at 8:43:11
In reply to Re: the description of the board, posted by Jai Narayan on September 16, 2004, at 20:16:41
Posted by Jai Narayan on September 17, 2004, at 15:07:19
In reply to Re: let's try to stick to support, thanks (nm), posted by Dr. Bob on September 17, 2004, at 8:43:11
Posted by rayww on September 17, 2004, at 17:58:58
In reply to Re: the description of the board, posted by Jai Narayan on September 16, 2004, at 20:16:41
Everyone is guilty so everyone needs to repent. Can anyone point their finger at another without three more pointing back at themself?
Posted by Jai Narayan on September 17, 2004, at 21:47:42
In reply to Re: the description of the board » Jai Narayan, posted by rayww on September 17, 2004, at 17:58:58
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Faith | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.