![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 51. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by dave1 on February 29, 2004, at 9:27:27
Hi,
I'm still having some problems with my basic fundamental Christian beliefs. I was reading the bo ok "The case for Christ". One thing it said was Jesus was who he said he was, or he was delusional. The book then refuted the idea that Jesus was delusional. I was wondering what other people thought. Could Jesus have been delusional and still did everything he did in such a rational manner??? When I read about delusional people it said that they can have their delusion but act normal in aspects of their lives not
related to the delusion.Thanks,
Dave
Posted by Dena on February 29, 2004, at 22:10:09
In reply to faith problem, posted by dave1 on February 29, 2004, at 9:27:27
Dear Dave -
Do you believe that Jesus was delusional? Is that what you want to believe?
What does your heart tell you?
When you read what he said, how he taught, the miracles he performed, does it strike you that he sounds like a delusional man?
Could a delusional man have managed to fulfill all of the prophecies about the Messiah that Jesus fulfilled? Sure, some of them were within his power to fulfill, such as processing into Jerusalem, but could he really have fulfilled to whom he was born? And where he was born? And how he died? And where he was buried? Here are just a few of the prophecies he fulfilled while on this planet:
According to the Old Testament, the Messiah must...
Be born in Bethlehem -
Prophecy: Micah 5:2
Fulfillment: Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7Be adored by great persons -
Prophecy: Psalms 72:10-11
Fulfillment: Matthew 2:1-11Be annointed with the Spirit of God -
Prophecy: Isaiah 11:2, 61:1
Fulfillment: Matthew 3:16; John 3:34; Acts 10:38Be hated without cause -
Prophecy: Isaiah 49:7; Psalms 69:4
Fulfillment: John 15:24-25Be undesired and rejected by His own people -
Prophecy: Isaiah 53:2, 63:3; Psalms 69:8
Fulfillment: Mark 6:3; Luke 9:58; John 1:11
Be plotted against by Jews and Gentiles together -
Prophecy: Psalms 2:1-2
Fulfillment: Acts 4:27Be betrayed by a friend-
Prophecy: Psalms 41:9, 55:12-24
Fulfillment: Matthew 26:21-25, 47-50; John 13:18-21; Acts 1:16-18Be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver -
Prophecy: Zechariah 11:12
Fulfillment: Matthew 26:16Have his price given for a potter’s field -
Prophecy: Zechariah 11:13
Fulfillment: Matthew 27:7Be forsaken by His disciples -
Prophecy: Zechariah 13:7
Fulfillment: Matthew 26:31, 56Be struck on the cheek -
Prophecy: Micah 5:1
Fulfillment: Matthew 27:30Be spat on -
Prophecy: Isaiah 50:6
Fulfillment: Matthew 26:67, 27:30Be mocked -
Prophecy: Psalms 22:7-8
Fulfillment: Matthew 27:31, 39-44Be beaten -
Prophecy: Isaiah 50:6
Fulfillment: Matthew 26:67, 27:26, 30Be thirsty during His execution -
Prophecy: Psalms 22:15
Fulfillment: John 19:28Be given vinegar to quench that thirst -
Prophecy: Psalms 69:21
Fulfilment: Matthew 27:34Be considered a transgressor -
Prophecy: Isaiah 53:12
Fulfillment: Matthew 27:38Be buried with the rich when dead -
Prophecy: Isaiah 53:9
Fulfillment: Matthew 27:57-60
Be sought after by Gentiles as well as Jews -
Prophecy: Isaiah 11:10, 42:1
Fulfillment: Acts 10:45Be accepted by the Gentiles -
Prophecy: Isaiah 11:10, 42:1-4, 49:1-12
Fulfillment: Matthew 12:21; Acts 10:45; Romans 15:9-12This is a small sample of the total number of prophecies about the Messiah which Jesus Christ fulfilled (the total number of prophecies that He fulfilled is more than 400).
He claimed to be the Messiah. Others made that claim about Him, & even willingly died rather than renounce Him. He performed miracles while here. His resurrection was witnessed by more than 500 people who saw Him alive, after His death.
To get a feel for the probabilities involved, consider this. An author and speaker named Josh McDowell calculated the odds of Jesus fulfilling only eight (out of more than 400) of the Messianic prophecies as 1 out of 10 to the 17th power (a one followed by 17 zeros). This is equivalent to covering the entire state of Texas with silver dollars two feet deep, marking one of them, mixing them all up and having a blind-folded person select the marked one at random the first time.
But you know, no one ever came to believe in Him because of the overwhelming evidence in His favor. Even in the face of the evidence, we can hold back, out of fear, reluctance, pride, stubbornness, etc. It all boils down to a leap of faith.
He said He is the Son of God. He said He is the way, the truth and the life. He said no one comes to the Father but by Him.
These are His words, not mine.
It all comes down to this: Was He telling the truth? Was He lying? Was He a lunatic.
You get to make that choice for yourself.
What does your heart tell you?
Shalom, Dena
Posted by dave1 on March 1, 2004, at 11:31:25
In reply to Re: faith problem » dave1, posted by Dena on February 29, 2004, at 22:10:09
Hi Dena,
No, I don't believe Christ was delusional. I just thought if I could prove he wasn't then that would be proof that he was the Son of God.
I used to be a hardcore Christian, but my OCD problems caused to get away from it. Now, that I have my OCD under some control with high doses of Prozac, I am trying get back to Christianity, but am having some troubles with my beliefs. The prophecies are very convincing.
I didn't realize there were 400. I thought there only about 40, which would still be a lot.Once thing regarding the prophecy about Jesus being being born Bethlehem. I heard an argument that he was really born in Nazareth because the Bible always refers to him as Jesus of Nazareth, not Jesus of Bethlehem. What is your opinion?
Thanks,
Dave
Posted by simus on March 2, 2004, at 1:07:46
In reply to Re: faith problem, posted by dave1 on March 1, 2004, at 11:31:25
> Once thing regarding the prophecy about Jesus being being born Bethlehem. I heard an argument that he was really born in Nazareth because the Bible always refers to him as Jesus of Nazareth, not Jesus of Bethlehem. What is your opinion?
Dave,I appreciate your heart to learn.
Mary and Joseph lived in Nazareth before Jesus was born. Luke 1:26-27
When Caesar Augustus called for a census, Joseph took Mary and went to Bethlehem to register because Joseph was of the lineage of David (that was just where the lineage of David registered). While they were there, Jesus was born. Luke 2:1-7
They did return home to Nazareth, which is where Jesus grew up. So Nazareth was Jesus' "hometown", so to speak. Luke 2:39-40
God bless.
Posted by Jai Narayan on March 4, 2004, at 15:47:42
In reply to Re: faith problem » dave1, posted by simus on March 2, 2004, at 1:07:46
There is another study about the Christ from the Hierarchy.
"He is that Great Being Whom the Christians calls the Christ: He is known also in the Orient as the Bodhisattva. He it is Who has presided over the destinies of life since about 600 B.C. and He it is Who has come out among men before, and who is again looked for. He is the great Lord of Love and of Compassion, just as his predecessor, the Buddha, was the Lord of Wisdom."
This quote is from "Initiation Human and Solar" translated by Alice A. Bailey published by the Lucis Publishing Company.
I just wanted to share what I find interesting.Jesus was a very highly evolved person and became a Christed being. That is unique and very special. Just as Buddha was.
I am so glad you asked your question. I appreciate a questing mind.
Jai Narayan
Posted by Dena on March 5, 2004, at 19:03:05
In reply to now from a completely different angle, posted by Jai Narayan on March 4, 2004, at 15:47:42
> There is another study about the Christ from the Hierarchy.
> "He is that Great Being Whom the Christians calls the Christ: He is known also in the Orient as the Bodhisattva. He it is Who has presided over the destinies of life since about 600 B.C. and He it is Who has come out among men before, and who is again looked for. He is the great Lord of Love and of Compassion, just as his predecessor, the Buddha, was the Lord of Wisdom."
> This quote is from "Initiation Human and Solar" translated by Alice A. Bailey published by the Lucis Publishing Company.
> I just wanted to share what I find interesting.
>
> Jesus was a very highly evolved person and became a Christed being. That is unique and very special. Just as Buddha was.
> I am so glad you asked your question. I appreciate a questing mind.
> Jai NarayanJohn 1
1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."Jesus is the Word made flesh.
Jesus was around before there was a universe to be around in. He is the One who spoke the universe into existence. Thus, He's been presiding over life for far longer than merely 600 B.C. His identity has never been confused with that of Buddha, nor with anyone else, for those who know Him as the great I Am. Jesus didn't evolve - He created all that is. He has no equal.
While He certainly doesn't need my defense, I didn't want there to be any confusion as to who HE said He is.
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 6, 2004, at 0:54:53
In reply to Re: now from a completely different angle » Jai Narayan, posted by Dena on March 5, 2004, at 19:03:05
> Jesus ... has no equal.
Sorry to interrupt, but keeping in mind that the idea here is not to put down other beliefs, could you please rephrase that? Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dena on March 6, 2004, at 8:57:26
Dr. Bob -
You have asked me to rephrase this:
"Jesus has no equal."
What exactly are you asking me to do? Are you putting me in the position of choosing between denouncing who He is (the only Son of God)in order to satisfy the demands of this board, or holding to what I know to be true in order to remain on this board?
Are you asking me to sell out my faith?
Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, the long-foretold Messiah of the world, who miraculously fulfilled over 400 prophesies about the Messiah. Countless others have testified as to His diety. All other religious leaders lived, died and were buried. Jesus alone lived, died and rose from the dead; more than 500 witnesses attested to the fact. How can anyone else be His equal?
I'm not saying that other faiths, other belief systems, are inequal, or inferior. Everyone is entitled to have their very own special, unique system of faith - God allows it, why should I object? No one can claim that their faith is better than someone elses, & I'm not making that claim here.
But Jesus is who He is; He is who He says He is. I'm sticking by my claim, His claim really, that He has no equal. All religions may be equally valid, as they stem from human design. But Jesus, as the only one who is 100% God while also 100% man, is truly unique. Are you asking me to lie about that, to compromise His reality?
Asking me to do that is hardly supportive of my faith. It breaches the integrity of this board.
I'm sure that you'll block me for this refusal to compromise my faith, and for my refusal to compromise the truth about Jesus Christ.
I cannot do that, and I will not do that. Regardless of the consequences, even if you block me for a year, or permanently. My allegience to Jesus must come first. I love Him too much to denounce him for any reason. He died a horrible death for me. The least I can do is to be faithful to Him.
I'm more than a little dissapointed that you would put me in this position, but I'm also grateful for the opportunity to take a stand for Him.
Posted by Dena on March 6, 2004, at 8:58:38
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Dena, posted by Dr. Bob on March 6, 2004, at 0:54:53
Dr. Bob -
I've replied to your request to rephrase my statement in a new thread.
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Jai Narayan on March 6, 2004, at 11:45:24
In reply to now from a completely different angle, posted by Jai Narayan on March 4, 2004, at 15:47:42
I just thought I might include a website for this information.
http://beaskund.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/index.html
I think you can just copy and paste into the address: area of your computer
Is there any one else into this besides me?
I'd love to know....
Posted by Jai Narayan on March 6, 2004, at 11:50:55
In reply to Alice Bailey and Djwhal Khul, posted by Jai Narayan on March 6, 2004, at 11:45:24
To the God,
Who is in the fire
and in the waters;To the God,
Who has suffused Himself
through all the world;
To the God Who is in summer plants
and in the lords of the forest;
To that God be adoration, adoration.Sh'vet Upanishad II,17
Jai Narayan
Posted by rayww on March 6, 2004, at 13:28:02
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Dena, posted by Dr. Bob on March 6, 2004, at 0:54:53
> > Jesus ... has no equal.
>
> Sorry to interrupt, but keeping in mind that the idea here is not to put down other beliefs, could you please rephrase that? Thanks,
>
> BobThe true passion of the Christ is the esteem he holds for each of us. As we are placed upon his pedestal we are elevated to meet him. We, like Jesus, are all spirit sons and daughters of God. That makes us equal to him as his brothers and sisters. He was the firstborn of the Father and shone above the rest. He has birthright and honor of being the eldest of Father's children. Others have been trying to de-throne him since that time in the Heaven of spirits. Lucifer, another son of God was one who, with his army of 1/3 of all the hosts of heaven, fought to de-throne Jesus Christ even before the earth was created. But 2/3 of the spirits of heaven, which means every single one of us, chose the plan set out by Christ of agency and accountability. Christ offered to set himself up as our advocate and volunteered to come to earth to atone (suffer and compensate) for our sins. Lucifer and his followers were cast out of heaven and denied the privilege of ever obtaining a physical body.
He came to earth to show us the way by his example. He was showing us how we should live. Are we equal to living a life of compassion and love? Then we are equal to Jesus. Can we help our neighbor? Then we are equal to Jesus. Can we show concern and feel sad when others are hurting? Can we help heal one anothers broken hearts? Then we are equal to Jesus.
So, to rephrase Dena's statement that may offend others, I would say, "Jesus has equal"
I will take dena's stripes. Block me.
Posted by Dena on March 6, 2004, at 16:13:59
In reply to May I make an attempt?, posted by rayww on March 6, 2004, at 13:28:02
My dear friend, Rayww,
As a true friend lays down her life for a friend, so you are willing to lay down your Psycho Babble Faith citizenship on my behalf!
I hear what you so eloquently said, in your attempt to clarify my dilemma. Thank you for that. However, I don't believe that the point was about how each of us can be "like Jesus" when we do His work here on earth, as in when we act as His hands and His feet (since those of us who follow Him are, after all, His Body).
The point I perceived was at attempt to lower Jesus from His unique status & divinity of God's only begotten Son, and to make Him into merely "one of many" of the founders of various religions and faith movements.
Jesus has no equal in that department. He didn't come to earth to establish a religion; religions are man's attempts to reach God. Jesus came here to do God's work of reaching us. Jesus is God in human flesh, coming down to our level, to reach us because we humans are innately unable to reach God on our own.
Rayww, I know that you know this, so the rest of this isn't particularly directed to you personally.
Jesus plainly told us how we are to respond to Him: in loving obedience to Him, loving God above all else, and loving our neighbors as ourselves. He told us in no uncertain terms Who He is, & how we are to follow Him. He didn't leave any room to redefine who He is, or to create another path that leads to Him. He clearly defined that path.
Anyone may choose their own path. But to speak contrary to Jesus & to still claim that their own path leads to Him isn't an option.
So, take your own path, choose your own way - you all have that freedom. But don't think that anyone can alter the reality of who Jesus is with a "new" definition of Him. He is who He is. He is God. Calling Him "one of many highly evolved Christed beings" is an insult to His nature and character.
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Dena on March 6, 2004, at 16:27:45
In reply to Sh'vet Upanishad II,17, posted by Jai Narayan on March 6, 2004, at 11:50:55
Dear Jai Narayan -
This poetic verse is beautiful. I like how it describes God, as being infused in all of creation. God being transcendent through all that He's blessed us with here on earth.
I sense in you a deep hunger to know God intimately. I could be wrong, of course, but it's what I sense when I read what you shared with us.
I know the God who is infused in His creation, but my deepest longing is to know Him more intimately. It's my heart-cry.
You mentioned once that you once belonged to a church (Catholic?) & that you once believed in absolute truth.
I'm curious, how did you come to leave that faith, & to embrace what you believe in now?
I realize that you might not trust me, nor wish to share such personal information on this board. I'm not trying to set you up to get blocked, nor to try to find a way to witness to you. If you were once in a church, chances are that you already heard, or were exposed to what I believe. But maybe not. We all hear things through our own filters. Sometimes what we hear is not what was said...
I am truly curious. I want to understand your journey from where you were to where you are.
Care to share?
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Jai Narayan on March 6, 2004, at 16:52:59
In reply to Re: Sh'vet Upanishad II,17 » Jai Narayan, posted by Dena on March 6, 2004, at 16:27:45
You are such a lovely person. I truely see your golden aura. I love seeing you on psycho babble. I hope you don't get blocked by anything you have said to me.
I am Christian as well as Sikh as well as Buddhist....I love all religions that lead to God. But when I try to define God it is an impossible task.
You are back and I celebrate your return. We have missed you.
I love responding to your posts but I fear my posts are hard for you. I am so sorry if I cause you difficutly. That is not my intention.
Peace Jai Narayan
Posted by Dena on March 6, 2004, at 16:56:01
In reply to Dear Sweet Dena, posted by Jai Narayan on March 6, 2004, at 16:52:59
Thank you, Jai, for your kind response.
I think I'd look good in a golden aura! I wonder if my children can see it, or if I just look like "Mom" to them? I hope no one confuses it with a halo - I couldn't keep up with that kind of pressure!
I also hope I don't get blocked, but que sera, sera.
If you ever feel like visitin me in my banishment, feel free to email: brehmites@aol.com
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2004, at 6:13:16
In reply to Dr. Bob All Others: My Refusal to Rephrase, posted by Dena on March 6, 2004, at 8:57:26
> You have asked me to rephrase this:
>
> "Jesus has no equal."
>
> What exactly are you asking me to do? Are you putting me in the position of choosing between denouncing who He is (the only Son of God)in order to satisfy the demands of this board, or holding to what I know to be true in order to remain on this board?No, I'm just asking you to word that differently.
> I'm not saying that other faiths, other belief systems, are inequal, or inferior. Everyone is entitled to have their very own special, unique system of faith - God allows it, why should I object? No one can claim that their faith is better than someone elses, & I'm not making that claim here.
OK, so how about:
> People of my faith believe that Jesus has no equal.
Which is one of the options spelled out at:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7889.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dena on March 8, 2004, at 10:19:46
In reply to Re: One Way to Rephrase » Dena, posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2004, at 6:13:16
Dr. Bob,
Yes, it's true that people of my faith believe that Jesus has no equal.
But people of my faith also recognize that it isn't our belief that determines the characteristics of Jesus.
He is who He is, regardless of what I or anyone else believes.
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Dena on March 8, 2004, at 13:24:29
I see that my explanation as to why I couldn't in good conscience rephrase "Jesus has no equal" has disappeared.
Why is that?
Shalom, Dena
Posted by rayww on March 8, 2004, at 13:45:33
In reply to Re: One Way to Rephrase » Dr. Bob, posted by Dena on March 8, 2004, at 10:19:46
Well said Dena. No matter what our belief, it does not alter who Christ is, but Bob is also right in the sense that each religion dictates who it conceives Christ, or its leader to be.
Posted by rayww on March 8, 2004, at 13:56:51
In reply to Where Did my Post Go?, posted by Dena on March 8, 2004, at 13:24:29
Maybe the Anti-Christian boogie man cast it into outer darkness. Have you ever wondered how dark dark can be? Just a question. So, here's a bit of a ramble on being cast out into outer darkness. :)
The risen Lord was witnessed by many, yet still the church does not fully comprehend the resurrection. The atonement would have no meaning were it not for the resurrection. We all will live again because of Jesus, whether we want to or not.
As is demonstrated in "The Passion", Satan wants to keep us for himself, so he spreads his lies abroad, lies that would have us believe that it does not matter if we don't keep the commandments of God. Don't believe him. Follow Jesus. Jesus is the one with the resurrected body. Satan will never even have an earthly body, will never be born, will never die, will never be resurrected. Therefore, once we pass all that, there will be no more Satan. He will be cast into outer darkness, a place where there is no light, forever. Do you know how dark dark can be? Choose light. Light is real. I can't even imagine a life without light.
rayww. btw, I liked your post, glad I was able to read it before the boogie man got it.
Posted by holymama on March 8, 2004, at 15:07:27
In reply to Where Did my Post Go?, posted by Dena on March 8, 2004, at 13:24:29
I was absolutely wondering the same thing, Dena, and I think an explanation is required here by someone to explain why that happened, since I think it was taken down for a reason. I thought that your post was such a beautiful defense and desription of your faith and love for Jesus, and I have been checking in frequently to see what kind of response it would get. I was (and am)proud or you for that post.
So where the heck did it go?
Autumn
Posted by gabbix2 on March 8, 2004, at 15:33:56
In reply to Re: Where Did my Post Go?, posted by holymama on March 8, 2004, at 15:07:27
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20040113/msgs/321062.html
Posted by Dena on March 8, 2004, at 17:12:25
In reply to Re: Where Did my Post Go?, posted by holymama on March 8, 2004, at 15:07:27
Dear Autumn Dawn -
Hello my friend. Thank you again for your support - I feel it way over here in Virginia!
I found the post. Even though I intentionally created it to be a "new thread" so that it wouldn't be missed, it's been relocated up to the thread where Dr. Bob asked me to rephrase. It makes logical sense that it would be there, but I thought it had been "banished". I'm glad it's been allowed to stay.
It was hard to find a way to rephrase it, without compromising either my personal faith, or the integrity of Jesus' identity. I did the best I could, & just left whether or not I'd be blocked in God's hands.
I wish I could convey how I have no intention of harming anyone else by putting down what they believe. And yet, I have to remain faithful to what God has taught me about Himself & His world, particularly through the Bible. It can be a dilemma at times. I don't have a superior attitude about my faith, as if because it's "mine" it's therefore a superior way to believe. What I believe in isn't defined by me, it's defined by God's revelation through the Bible, and especially through Jesus. Whether or not I believe it is immaterial... except for it's affect on me. God continues being God, regardless of whether or not anyone else believes in Him. I would be arrogant to think that my belief, my opinion, my personal definition, had any impact on His reality. He's gone in and out of vogue over the centuries, but He's still who He's always been.
I imagine that those who end up spending eternity with Him will all be a bit surprised about what was (& wasn't) true about Him. Myself included. I think we all have our own personal biases that may or may not be based on truth. I've had several of my own biases upended over the years - wherever God has touched one of my biases & shed His light of Truth on it, I've received deep healing. Letting go of that which I've held onto is hard, but the rewards are great!
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Dena on March 8, 2004, at 17:21:44
In reply to Re: One Way to Rephrase » Dena, posted by rayww on March 8, 2004, at 13:45:33
My dear friend Rayww -
Thank you for your kindness. I'm sure you understand the dilemma I was in. Such a fine line to walk...
I'd like to "tweak" something you said: "each religion dictates who it conceives Christ, or its leader to be."
Yes, I agree that each religion determines who Christ is to them. But I still maintain that He's firm in His identity as to who He truly is. Otherwise, there are then dozens, if not hundreds, of different "Christs" - each catering to contradicting definitions.
So, while each religion may define who He is to suit their own faith principles, I believe that He remains unaltered in His nature.
I know that if my own definition limits Him in any way, I will then be able to receive Him in a limited fashion. Only when I allow Him to be fully who He is, & to be willing to meet Him on His terms, will I be able to fully receive Him.
For myself, I recognize that I have erected many barriers to fully receiving Him. I see ways in which I continue to confuse Him with my earthly father (not cognitively, but subconsciously), and even holding my earthly father's wrong-doings against Him. I see ways in which I'm holding back from fully surrendering to Him, out of old fears that He "won't be there for me" if I completely rely on Him. My adult mind recognizes the foolishness of these fears, but the barrier remains, due to childhood experiences that shaped me. I've received some healing in certain areas & have felt that freedom come through. I have hope & faith that God will continue to do more healing work in me so that I can surrender more fully to Him.
Shalom, Dena
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