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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rayww on December 12, 2002, at 21:12:55
I got into this science/religion thing in my other post, but then deleted it because it was getting too wordy, but after I read the posts on the Admin board, I wish I'd kept it up. I think the science/religion topic is one worth looking at.
Sometimes things are said on the other board that discount faith. It's hard to argue with science, and who would want to? However, have you ever tried to sell your $160 text book to next year's college student? Lucky if you get $3.00. Why? Because it is out-dated as soon as it is written. Now, take the Bible............
I echo what Lou said in his final post on the Admin board. I've been out of town for a few days and am being pressed right now to take care of a few things, so I don't have much time. But there is one thing I would like to say, and I do hope I convince you all that this is true:
My favorite color is blue. Yes, blue is the best color of all. After all, the sky looks blue, the ocean, the lakes, rivers, and my eyes. Does saying this mean I look down upon all those who like pink or purple, or green? Does it infer that I think you are lower than I if you prefer yellow? My favorite smell is the smell of rain and fresh air. In fact, I believe in fresh air. I am thankful I live in big sky country where I can breathe fresh air. Do I pity or look down on those who live in smog? I used to live in smog and I pittied myself. I felt it was going to give me cancer. I couldn't wait to move out of it. I prefer to view life through a christ-focused lens. Does that mean I cannot respect you for choosing a Budda lens or an Athiest lens? My best friends are Athiests, Jews, Bible-bashing Christians, and Mormons.
So, enough of this picky poky. State your views and be done. Learn from Lou, me, Bob, and the others. Sort it out and figure out your own belief for yourself. Pick a little here and there, learn from everyone, choose what settles with you.
I wrote this in a hurry, so if I offended anyone, then just get un-offended because it wasn't intended. rayww
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 2:56:06
In reply to The truth about science, posted by rayww on December 12, 2002, at 21:12:55
You say you respect other viewws, yet in your earlier post you said that people without your views make worse choices in life...
I find this very contradictory.
Its ifne to state what you believe, but in theothe rpost, you didn;t say it was your point of view alone... you said other peoples lives were, vascially, worse for not having faith.
Just because science moves quickly, it doesn't mean it can be dismissed.. I have worked inheavily scientific areas, and worked with many christians. they were able to balance their christian views, with their scientific interests.
There are simply too many clues that point to evolution for me to dismiss it and accept the creation theory. I think that is th ebiggest stumbling block to me finding my faith...
Nikki
Posted by rayww on December 13, 2002, at 6:51:23
In reply to Re: The truth about science » rayww, posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 2:56:06
>There are simply too many clues that point to evolution for me to dismiss it and accept the creation theory. I think that is th ebiggest stumbling block to me finding my faith...
I too believe in evolution in that I don't believe God created anything outside of natural law. My personal opinion is that the earth evolved to a condition that was suitable for the survival of man, and "then" the first man, Adam, who mormons believe also helped create the earth, was somehow placed in the Garden of Eden, in an immortal state, or in a body not capable of death or suffering. A day in creation was equal to about one thousand years of our time. That gives plenty of time for evolution. I believe Adam and Eve were highly intelligent individuals, who spoke the Adamic tongue, and were taught the mysteries of creation while in the Garden of Eden. They walked and talked with God in the Garden. And so began the evolution of idea, as it was passed down from one generation to another. But, understanding was perfect in the beginning.
There are many questions, but there are also many answers. With the Millennium just around the corner, when all things that ever were will be revealed, we can look forward to answers and understanding that will explain all the missing links.
Actually, I believe that science will continue to discover truths about the creation until all is learned and understood. In the end science and religion will be the same, as it is now in the pure.
The earth itself continues to evolve. Even in the Bible we learn that during every 1000 year period since the time of Adam there has been major adjustments, from changing orbits, to land masses separating, to major earth quakes at the time of the crucifixion, and in the future, the millennium. We look forward with fear and trepidation to some of it, but in faith we have no fear. And, I suppose that is why faith is so important to our personal salvation. We must be found on the Lord's side when He comes.
I look forward with great anticipation and excitement to the future, regardless of depression, bipolar or otherwise.
I hope to be counted as one who believes in Christ, who understands the atonement, and who looks forward to His return - as He has promised. Will science have an explanation for the second coming of Christ? Therein lies the only question us mortals need concern ourselves about. Again, when the earth is right and ripe, He will come. Right, meaning His kingdom fitfully established, and ripe meaning evil as evil is possible. Please try to believe in Christ. I'm not saying to become a mormon. we try to set an example and light the way, do our best to establish a world-wide kingdom, be the salt thts all. As a popular carol this season says, we welcome him to our world.
my fear is that if i keep writing like this i will become an embarrassment to the church and to god. i don't want to be that. i don't want to swing too high and write too much, i can't evaluate myself, only by your words, nice or otherwise. but i'm a tough bird and not afraid to stand up for what i believe is right. jsut like you.
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2002, at 7:04:10
In reply to Re: The truth about science » rayww, posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 2:56:06
>
> There are simply too many clues that point to evolution for me to dismiss it and accept the creation theory. I think that is th ebiggest stumbling block to me finding my faith...
>
> NikkiHi Nikki,
Many religions do not find evolution incompatible with faith. Please don't let that be a stumbling block to whatever you choose to do.
And your experience of receiving bad advice from your pastor had nothing really to do with God or religion. It had to do with a man, a man who perhaps meant well but gave bad advice. The leaders of any churches make mistakes as they are no more or less human than the rest of us. And organized religions themselves have done things that God would not want associated with his name, because religions are run by man rather than directly by God. I have heard theories that the commandment of not taking the Lord's name in vain refer not so much to cursing as to doing wrong in the name of God.
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 8:01:08
In reply to Re: The truth about science » NikkiT2, posted by rayww on December 13, 2002, at 6:51:23
"With the Millennium just around the corner,"
Sorry.. i thought we had passed the Millenium... could you explain this...
nikki
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 8:03:04
In reply to Re: The truth about science » NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2002, at 7:04:10
Dinah,
I recounted that experience in attempt to say that faith does not always lead to better decisions, which is what was being said. Your post backs me up by saying that many things have been done in the name of faith that God would not approve of!
I just didn't make my point as well as you did :o)
Nikki
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2002, at 8:10:22
In reply to Re: The truth about science » rayww, posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 8:01:08
> "With the Millennium just around the corner,"
>
> Sorry.. i thought we had passed the Millenium... could you explain this...
>
> nikkiI believe it is a belief of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormon). If I remember correctly, it refers to the period of time when Christ will rule on earth, which is upcoming, rather than the period of time which has past since Christ's birth.
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 10:35:15
In reply to Re: The truth about science, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2002, at 8:10:22
Posted by rayww on December 13, 2002, at 14:46:28
In reply to Re: The truth about science, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2002, at 8:10:22
> > "With the Millennium just around the corner,"
> >
> > Sorry.. i thought we had passed the Millenium... could you explain this...
> >
> > nikki
>
> I believe it is a belief of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormon). If I remember correctly, it refers to the period of time when Christ will rule on earth, which is upcoming, rather than the period of time which has past since Christ's birth.I actually thought belief in the Millennium was a universal Christian belief. So, let me ask a question here. Do the other Christian religions believe in the second coming of Christ? If not to look forward to the 1000 years of peace where Christ will reign personally upon the earth, and govern it, where the lamb and the lion will play together, where death will be but a twinkling of the eye and life will go on, what is there to look forward to? There would be no hope of a brighter future for the earth without belief in the Millennium. The world has a bright future. The globe lives too. Every thing in the earth looks forward to that day. I'm in shock. I honestly thought it was a universal Christian belief.
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 16:43:22
In reply to Re: The truth about science » Dinah, posted by rayww on December 13, 2002, at 14:46:28
Hi rayww,
I attended the church of england (a protastent church) for a number of years, and was confirmed so had 5 months of confirmation study classes, and also attended a bible study group for 6 months. This was, honestly, the first I knew of this millenium!! I, have ofcourse, read about the second coming of christ, but I thought it purely.. well.. not hypothetical as such, but just a belief it may happen some time in the future. I didn't know this future would be within my life time!!
Could you point me in the direction of any info about when it may happen etc?
Thanks
Nikki
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2002, at 18:00:32
In reply to Re: The truth about science » Dinah, posted by rayww on December 13, 2002, at 14:46:28
I was raised (partly) in the Mormon faith, and to my knowledge the second coming of Christ is not seen in exactly the same way by other Christian churches. To be certain though, I'll check this Sunday.
But then again many churches have their own idea of what will happen during the second coming, and they're not all that close. Christians have been struggling with the idea since St. Paul and his generation thought the second coming would be in their lifetimes. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Posted by rayww on December 13, 2002, at 23:52:12
In reply to Re: The truth about science » rayww, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2002, at 18:00:32
I don't know that the world wants to believe in the Millennium because it would mean that righteousness wins and evil is overcome forever. In every dispensation the prophets have been hunted, tortured, and killed for teaching these things. Righteousness has not been popular in the earth since the beginning, just as it isn't popular today.
My opinion is that since this thousand years, beginning with the year 2000 is the 7th day, the Millennium will likely begin within the first century. My personal opinion is that it will happen within 24 years. I hesitate to get into this because most of what we understand concerning the millennium has come through modern revelation in the Doctrine & Covenants, and the Book of Mormon, and that concept offends mainstream Christianity, as Christians do not believe in revelation or in doubting, proving, or in searching for truth. They just believe. And that is good, but do modern Christians believe in Jesus Christ? And, if so, do they follow his path? Personally I don't find the power to do that in "I believe", rather in being and living (be-live) it.
I quote this from http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/emmain.asp?number=121
Christ taught his disciples to pray to the Father for the kingdom to come when his will would be done on earth as it is in heaven (Matt. 6:10). Jesus declared to them that he would be sent again by the Father at the end of the world for a day of judgment and an era of paradisiacal glory (cf. Matt. 25:3146; John 5:22-29; Acts 1:38). Some early Christians appear to have anticipated the second coming of Jesus Christ and the onset of the Millennium as imminent, despite the Savioŕs caution that none but the Father knew the time of his coming, and despite both angelic and apostolic pronouncements concerning events that must precede the Millennium (cf. Matt. 24; Acts 3:1921; 2 Thes. 2:14). Numerous church leaders in the Post-Apostolic (Patristic) period, such as Justin Martyr of Rome, Papias of Hierapolis, Irenaeus of Lyons, and Lactantius, accepted the notion of a literal Millennium following the resurrection of the dead, when a visible and glorious kingdom of Christ would exist on earth. By the late third and fourth centuries, however, church fathers such as Origen (d. c. A.D. 254) and Augustine (d. A.D. 429) had transformed the notion of a literal Millennium into an allegorical or figurative one: The millennial reign of peace for them took place in the hearts of individual men and women and began with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost (cf. Acts 2:1620). From that time until the sixteenth-century protestant reformation, belief in a literal Millennium was regarded as unorthodox by the institutional church.
John the Revelator saw that at the commencement of the Millennium a New Jerusalem would descend to earth from heaven. Traditional Christianity has generally associated this with a renewing of the city where Jesus ministered among the Jews during the meridian of time. ....From them laws, decrees, and leadership in the kingdom of God will emanate. Thus the nuances found in Isaiah 2:3 that "out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem" telling of two locations are not redundant or merely rhetorical.The Millennium symbolizes a sabbatical in human history (cf. D&C 77:12; Moses 7:64), analogous to the role of the weekly sabbath (cf. Ex. 20:811). The millennial period is patterned after the Lord́s period of rest following the six creative periods (cf. Gen. 2:13).
Life will go on for those on earth: "And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands" (Isa. 65:2122). Righteous mortal men and women who die after the beginning of the Millennium "shall not sleep in the earth, but shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye" (D&C 101:31), and children born in this era "shall grow up until they become old" (D&C 63:51; Isa. 65:20). The devil will have no "power to tempt any man," being bound because of the righteousness of the earth́s inhabitants, and children will grow up without sin (1 Ne. 22:26; D&C 43:3031; 45:58; 101:2831).
Posted by Dinah on December 14, 2002, at 4:05:51
In reply to Re: The not popular truth, posted by rayww on December 13, 2002, at 23:52:12
> I hesitate to get into this because most of what we understand concerning the millennium has come through modern revelation in the Doctrine & Covenants, and the Book of Mormon, and that concept offends mainstream Christianity, as Christians do not believe in revelation or in doubting, proving, or in searching for truth. They just believe.
My opinion would be that it just means that they just don't believe in these particular revelations. I don't think you can generalize from that that they don't believe in searching for the truth. That may be true of some non-Mormon Christians, and some Mormon Christians as well.
> And that is good, but do modern Christians believe in Jesus Christ? And, if so, do they follow his path? Personally I don't find the power to do that in "I believe", rather in being and living (be-live) it.
>Yes, I would say that most modern Christians believe in Jesus Christ and a good number try to follow his path. A fair number of non-Mormon Christians do their best to live their beliefs.
I have immense respect for the Mormon church. Some of my ancestors came over to Utah in handcarts, were driven from Nauvoo. But I also have respect for those of other faiths, Christian and otherwise. I also have respect for those of no particular religious persuasion who try to live a good life. And my recollection is that most of my Mormon friends did as well.
Posted by rayww on December 14, 2002, at 9:44:50
In reply to Re: The not popular truth » rayww, posted by Dinah on December 14, 2002, at 4:05:51
I made a mistake - I meant to say most "Christian religions". I joined a Christian Bible study group with some of my best friends who are excellent Christians, who worshipped the Lord with devotion, and whom I loved and learned a great deal from. I regard that as a peak experience in my life because I got to know and understand mainstream Christianity. I discovered soon into it that even though we were good friends, multi denomination didn't necessarily mean mormons. I don't know if I ever succeeded in convincing them that I was a Christian too. Sometimes what I write reflects the pain I felt in trying to become one with other Christians. I appologize if that is happening on this board.
>
> My opinion would be that it just means that they just don't believe in these particular revelations. I don't think you can generalize from that that they don't believe in searching for the truth. That may be true of some non-Mormon Christians, and some Mormon Christians as well.Truer words were never spoken. A Christian is a follower of Christ, and can belong to any or no religion. We no longer refer to the term "non-Mormon" in the church for that very reason.
>
> > And that is good, but do modern Christians believe in Jesus Christ? And, if so, do they follow his path? Personally I don't find the power to do that in "I believe", rather in being and living (be-live) it.
> >
>
> Yes, I would say that most modern Christians believe in Jesus Christ and a good number try to follow his path. A fair number of non-Mormon Christians do their best to live their beliefs.
>
> I have immense respect for the Mormon church. Some of my ancestors came over to Utah in handcarts, were driven from Nauvoo. But I also have respect for those of other faiths, Christian and otherwise. I also have respect for those of no particular religious persuasion who try to live a good life. And my recollection is that most of my Mormon friends did as well.Thanks Dinah. Not everyone would discuss this as openly as you have.
Posted by Dinah on December 14, 2002, at 10:01:44
In reply to Re: The not popular truth, posted by rayww on December 14, 2002, at 9:44:50
Now that pain I do understand, Ray. I remember the history class I took that said that Mormons were not Christians. I remember standing up and stating quite firmly that they were indeed Christian, and being able to back it up with my personal knowledge as a Mormon. I answered a lot of questions that day. I know that many Christian churches do not recognize Mormon baptism. And I'm sure that leads to defensiveness.
I've even seen some religious websites where there were huge flame wars going on between Mormons and other Christians, and I've seen books in the Christian bookstores about the Mormon faith that really make me feel sick. Because although I am no longer a Mormon, there are parts of me that will always be Mormon, ways of viewing the world that were taught to me when I was young.
But that's the beauty of this website. Dr. Bob won't, or rather shouldn't, allow one religion to put down another or say that their way is the only way, or the better way. You shouldn't have to feel defensive, because at this website, no one will be allowed to say anything against Mormons or Mormon beliefs. But I think you have to be equally careful to respect other Christian beliefs, Jewish beliefs, Muslim beliefs, Hindu beliefs, ancestor worship beliefs, etc. (and despite what even Dr. Bob might say, humanistic philosophical beliefs as well).
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 14, 2002, at 10:06:21
In reply to Re: The not popular truth, posted by rayww on December 13, 2002, at 23:52:12
> Sometimes things are said on the other board that discount faith. It's hard to argue with science, and who would want to? However, have you ever tried to sell your $160 text book to next year's college student? Lucky if you get $3.00. Why? Because it is out-dated as soon as it is written. Now, take the Bible............
It's fine, and in fact it's the idea here, to support faith, but please don't do so by discounting science, which could lead others to feel put down. Even if they have faith.
> I wrote this in a hurry, so if I offended anyone, then just get un-offended because it wasn't intended.
If you think you may offend someone, then please take more time to post. Not intending to offend isn't an excuse.
> I don't know that the world wants to believe in the Millennium because it would mean that righteousness wins and evil is overcome forever.
Please also don't imply that those who don't have a particular belief are evil.
> I hesitate to get into this because most of what we understand concerning the millennium has come through modern revelation and that concept offends mainstream Christianity, as Christians do not believe in revelation or in doubting, proving, or in searching for truth. They just believe. And that is good, but do modern Christians believe in Jesus Christ? And, if so, do they follow his path? Personally I don't find the power to do that in "I believe", rather in being and living (be-live) it.
Please respect the beliefs of others and don't post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down. I've asked you to be civil before, so now I'm blocking you from posting for a week.
Bob
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