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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tomatheus on July 15, 2015, at 17:35:38
Any thoughts on whether one of these forms of zinc (zinc gluconate or zinc picolinate) might be superior to the other? Has anyone here tried both forms and found one to be more effective than the other? Finally, any thoughts on which form would be better for helping to lower elevated free copper levels? If any of you feel that you could answer any of these questions, please feel free to do so.
Tomatheus
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 10, 2016, at 23:13:58
In reply to Zinc gluconate vs zinc picolinate, posted by Tomatheus on July 15, 2015, at 17:35:38
> Any thoughts on whether one of these forms of zinc (zinc gluconate or zinc picolinate) might be superior to the other? Has anyone here tried both forms and found one to be more effective than the other? Finally, any thoughts on which form would be better for helping to lower elevated free copper levels? If any of you feel that you could answer any of these questions, please feel free to do so.
>
> TomatheusIs there any reason to consider the possibility that you have Wilson's Disease? Have you been supplementing with copper in any form?
I don't know that I'd favour the zinc gluconate over the the picolinate, except that picolinic acid is a precursor for NAD+, and may help to transport zinc ions out of the gut. Both are equally effective in chelating zinc, and carrying it into the gut, where it can be transported across the intestinal lumen.
There are other more effective treatments for high copper blood levels, but zinc supplementation is certainly part of a maintenance treatment regime to maintain control over copper levels.
Lar
Posted by Tomatheus on March 11, 2016, at 2:34:12
In reply to Re: Zinc gluconate vs zinc picolinate » Tomatheus, posted by Larry Hoover on March 10, 2016, at 23:13:58
Larry,
Thank you for your reply. Other than the tests that I had done at an orthomolecular treatment facility in February 2013 that pointed to elevated free copper (a serum copper level of 112 ug/dL and a ceruloplasmin level of 20.2 mg/dL, resulting in a free copper percentage of 51.4 percent, as calculated by the orthomolecular doctor I saw), the only thing that I can think of that might point toward the possibility of Wilson's disease based on what I know about the disease is the fact that I experience ongoing tremors. I first experienced tremors when I started taking lithium carbonate in the fall of 2003, but the tremors didn't stop after I discontinued the medication around the summer of 2005. Taking Abilify from the spring of 2008 through October of last year seemed to bring on a different type of tremor, and as the case seemed to be with lithium, discontinuing the Abilify hasn't seemed to alleviate the tremor that began around the time I began taking the medication, at least so far. So, I have what seem to be two different types of tremors to contend with, and even though I tend to think that past medication use at least played a role in bringing the tremors out, I can only wonder if other factors might also be contributing to the tremors. I know that tremors are among the neurological symptoms of Wilson's disease, but I don't seem to have the other neurological symptoms of the disease or any of the liver-related symptoms, based on what I've gathered about the disease. The doctor at the orthomolecular treatment center that I visited in 2013 ordered a comprehensive metabolic panel blood test that included results for AST (SGOT) and ALT (SGPT), but those results (which I understand tend to come back as elevated in Wilson's disease patients with liver issues) came back normal, with respective numbers of 25 IU/L and 21 IU/L.
All in all, I tend to think that between my tremors, my psychiatric symptoms (mainly long-standing problems with fatigue and other depressive symptoms, as well as schizophrenia-spectrum symptoms that have seemed to align most closely with those of schizotypal personality disorder since late 2007 -- though I will say in retrospect that I was quite delusional during much of 2007), and the test results from my orthomolecular treatment center visit that pointed toward elevated free copper, being evaluated for Wilson's disease would make sense. There's a medical facility close to where I live that the Wilson's Disease Association has designated as a "Center of Excellence," and if I ever get the sleep-regulation problems that I experience under a sufficient amount of control so I can make the morning appointments that are available at the center I mentioned, I think that there's a good chance that I'll arrange to be evaluated there.
Regarding copper, no, I have not been supplementing with it at all any time recently. I don't even take a copper-containing multivitamin or any kind of multivitamin for that matter, so I don't ingest any copper other than what I get from food and from tap water. In either 2004 or 2005, I did try a copper supplement once, but I didn't take more than a single dose of the supplement because my problems with energy and other depressive symptoms intensified quite a bit for about a day or so after taking the supplement.
As far as zinc supplementation is concerned, I've actually taken both zinc picolinate and zinc gluconate since writing the post that you replied to here, and as a matter of fact, I'm still taking zinc gluconate. For whatever reason, I did not respond well to zinc picolinate when I tried it not too long ago. My schizophrenia-spectrum symptoms (specifically some of the perceptual issues that I contend with) worsened with a rather small amount of zinc picolinate (I think it was around 12.5 mg, but I don't remember for sure), and I also noticed a kind of strangeness that's difficult to describe other than to say that I seemed to be in quite a strange and uncomfortable state. I don't have either of these issues with zinc gluconate at 75 mg, although I'm not sure if the supplement is doing anything positive (or much of anything at all) at this point. In addition to taking zinc in the gluconate form, I'm currently taking vitamin D3, curcumin (in the BCM-95 form), monolaurin, and vitamin C. For now, I seem to be noticing some benefits from the supplements that I'm taking, especially as far as their effects on my energy, as well as my concentration and other cognitive-type symptoms are concerned, although figuring out which supplements might be benefiting me and which ones might not be benefiting me would probably only be something that I'd be able to accomplish by trying to go without each supplement that I'm taking for at least a little bit.
Anyway, I ended up writing more than I thought that I would with this response, but I think that I've now addressed the questions that you brought up. Thank you again for your response.
Tomatheus
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 12, 2016, at 19:32:54
In reply to Re: Zinc gluconate vs zinc picolinate » Larry Hoover, posted by Tomatheus on March 11, 2016, at 2:34:12
Your copper blood levels, if accurate, are well outside the normal range, according to a number of websites. The free copper percentage is normally around 5%, not over 50%.
I would suggest that you get your copper level reassessed. If you can find a different lab, that might be a good idea, also.
Your numbers are not consistent with Wilson's disease. At least we can eliminate that, if the same pattern is revealed in your new results. Wilson's patients have chronically low cerruloplasmin levels, which is at the heart of the disorder.
I did find a quick list of health conditions associated with hypercupremia (high blood copper levels). "Hypercupremia is found in primary biliary cirrhosis, primary sclerosing cholangitis, hemochromatosis, malignant diseases (including leukemia), thyrotoxicosis, and various infections. Serum copper concentrations are also elevated in patients taking contraceptives or estrogens and during pregnancy." Add inflammation to that list, too.
Your original test might not be accurate, so, I'd just get that test run again, as a starting point.
Best,
Lar
Posted by Tomatheus on March 12, 2016, at 20:55:51
In reply to Re: Zinc gluconate vs zinc picolinate » Tomatheus, posted by Larry Hoover on March 12, 2016, at 19:32:54
Larry,
Your recommendation to get my copper-related blood tests done again is a good one, I think. Although my serum copper level of 112 ug/dL seems to be pretty close to the middle of the reference interval (72 ug/dL to 166 ug/dL) that was included in my lab report, I think that there's no question that my free copper percentage seems to be well above what's considered to be normal. The quote that you included in your post mentioned various infections as being associated with hypercupremia, and I should point out that my white blood cell count came back as being elevated not only when the orthomolecular doctor that I saw in 2013 tested for it, but also every time I was hospitalized (and I had five hospitalizations between 2007 and 2012). I've had tests done for different infections on a couple of occasions, and no positive results came back either time, but I tend to think that something might be going on as far as a chronic infection is concerned, especially given that my white blood cell count test results always seem to come back as being elevated. Perhaps this might have some connection with the finding that my free copper percentage was quite elevated? I don't know. But I do think that seeing a doctor again and asking for my serum copper and ceruloplasmin levels to be checked for a second time would be a good idea. I think that I shall make arrangements to do just that.
Much thanks to you for your thoughts on this matter.
Tomatheus
Posted by Lamdage22 on March 22, 2016, at 16:00:46
In reply to Re: Zinc gluconate vs zinc picolinate » Larry Hoover, posted by Tomatheus on March 11, 2016, at 2:34:12
I doubt it really is doing something. Zinc deficiency is pretty much non-existent.
You may actually do something bad for your health by taking it.
Posted by Tomatheus on March 22, 2016, at 19:02:28
In reply to Re: Zinc gluconate vs zinc picolinate, posted by Lamdage22 on March 22, 2016, at 16:00:46
Lamdage22,
Thank you for your feedback. I'm not feeling comfortable sharing the details of my treatment online at this time, so I'm not going to comment any further on what role zinc might be playing as far as my treatment is concerned. I will say, though, that I never said that the reason why I was taking zinc was to correct a deficiency. My main reason for taking zinc was because it was recommended to me by a doctor at an orthomolecular treatment center following the results of testing that, among other things, showed that my percentage of "free" copper (or non-ceruloplasmin-bound copper) was elevated.
Tomatheus
Posted by Lamdage22 on March 23, 2016, at 4:36:51
In reply to Re: Zinc gluconate vs zinc picolinate » Lamdage22, posted by Tomatheus on March 22, 2016, at 19:02:28
i see
Posted by Lamdage22 on March 23, 2016, at 8:56:33
In reply to Re: Zinc gluconate vs zinc picolinate » Larry Hoover, posted by Tomatheus on March 12, 2016, at 20:55:51
But you dont drink tap water do you?
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 5, 2016, at 23:36:41
In reply to Re: Zinc gluconate vs zinc picolinate, posted by Lamdage22 on March 22, 2016, at 16:00:46
> I doubt it really is doing something. Zinc deficiency is pretty much non-existent.
>
> You may actually do something bad for your health by taking it.I'm going to have to disagree with you there, dude. Intake and uptake are not equivalent concepts.
Zinc is transported out of the small intestine via one of three transporters which have higher affinity for certain divalent cations (iron, copper, even calcium/magnesium) than they have for zinc. There is no zinc transporter, per se. Zinc is a hitch-hiker, always looking for a ride.
There are genetic variants in those transporter binding regions which do not favour zinc. One of my personal challenges in life was to recognize that my body did not efficiently transport zinc across my intestinal lumen. I need 30 mg a day of supplemental soluble zinc, to manage my deficiency symptoms. I do not know if that is enough to optimize my supply.
My case is obviously not useful for extrapolation to the general population. The issue I have is that you assume that it is unlikely for anyone to fit that profile.
Zinc deficiency is not rare, IMHO. It is, instead, rarely recognized.
Lar
This is the end of the thread.
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