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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 11, 2015, at 14:06:30
Hi.
What's the consensus on niacinamide for anxiety?
And what happens when it's reduced or stopped after regular use?
Posted by Tomatheus on January 11, 2015, at 15:35:06
In reply to Niacinamide - Tomatheus and others, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 11, 2015, at 14:06:30
Ed,
As far as I know, no randomized controlled trials have evaluated niacinamide's potential as a treatment for anxiety. I found a couple of case reports from the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine describing positive responses to niacinamide among patients with anxiety disorders, and links to those case reports are below:
http://www.orthomolecular.org/library/jom/2004/pdf/2004-v19n02-p104.pdf
http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/2005/pdf/2005-v20n03-p167.pdf
I wasn't able to find any information on niacinamide withdrawal. I think it's theoretically possible that withdrawal reactions to niacinamide (especially high-dose niacinamide) may occur, given that the vitamin has been described as having benzodiazepine-like properties, but again, I couldn't find any documented cases of patients experiencing withdrawal symptoms upon discontinuing niacinamide.
As an aside, I will say that I've noticed some relatively transient unpleasant effects (mainly what seems to be an exacerbation of my usual problems with energy and concentration) from lowering my niacin (nicotinic acid) dose. When I say that the effects were relatively transient, I mean that I only noticed them over the course of the day that followed after my dose reduction. My guess would be that my reaction to discontinuing niacin isn't very common since I haven't heard of it happening to anyone else, but I suppose it's possible that others have experienced it.
I will say that my knowledge of niacinamide's potential as a treatment for anxiety is limited and that others here may be able to offer their insights in this area. Please feel free to let me know, though, if you have any questions about what I've written.
Tomatheus
Posted by Hugh on January 12, 2015, at 7:43:59
In reply to Niacinamide - Tomatheus and others, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 11, 2015, at 14:06:30
I took it briefly a couple years ago when I was tapering lorazepam. I never made it to a high dose because it exacerbated my arrhythmia. (Many drugs and supplements have had this effect on me.) Since niacinamide is supposed to have benzo-like properties, I suppose it's possible that quitting it cold turkey or tapering too quickly could cause withdrawal.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 12, 2015, at 8:29:03
In reply to Re: Niacinamide - Tomatheus and others » ed_uk2010, posted by Tomatheus on January 11, 2015, at 15:35:06
Hi T,
Thanks for your reply. So it is niacin you take rather than nicotinamide? May I ask how much you take?
It seems to be unclear exactly what pharmacological activity mega dose of niacinamide produce....
Posted by Tomatheus on January 12, 2015, at 9:57:04
In reply to Re: Niacinamide - Tomatheus and others, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 12, 2015, at 8:29:03
Ed,
I'm currently taking 250 mg of niacin (nicotinic acid). I've taken up to 400 mg of the vitamin. When I tried 400 mg, I seemed to actually feel worse as far as my energy and concentration were concerned than how I felt at my next-highest dose of 300 mg, so I only stayed at 400 mg for a few days before lowering the dose to 300 mg. I've since reduced the dose to 250 mg, and I hope to eventually come off of it completely (although there never seems to be a good time to deal with the unpleasant effects that coming off of niacin seems to produce for me).
So, yeah, 400 mg of niacin is the most that I've taken. With the flushing that I experience from the vitamin, it's hard for me to imagine taking 3 g of niacin, which is what many proponents of orthomolecular psychiatry seem to advocate. Having said that, it's my understanding that the intensity of the niacin flush can vary from one individual to the next, so maybe the flush isn't so bad for some who take niacin, even at 3 g. Niacinamide, of course, isn't known to cause flushing, which may make taking large doses of the vitamin more feasible than it is for niacin.
Tomatheus
Posted by Christ_empowered on January 12, 2015, at 18:01:37
In reply to Re: Niacinamide - Tomatheus and others » ed_uk2010, posted by Tomatheus on January 12, 2015, at 9:57:04
I do Dr.Hoffer-style Orthomolecular, which includes a hefty dose (6grams/day) niacinamide. I use a time release tablet, 1.5 grams per tablet. I take 2 tablets AM, then 2 tablets PM, so...yeah...6 grams. I tried 9 grams, but it suppressed my appetite, which the old school OM people means you've ramped the dose up too high.
I like it. I mean, I still need meds for crazy, but it helps anxiety, tension, agitation. Some OM docs say it prevents TD, which is good for me (30mgs Abilify+2-4mgs/Risperidone when needed). Also...
...call it vanity if you want, but niacinamide has some side benefits, especially for the skin. I have early onset, relativley mild rosacea. I take good care of my skin now, but w/ the high dose niacinamide, my skin is healthier and the rosacea rarely pops up. Its used topically, 2-5%, for use on the skin. 2% makes a better moisturizer than vaseline, apparently. 5%=anti-acne, anti-rosacea, anti-wrinkling. Good stuff, and its cheap and all that...
...anyway, yeah. I still have to take the taurine (2-4 grams/day), but...I stay fairly serene, which is amazing, considering that I used to state mental hospital material. No twiches, eps, neuroleptic dysphoria to report. Makes sleep heavier, more restful; dreams seem a bit more vivd.
Good luck!
Posted by linkadge on January 15, 2015, at 19:27:01
In reply to Niacinamide - Tomatheus and others, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 11, 2015, at 14:06:30
Niacin (for me) has been a very useful treatment for anxiety. I tend to not take more than 50mg at a time. It goes well with omega-3.
Having done a bit of research myself, niacin can have neurotropic effects. It has been studied for stroke related regeneration.
Niacin has some common properties with mood stabilizers like Depakote. Namely, it is a HDAC inhibitor and GSK3 inhibitor (both of which have neurotrophic effects).
As mentioned, it appears to have some GABA regulating effects.
Its great for migraines and for promoting rational, independent, grounded thinking.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 17, 2015, at 15:18:30
In reply to Re: Niacinamide - Tomatheus and others, posted by Christ_empowered on January 12, 2015, at 18:01:37
Thanks everyone. Very useful information!
>I still have to take the taurine (2-4 grams/day)...
What effects do you notice from taurine C_E?
Posted by Christ_empowered on January 17, 2015, at 17:23:44
In reply to Re: Niacinamide - Tomatheus and others » Christ_empowered, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 17, 2015, at 15:18:30
hey, ed_uk...
...OK, I added taurine because I read a brief synopsis of this study (maybe 2, I forget) where they used 4 grams/day w/ an atypical (unnamed) for psychosis, and got good results. Also, there's some interest in taurine for anxiety, agitation, generall calm the hell down type stuff.
So, the taurine seems to smooth things out for me. Also, I ripped off this Loreal pill that they distribute in the UK and Europe, maybe elsewhere (just not the US)...Hair Mass. Taurine+zinc+green tea extract+grape seed extract. Its supposed to make your hair...well..better, slow down hair loss, etc. I coupled that (I used much higher doses than the loreal supplement) w/ soy isoflavones to see if I could drop Propecia and not lose more hair.
I'm happy to report...I'm calm, my psych meds work well w/o eps and such (I'm prone to eps and dysphoria), and my hair is awesome, all things considered. Seriously...that Loreal supplement (or my rip off of it) works quite well...my hair used to be not only thinning, but each strand was brittle and growing progressively thinner (I think that's typical of hair loss).
With the taurine and everything on board, my hair has thickened up nicely and its ridiculously glossy. The downside is that it grows crazy fast, so I'm getting hair cuts more frequently, lol.
On a more serious note...I've found that the combo of high dose niacinamide+varying amounts of taurine really calms me down. Over the long haul, I'd say its better than Klonopin was, and it may actually help, not hinder, my concentration. Also, like I wrote above, TD and EPS haven't popped up and my meds seem to work better...I get good control of paranoia, low moods, agitation, anxiety, psychosis, etc., and my concentration and ability to function in society is much better than before the Orthomolecular cocktail (Linus Pauling OM was centered on C; Abram Hoffer's was centered on B3).
Hope this helps.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 19, 2015, at 16:08:01
In reply to Re: Niacinamide - Tomatheus and others, posted by Christ_empowered on January 17, 2015, at 17:23:44
> hey, ed_uk...
Hello! :)
Thanks for your post.
About the niacinamide... do you think such huge doses are really necessary for most people? I was wondering whether smaller doses (but above the RDA) would help.
>...OK, I added taurine because I read a brief synopsis of this study (maybe 2, I forget) where they used 4 grams/dayHow quickly did you notice the effects of taurine C_E?
Thanks.
Posted by Christ_empowered on January 19, 2015, at 18:18:42
In reply to Re: Niacinamide - Tomatheus and others » Christ_empowered, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 19, 2015, at 16:08:01
ummm....well, the OM people use I think at least 1.5 grams/day for anxiety disorders, up to 10s of grams for psychotic disorders. In Hoffer's OM, when doing it long term, you should try to take as much C as B3. I take 12 grams time release C and 6 grams time release niacinamide. Hoffer claims that this reduces the risk of liver issues.
The taurine seems to help keep me calm. If I take 3-4 grams at once, at night, it has a soothing effect and helps lull me to sleep. Lower doses, taken consistently day after day, during the day, seem to help me stay fairly serene, without causing sedation. Taurine is supposed to do something on GABA, so I would assume that the mix of high dose niacinamdie and taurine has some synergy, plus I also take anticonvulsants.
Old school OM practitioners would use niacinamide in their cocktails to reduce the risk of TD. There's no solid research on it, save an observational study from the 60s into the early 80s that showed a very low TD rate w/ patients taking all sorts of old school drugs w/ a vitamin mix that included b6, niacinamide, E, C, etc.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 24, 2015, at 17:01:09
In reply to Re: Niacinamide - Tomatheus and others, posted by Christ_empowered on January 19, 2015, at 18:18:42
Thanks. Do you get any noticeable effects from taking such a high dose of vitamin C? I just take one 200mg tablet per day, in the AM.
> ummm....well, the OM people use I think at least 1.5 grams/day for anxiety disorders, up to 10s of grams for psychotic disorders. In Hoffer's OM, when doing it long term, you should try to take as much C as B3. I take 12 grams time release C and 6 grams time release niacinamide. Hoffer claims that this reduces the risk of liver issues.
>
> The taurine seems to help keep me calm. If I take 3-4 grams at once, at night, it has a soothing effect and helps lull me to sleep. Lower doses, taken consistently day after day, during the day, seem to help me stay fairly serene, without causing sedation. Taurine is supposed to do something on GABA, so I would assume that the mix of high dose niacinamdie and taurine has some synergy, plus I also take anticonvulsants.
>
> Old school OM practitioners would use niacinamide in their cocktails to reduce the risk of TD. There's no solid research on it, save an observational study from the 60s into the early 80s that showed a very low TD rate w/ patients taking all sorts of old school drugs w/ a vitamin mix that included b6, niacinamide, E, C, etc.
>
>
Posted by Christ_empowered on January 25, 2015, at 7:12:53
In reply to Re: Niacinamide - Tomatheus and others » Christ_empowered, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 24, 2015, at 17:01:09
The fairly massive vitamin C seems to help my allergies and related skin conditions and also seems to exert something of a mild tranquilizing effect. Its not that I don't get stressed, just that I don't have inappropriate freak outs in reaction to more or less normal stressors.
The OM people say that massive C doses (and 12grams/day to them isn't necessarily all that massive) have long term health benefits. Pauling wrote about reduced bladder and colon cancer risks. Hoffer used protocols a lot like mine both for psychiatric issues and as treatment for all sorts of cancers, with some success (some with conventional treatment, some in place of conventional treatment, and some when conventional treatment had left the patient utterly decimated).
Pauling, of course, focused on cardiovascular issues. Massive doses of C w/ B vitamins (and, with Pauling's system, lysine and I think proline) were seen as a helpful to the heart. I'm clearly in no position to make any arguments for or against OM for anything other than my own problems, which are mostly psychiatric, but...
...I've always been prone to hypertension. Stressed out, nervous disposition. Anyway, my BP is fairly normal, even under stress. This could be old school OM, or it could be the added taurine, which has been used in mega doses by some OM practitioners for cholesterol and hypertension issues.
I dunno...for me, the whole OM blend has proven beneficial because its calming/tranquilizing and also seems to help w/ medication side effects (no twitches, TD, stiff gait, etc.).
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 25, 2015, at 7:36:00
In reply to Re: Niacinamide - Tomatheus and others, posted by Christ_empowered on January 25, 2015, at 7:12:53
>The fairly massive vitamin C seems to help my allergies and related skin conditions and also seems to exert something of a mild tranquilizing effect. Its not that I don't get stressed, just that I don't have inappropriate freak outs in reaction to more or less normal stressors.
That's great. Can you separate out the effects of vit C from the niacinamide or did you always take them together?
How much has your BP gone down by the way, and what do you think is responsible?
Thanks CE.
Posted by Christ_empowered on January 25, 2015, at 8:48:49
In reply to Re: Niacinamide - Tomatheus and others » Christ_empowered, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 25, 2015, at 7:36:00
I awlays took C w/ the niacinamide, per the Hoffer protocol.
Niacinamide (oral and topical) can help rosacea and acne, so...maybe that's a big part of the reason my skin is doing better.
This is the end of the thread.
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