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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by iforgotmypassword on June 12, 2007, at 11:23:43
water4.net
they seem to have a product, but i don't know if it's actually serious, or legitimate. it has such a trace level of omega 3s i wonder if it's just a scam with some other oil. i don't want to or mean to smear them if they are legit tho. but at the cost, i would have to take almost half a bottle (40 capsules) each day it seems to get to the normal therapeutic range (at least judging from how much fish oil people take and is usually recommended), which would be a **ridiculous** amount of money and, from the lack of filtering, probably involve a huge intake of fats i don't want in me as well.
the composition of each potato starch capsule, is 25mg EPA and 90mg DHA out of 500mg (23% i think they said), apparently. they also said a 35% version was "in the pipeline", as was research for a "pharmaceutical grade" 70%, in some press release, but i don't know if that's actually true, as that may have been aimed mainly at the shareholders.
anyone have any idea if there is anything out there for vegetarians, or will be?
thanks.
Posted by Simon West on June 20, 2007, at 12:22:31
In reply to any serious source of veg. (algae) epa + dha?, posted by iforgotmypassword on June 12, 2007, at 11:23:43
We are responsible for the PR and marketing for V-Pure, (Water4) the only Algae, EPA & DHA supplement on the market today. I would like to clarify a few points following that extremely misleading post by iforgotmypassword.
The product is the highest concentration of EPA & DHA from an algae source on the market today. The recommended dose is 3 capsules a day with a combined EPA & DHA of 345mg, which is quite high, even in comparison to most fish oils. Water4 couldn't put the entire dose in one capsule, as it would be too big to swallow. So they have spread the dose over 3 caps. You should not compare the capsules strength, but recommended daily dose.
You mentioned that you would have to take 40 capsules per day to get the what you all a 'normal therapeutic range'. That is totally wrong. That would equate to 4600 mg. If you were to take that amount in a day - it would be very dangerous and very irresponsible. There are no RDA’s (Recommended daily allowance) for EPA & DHA at the moment but 500mg would be nearer the mark for a daily dose.
You also suggested that there are other fats within each capsule that you don’t need or want. That tends to be true with most fish oils. The other fats within V-Pure capsules are all beneficial to health. Water4 are selling an EPA & DHA supplement, so they are concentrating on these properties within the capsules and nothing else.
The production of Algae EPA & DHA is very expensive at the present time. Water4 have brought out a unique product that’s doing wonders for our environment and could one day help prevent the destruction of the world’s fish stocks. It’s alsoVegan, so a huge benefit to people that don’t eat fish and others with fish oil allergies. The price will come down in time when supply increases. Also, there are other products in development and these statements were not put out in order to just to please shareholders. Unfortunately, they’re taking longer to bring to market than was first anticipated.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 21, 2007, at 8:10:21
In reply to any serious source of veg. (algae) epa + dha?, posted by iforgotmypassword on June 12, 2007, at 11:23:43
> water4.net
>
> they seem to have a product, but i don't know if it's actually serious, or legitimate. it has such a trace level of omega 3s i wonder if it's just a scam with some other oil. i don't want to or mean to smear them if they are legit tho. but at the cost, i would have to take almost half a bottle (40 capsules) each day it seems to get to the normal therapeutic range (at least judging from how much fish oil people take and is usually recommended), which would be a **ridiculous** amount of money and, from the lack of filtering, probably involve a huge intake of fats i don't want in me as well.That's not a trace amount of omega-3 fatty acids. It's roughly 1/4 of the fats altogether. Considering there are dozens of different fatty acids that are produced by plants, this is actually an excellent plant source. Animals consuming these fats tend to accumulate the omega-3s for physiological reasons, which explains the higher concentration in e.g. some fishes, and marine mammals.
> the composition of each potato starch capsule, is 25mg EPA and 90mg DHA out of 500mg (23% i think they said), apparently. they also said a 35% version was "in the pipeline", as was research for a "pharmaceutical grade" 70%, in some press release, but i don't know if that's actually true, as that may have been aimed mainly at the shareholders.
>
> anyone have any idea if there is anything out there for vegetarians, or will be?
>
> thanks.The only thing unique about this product is that it claims any EPA. There has been an algae-based DHA supp on the market for a number of years, called Neuromins. It's a patented product, licensed for sale by a number of different vendors. See: http://www.iherb.com/Search.aspx?c=1&kw=neuromins for examples. There are other vendors, too. This was just an easy example to provide.
It is actually quite possible that Neuromins contains some EPA, but that they just didn't think it worth mentioning. Once the DHA gets into the food chain, back-conversion to EPA leads to the enhancement of that fat's concentration in e.g. fish oils. The same enzymes that would elongate EPA to DHA also do the reverse process. In humans, that is not believed to occur with high efficiency.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 21, 2007, at 8:45:37
In reply to Re: any serious source of veg. (algae) epa + dha?, posted by Simon West on June 20, 2007, at 12:22:31
> We are responsible for the PR and marketing for V-Pure, (Water4) the only Algae, EPA & DHA supplement on the market today. I would like to clarify a few points following that extremely misleading post by iforgotmypassword.
In turn, I'll do some clarifying of my own.
> The product is the highest concentration of EPA & DHA from an algae source on the market today.
Although literally true, Neuromins produces some products with higher total long-chain omega-3 concentrations....40%, vs. your 23%. The only novel feature of this product is that it has a low concentration of EPA.
> The recommended dose is 3 capsules a day with a combined EPA & DHA of 345mg, which is quite high, even in comparison to most fish oils.
One lone standard fish oil capsule (assuming the industry standard 1000 mg dose) contains roughly the same amount of omega-3s (and I'm not counting the other 18-, 20-, and 22-carbon omega-3s not found in algal sources). Moreover, many different products have far enhanced concentrations than those found in standard fish oils. The use of "most" in your description of fish oils should read "few, if any".
> Water4 couldn't put the entire dose in one capsule, as it would be too big to swallow. So they have spread the dose over 3 caps. You should not compare the capsules strength, but recommended daily dose.
True, daily dose is the issue, but your capsule size is arbitrary. Some people do find 1000 mg caps an annoyance, but I can swallow a dozen 1000 mg size at a shot. From a marketing perspective, isn't it true that you can appear to provide more actual product by supplying 60 smaller caps instead of 30 larger ones? The true measure is how many days a package will last, rather than the capsule size.
> You mentioned that you would have to take 40 capsules per day to get the what you all a 'normal therapeutic range'. That is totally wrong. That would equate to 4600 mg. If you were to take that amount in a day - it would be very dangerous and very irresponsible.
There is nothing at all dangerous about it, unless the subject is using coumadin or warfarin.
> There are no RDA’s (Recommended daily allowance) for EPA & DHA at the moment but 500mg would be nearer the mark for a daily dose.
I could write an essay right here, but let me simply say that RDA's are defined as the average daily intake to maintain health for 95% of normal healthy individuals. The term is irrelevant for people with existing deficiencies, or those with ill health requiring treatment.
> You also suggested that there are other fats within each capsule that you don’t need or want. That tends to be true with most fish oils. The other fats within V-Pure capsules are all beneficial to health.
No. No. No.
With the exception of fats created by the liver from carbs, all fats ultimately derive from plant sources. The marine food chain is entirely based on algal sources of fats. If a fat is in a fish, it came from algae. All fats are blends of various fatty acids, bonded to glycerol (triglycerides are three fatty acids hooked to one glycerine molecule). Most fats are burned as energy. Some special fats are retained for structural purposes. It's lovely to get the most concentrated dietary sources of special fats (e.g. the omega-3s), so as to not simultaneously have to deal with all the extra fat which would go to energy or storage. Fish are actually quite competent at burning off the other fatty acids, and retaining the omega-3s.
> Water4 are selling an EPA & DHA supplement, so they are concentrating on these properties within the capsules and nothing else.
Right. But what is the fatty acid profile of the remaining fats? They are simply the coextractives of the omega-3s, but I've seen no breakdown.
> The production of Algae EPA & DHA is very expensive at the present time. Water4 have brought out a unique product that’s doing wonders for our environment and could one day help prevent the destruction of the world’s fish stocks.
That is unbelievable. The destruction of fish stocks has nothing whatsoever to do with the production of fish oil. Crude fish oil is a world commodity, sold by the tonne, like wheat or soybeans. By far, the greatest use is for feed for farmed fish. Human consumption is quite trivial. To divert a tiny percentage of a market of a trivial amount of global commodity is not going to save the fisheries.
> It’s alsoVegan, so a huge benefit to people that don’t eat fish and others with fish oil allergies.
Fish oil allergies? All allergies are caused by proteins, and there is no detectable protein in properly prepared fish oil for human consumption.
> The price will come down in time when supply increases. Also, there are other products in development and these statements were not put out in order to just to please shareholders. Unfortunately, they’re taking longer to bring to market than was first anticipated.
Well, I suppose start-up costs for farming pond scum might be significant, but real expenses will be incurred if and when omega-3 concentrates are produced from your crude oil. I just don't see this stuff ever having a huge market. Purified fish oil and purified algal oil are chemically indistinguishable, with respect to their omega-3 fats (ignoring variability in proportions). There would be some differences in coextracted fatty acids, but we'll have to take a look at that if and when your firm supplies those data.
Lar
Posted by Simon West on June 22, 2007, at 10:34:18
In reply to Re: any serious source of veg. (algae) epa + dha? » Simon West, posted by Larry Hoover on June 21, 2007, at 8:45:37
Depletion of fish stocks; the market for omega 3 is approximately $ 2 billion per year and growing as manufacturers are including it in milk, butter, eggs, yoghurt , bread, etc. It is not a trivial figure.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,1801506,00.html
RDA’s not established but a good guide is below.
http://www.clo3.com/where_find_omega3/where_find_omega3_index.php
1000 mg of EPA & DHA is not a standard dose and there are not many products on the market with this kind of dosage. I say this again, the majority of fish oil supplements on the market contain less than 200mg DHA & EPA combined.
Some manufacturers promote their products by writing; 500mg or 1000mg capsules on the labels of their products, it’s the EPA & DHA that’s important. Not the size of the capsule.
And another point, you mentioned that ‘you don’t see this stuff ever catching on’. I think you had better keep you eyes open because it’s already happening.
V-Pure is due out in US retailers within the next couple of weeks.
Posted by iforgotmypassword on February 19, 2008, at 12:20:56
In reply to Re: any serious source of veg. (algae) epa + dha?, posted by Simon West on June 22, 2007, at 10:34:18
check out some medical journals on pubmed. the lowest they have tested and seen therapeutic gain for mood is 1 full gram of EPA.
you guys seriously have to innovate.
get to that 35% and further concentrations ASAP, or you're blowing off a major target market.
implying that 4-5 grams of EPA+DHA is dangerous is insulting. that is so obviously wrong.
as it stands with the current product, not many people would, but i might consider taking 9 or 10 pills four times a day (36-40/day) to get a therapeutic dose, but given the screwy information you are giving, and the crumby website, i worry about how professional this operation is. if i can really count on the pills reliably having the stated amounts of EPA and DHA.
there has been no word on the increasing concentrations either, which was supposed to be "in the pipeline." why nothing new, or any updates?
Posted by One World Day on September 15, 2011, at 3:26:55
In reply to Re: any serious source of veg. (algae) epa + dha? » Simon West, posted by Larry Hoover on June 21, 2007, at 8:45:37
Sir, Whilst I appreciate the importance of high strength long chain essential fats in treating emotional health, your bias towards fish oil and negativity towards algae is disconcerting.
As you quite rightly point out crude fish oil is big business - many of the products out there that could be bought off the shelf where most people shop
1)Are subject to problems of toxicity - we had a case in the UK where products had to be withdrawn by retailers due to levels of toxins a quick check on google will confirm this
2) do contribute to decline in fish stocks and thus potentially contribute to the demise of the sustainability and survival of the oceans delicate biochemical balance see the film 'Sea the Truth' for an explanation of what's happening in our seas and the desperate situation regarding acidification of our oceans as well as pollution and the effect on both biodiversity and our health.Your disingenuous slating of algae smacks of support for a greedy, corrupt, fishing industry that is set to destroy our planet rather than fighting for the best for patients.
Whilst the technology for algae is still in it's infancy it is fast supersceding fish oil as a therapeutic tool not just on purity and quality but on value for money and of course long term sustainability of our planet. Latest batch is 400mg of pure oil per dose
It is pure naivete to claim as you do that 'The destruction of fish stocks has nothing whatsoever to do with the production of fish oil.' You are either most desperately ill-informed or surely on the favoured guest list of the industrial fishing industry.
Again I refer you to the excellent work of the Sea First Foundation and the scientific evidence they provide for the unsustainability of fishing.
This is the end of the thread.
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