![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by davpet on January 17, 2006, at 18:17:01
5-HTP converts into serotonin which desensitises serotonin receptors . You then need more serotonin to get the same level of serotonin receptor activation . Benzo increases GABA desentsitising GABA .
Stop taking 5-HTP and your normal (lower) amount of serotonin is no longer able to activate your receptors = depression. Suddenly stop taking benzos and all hell will break lose.
When you first take 5-HTP alot of people experience the serotonin wave but this soon disappears, why is this? Simple serotonin receptor down-regulation
Posted by blueberry on January 17, 2006, at 18:17:01
In reply to 5-HTP IS AS BAD AS BENZOS, posted by davpet on January 16, 2006, at 5:18:45
This phenomenon does not always happen though. How would you explain that?
Specifically I'm thinking of real people here over the years who have done well for many years on a constant dose of a benzo. Another at 2 years on 5htp. Another at 4 years on St Johns Wort. Me at 5 years on prozac.
I don't know, but I think maybe the person's individual unique genetics guide whether the poopout phenomenon happens or not and how long it takes to happen if it happens.
It's just my own personal experience and opinion, but I think the brain is just way too complicated to try to outguess it or explain it or apply any general blanket statements to it that apply to all people.
> 5-HTP converts into serotonin which desensitises serotonin receptors . You then need more serotonin to get the same level of serotonin receptor activation . Benzo increases GABA desentsitising GABA .
>
> Stop taking 5-HTP and your normal (lower) amount of serotonin is no longer able to activate your receptors = depression. Suddenly stop taking benzos and all hell will break lose.
>
> When you first take 5-HTP alot of people experience the serotonin wave but this soon disappears, why is this? Simple serotonin receptor down-regulation
>
>
Posted by linkadge on January 17, 2006, at 18:17:01
In reply to Re: 5-HTP IS AS BAD AS BENZOS, posted by blueberry on January 16, 2006, at 6:49:01
The other thing to consider is the fact that serotonin receptor downregulation may be what is desired.
Researchers noticed that when serotonergic antidepressants were administered there was no immediate effect (even though receptor activation would take place immediately). It seemed that relief from depression too place about the same as receptor downregulation.
You have to remember that the serotonin deficiancy theory argues that certain serotonin recptors are upregulated due to overall lack of serotonin.
Also remember that downregulation does not mean desensitization.
Linkadge
Posted by rjlockhart on January 17, 2006, at 18:17:02
In reply to Re: 5-HTP IS AS BAD AS BENZOS, posted by blueberry on January 16, 2006, at 6:49:01
Serotoin for some reason is not really for me and, I feel i have to have Dopamine and some norephinephrine to feel control of life.
Serotonin makes me feel dull, some people say feeling well being, i have felt it, but didnt like it, i rather have more noradrenaline and be ready for something.
But man there is just not enough dopamine antidepressant drugs, reason being for abuse.
Does anyone understand why i am like this?
Posted by Phillipa on January 17, 2006, at 18:17:02
In reply to Re: I hate 5-HTP it dulls me out., posted by rjlockhart on January 16, 2006, at 15:59:07
Because you are Matt! The only genuine person in your body and we all react differently and require different meds. Love Mom Phillipa
Posted by 4WD on January 17, 2006, at 18:17:02
In reply to Re: 5-HTP IS AS BAD AS BENZOS, posted by linkadge on January 16, 2006, at 8:14:08
> The other thing to consider is the fact that serotonin receptor downregulation may be what is desired.
>
> Researchers noticed that when serotonergic antidepressants were administered there was no immediate effect (even though receptor activation would take place immediately). It seemed that relief from depression too place about the same as receptor downregulation.
>
> You have to remember that the serotonin deficiancy theory argues that certain serotonin recptors are upregulated due to overall lack of serotonin.
>
> Also remember that downregulation does not mean desensitization.
>
>
> LinkadgeWhy would downregulation of serotonin receptors (either immediately or long term) cause increased anxiety in some people? I thought serotonin was supposed to be the "calming" neurotransmitter.
Marsha
>
Posted by davpet on January 17, 2006, at 18:17:02
In reply to Re: 5-HTP IS AS BAD AS BENZOS » linkadge, posted by 4WD on January 16, 2006, at 21:52:56
> Why would downregulation of serotonin receptors (either immediately or long term) cause increased anxiety in some people? I thought serotonin was supposed to be the "calming" neurotransmitter.
Acutely, extra serotonin will make you feel better. However, in the long run if receptors are down-regrulated more serotonin is required to get the same level of activation ie. the amount you produce naturally is now insufficient and you get depressed and anxious.
Posted by linkadge on January 17, 2006, at 18:17:02
In reply to Re: 5-HTP IS AS BAD AS BENZOS » linkadge, posted by 4WD on January 16, 2006, at 21:52:56
>Why would downregulation of serotonin receptors
>(either immediately or long term) cause >increased anxiety in some people?Sorry, are you refering for the propensity for SSRI's to cause anxiety in certain people ? The notion that serotonin is a "calming neurotransmiiter" doesn't really make a lot of sence. Serotonin has different psychological effects depending on the receptor that is activated. 5-ht1a agonists such as buspar have anti-anxiety potential, although I have never heard of such an effect attributed to say LSD, a potent 5-ht2a agonist.
Its the same as dopamine. You couldn't classify it as an alerting neurotransmitter because it depends on the receptor that is involved. Stimulants calming hyperactive children points to the involvement of dopamine in the regulation of certain inhibitory circutry.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 17, 2006, at 18:17:02
In reply to Re: 5-HTP IS AS BAD AS BENZOS, posted by davpet on January 16, 2006, at 23:22:54
>Acutely, extra serotonin will make you feel >better. However, in the long run if receptors >are down-regrulated more serotonin is required >to get the same level of activation ie. the >amount you produce naturally is now insufficient >and you get depressed and anxious
You are basically saying that your brain will adapt to more serotonin. But the converse is also true, it will adapt to less serotonin. So you need to ask yourself what it more important, the level of the serotonin in the brain, or the downstream adaption that occurs as a result.Most people who take a serotonergic antidepressant do not feel acutely better. It usually takes a few months for a substantial effect to be achieved.
Linkadge
Posted by blueberry on January 17, 2006, at 21:45:53
In reply to Re: 5-HTP IS AS BAD AS BENZOS, posted by davpet on January 16, 2006, at 23:22:54
I don't find this statement to be true at all. But that's just me. "Acutely" extra serotonin absolutely does not make me feel better but makes me feel bad. When I stop it I feel better. Just the opposite of what you are claiming. And when I did stop it after a month at a high dose, I did not get depressed or anxious. I haven't actually heard of anyone saying they liked the way 5htp worked acutely. It's the longer term effects that make a difference after those receptors have re-regulated. It's exactly that regulation you are talking about that is often needed to treat the problem...they are out of regulation to begin with.
But the bottom line is everyone's chemistry and metabolism and wiring is so unique, that it is impossible to say this will do that or that will do this. It's much more complicated than that.
> Acutely, extra serotonin will make you feel better. However, in the long run if receptors are down-regrulated more serotonin is required to get the same level of activation ie. the amount you produce naturally is now insufficient and you get depressed and anxious.
>
>
>
Posted by laurie_lu on January 18, 2006, at 9:16:46
In reply to Re: 5-HTP IS AS BAD AS BENZOS » davpet, posted by blueberry on January 17, 2006, at 21:45:53
When I was diagnosed with dysthymia a couple years ago, my doc put me on Effexor XR. It was great in the beginning but eventually pooped out at the dosage of 150mg. I didn't want to increase the dose due to bothersome side effects I was experiencing. I tapered off Effexor carefully and my depression/anxiety was worse than before being on the drug.
I then began taking 5-HTP. 5-HTP was great for the first couple months but after one year it pooped out as well. Now my depression was back in full force. I tapered off the 5-HTP and began St. Johns Wort. Like the other things, SJW was helpful for about 3 months but after that, I was feeling so tired and depressed.
I've come to the conclusion, I was better off before ever being prescribed the Effexor and am worse now. I wonder if all the things I've tried to help my brain chemistry has had a harmful effect in the long run. Have I damaged my brain?? Now I'm flying solo on just vitamins and fish oil. I feel like crap and not sure where to go from here. I might take the suggestion and begin some Magnesium glycinate supplements and see what happens. I really don't think I should try any mind altering herbal things in the future. These are just my own personal observations.
Laurie
Posted by linkadge on January 18, 2006, at 18:30:56
In reply to Re: 5-HTP IS AS BAD AS BENZOS, posted by laurie_lu on January 18, 2006, at 9:16:46
Hey, certainly been in that frame of mind.
I'm sure I've damamged my brain with over 5 years pharmacudicals in my poor developing brain.
Anyhow, the first 6-8 months off the drugs are were the hardest. Vitamins and omega 3 can go a long way, but it really can take time for things to repair and start functioning well again.
Serotonergic neurons can be replaced. The growth factor BDNF, is trophic to the serotongeric system.
Get as much exercise as possable to keep BDNF high, take a sensable but high quality multivitamin, some fish oil, and any other supplement you find helps, and then just wait.
I have been improving in many ways. 10 months later, my cognition is improving. Small tasks are easier and less daunting. Sleep, energy and mood have all improved.
Antidepressants remap your whole brain. It takes time to undoe the dammage, but it will come back.
Linkadge
Posted by honeybee on January 25, 2006, at 11:56:31
In reply to Re: 5-HTP IS AS BAD AS BENZOS » laurie_lu, posted by linkadge on January 18, 2006, at 18:30:56
"The growth factor BDNF, is trophic to the serotongeric system."
What is this, and how does it factor into repairing one's brain, post ADs? I was on 150 mg of Effexor for five years, decided I wanted to go it on my own about 9 months ago, and have gradually and then suddenly imploded into the worst depression of my life. Granted, I wasn't--until the fallout--taking Omega-3s or specific vitamins, and during the entire time, I took milk thistle because of my paranoia about Effexor damaging my liver. But, really, what's the prognosis for putting it all back together?
Three weeks ago, I had to go back on ADs (30 mg of Cymbalta) and am super cross because of it, even though I can tell that I'm a) more functional, b) more articulate c) not grinding my mental gears all day d) able to eat again e) getting more and better sleep... etc. But I don't want to be on Anti-depressants any more!!!!
Anyway, end of rant. *Can* we repair our brains? *Does* being on antidepressants pose problems for the long term for people and rob people of the ability to climb out of depressive periods with their own biology?
honeybee
Posted by linkadge on January 25, 2006, at 15:18:46
In reply to Re: 5-HTP IS AS BAD AS BENZOS, posted by honeybee on January 25, 2006, at 11:56:31
>What is this, and how does it factor into >repairing one's brain, post ADs?
BDNF is a neuroprotective growth factor. In the presence of this growth factor, serotonergic neurons grow and regenerate. A different growth factor (GDNF) is trophic to the dopaminergic system. Experimentally administered GDNF has shown some remarkable effect in parkinson's disease.
New neurons are detected after injections of BDNF. BDNF also has antidepressant effect on its own. Injections of BDNF are generally as active in force swim tests as are conventional antidepressants.
How does this factor into depression ? Depressed subjects have detectably lower levels of BDNF, which would downregulate brain regneration and repair.
>I was on 150 mg of Effexor for five years, >decided I wanted to go it on my own about 9 >months ago, and have gradually and then suddenly >imploded into the worst depression of my life. >Granted, I wasn't--until the fallout--taking >Omega-3s or specific vitamins, and during the >entire time, I took milk thistle because of my >paranoia about Effexor damaging my liver. But, >really, what's the prognosis for putting it all >back together?Antidepressants are thought to work downstream by increasing the level of BDNF. But, most antidepressant compounds increase BDNF. Shock therapy, and exercise, both increase BDNF significantly, and in many cases more so than conventional antidepressants.
As far as brain repair goes, we are continually finding out that the brain has much more plasticity than once assumed. Dammaged neurons can regerate, and new ones can be formed. Exercise is probably the single most effective tool for brain repair. It increases several growth factors BDNF, GDNF, NGF, NT-3 etc.
>Anyway, end of rant. *Can* we repair our brains? >*Does* being on antidepressants pose problems >for the long term for people and rob people of >the ability to climb out of depressive periods >with their own biology?The short answer is that the brain is capable of self repair beyond what was previously assumed.
I believe that antidepressants do, in general, cause problems in the long term for depressive episodes. My only evidence of this is my own withdrawl. My withdrawl left me thrice as depressed as I was starting them.
I don't really know how to answer, "what are my alternatives?". For me, waiting it out has payed off some, but I know that may not be the answer for everybody.
Linkadge
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.