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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by verne on October 4, 2005, at 5:36:54
In reply to Re: ever tried Albizzia?, posted by nolvas on October 3, 2005, at 17:49:02
I searched for the last two hours and found few vendors offering albizzia. I found a couple sites that sold it in bulk (flower or bark) Most sites seem to carry it only as an ingredient in an herbal formula for respiratory ailments.
Anyway, I finally gave up and went back to Michael Tierra's (writer of the article you linked) site and ordered the extract. Normally I avoid alcohol extracts but I'm still checking out the other vendors who sell the powder.
iherb carries most of Michael Tierra's line of herbs but no sign of albizzia there. I queried them and await an answer.
Verne
Posted by nolvas on October 4, 2005, at 7:10:41
In reply to Re: ever tried Albizzia? » nolvas, posted by verne on October 4, 2005, at 5:36:54
Yeah I noticed that he promotes Albizzia in that article and yet doesn't carry it in his line of products.
Anyway after some research I found out Albizzia is known as Mimosa.
http://healthyherbs.about.com/cs/chinesepharmacop/a/aa022603.htm
and here is a site that sells it in bulk in various forms :)
So there should be plenty of places to find it, I don't know how good the quality is on the above site, but maybe it's worth buying from them.
Posted by verne on October 4, 2005, at 10:22:40
In reply to Re: ever tried Albizzia?, posted by nolvas on October 4, 2005, at 7:10:41
I went to Zooscape and they have a wide selection. I had a bad feeling about the site though (lack of any contact information beyond an 800# for example) and checked them out at ripoffreport.com
Zooscape has 4 complaints. A couple people even claim it's a Canadian "cross-border" scam.
I've dealt with too many vendors that bill before they ship, bill even if they don't have the item in stock, and bill the credit card even if they will never have it in stock.
I went through this with Vitacost which also has several complaints at ripoffreport and happens to carry albizzia. Vitacost often claims to have stuff they simply don't have and then plays a prolonged stalling game after they bill for it.
I found a great site in a neighboring state that carries powder extract but only sells to herbalists and other health professionals. It looked like I could order anyway but it rejected my attempt. (I was tired though)
Anyway, I bookmarked the sites I need to check out. I think one is a kind of herb grocery in Olympia, Washington, that sells it in bulk. Bag O'Bark or something.
Iherb.com thanked me for the suggestion and will try to get it.
Verne
Posted by verne on October 4, 2005, at 12:44:48
In reply to Re: ever tried Albizzia? » nolvas, posted by verne on October 4, 2005, at 10:22:40
I ordered the extract at Michael Tierra's site but since I prefer powdered forms I once again tried to purchase from a usa-based chinese herb site this morning and it went through. (of course, it hasn't been delivered yet but I've apparently paid for it) I'm a very needy person.
They offer what looks to be a high quality powder extract from Seven Forests. The link is: http://www.chineseherbs.net/china/shopKeywords.asp?page=search_res.html&filter_column=2&query_string=Albizzia+9
Beware, the site is awkward navigating. Their entire product list is a scroll down menu. You have to know what you're looking for and most of it looks chinese to me. (how odd)
Verne
Posted by nolvas on October 4, 2005, at 12:53:39
In reply to Albizzia Goose Hunt Success or Taming the Bizzia, posted by verne on October 4, 2005, at 12:44:48
Cool thanks for checking out Zooscape. I read on one site that planetary herbs will eventually stock Albizia.
I also checked out botanical sites and they say that Albizia is often spelt incorrectly with two z's.
I'm in UK so it's a hassle ordering from USA, pay the shipping etc and then find out the product isn't all it's cracked up to be. So I look forward to your search.
The tea I have from Birt and Tang contains Albizia (spelt with two z's hehe) and in total contains 14 herbs, so even though it's reasonably relaxing I don't have a clue what works in it. So I look forward to finding a good quality supplement of Albizia.
you can get stripped bark here although I don't know how you would go about preparing it.
http://www.ethnogarden.com/cart/index.pl/catid_79/proid_222
As far as I can tell Mimosa Hostilis is Albizia.
Posted by verne on October 4, 2005, at 13:09:32
In reply to Re: Albizzia Goose Hunt Success or Taming the Bizz, posted by nolvas on October 4, 2005, at 12:53:39
I noticed the bark for sale at a couple alternative "headshops" like shaman.net I usually shop at iamshaman.com but haven't even checked there. I'm amazed I overlooked it since I've tried just about all the alternative "highs".
At the shop where I ordered the powdered supplement, they take PayPal and credit cards. International shipping is only $10.00. (I paid $5.00 and I'm in a neighboring state. I think they are in Minnesota. I usually trust shops from Minnesota and shy away from sites based in Florida, Utah, NY, and other scam magnets - don't know what it is about Florida but it is one of the worst) The prices seemed reasonable considering Seven Forests is a top-notch brand and you can buy the larger size at a discount.
The above paragraph violates the spirit of the parenthesis and has been disassembled into its smallest emoticonic parts ('') as a warning to passing posters.
Verne
Posted by nolvas on October 4, 2005, at 20:49:56
In reply to Re: ever tried Albizzia? » nolvas, posted by verne on October 4, 2005, at 10:22:40
I was rather puzzled by the name of the product Albizzia 9, so I checked elsewhere and found out that it's a formula of 9 herbs and not pure Albizia unfortunately.
http://www.richters.com/newdisplay.cgi?page=./QandA/Chinese/20040519-3.html&cart_id=7516017.23612
Posted by verne on October 4, 2005, at 21:42:39
In reply to Re: ever tried Albizzia?, posted by nolvas on October 4, 2005, at 20:49:56
Wow, nolvas, what a great link! I could have searched for ages and not found anything as good. I didn't know it was a 9-herb formula. You did some great research. Thanks loads.
I already ordered the Seven Forests formula but it may be just what I need. I'm still checking out a bulk chinese herb place where they sell the flowers and bark by the pound at a very reasonable price. I'm just not sure how to prepare them in the raw state. Who knows though, the more primitive forms may contain alkaloids and whatnot that don't survive the extraction process.
My "lab" is quite simple. If it's a powder I measure it and gulp it down with some liquid. If it's bark and looks like it could benefit from heating, I'll make a tea. Extracting is so messy I avoid it. I still have burned kratom leaves at the bottom of one pan I forgot about.
I'm still a little light-headed 4 days after ingesting about 50 grams of premium kratom powder, and another 25 or so in tea extractions. I guess I exceeded the dose. Never again.
Even if Albizia doesn't discernibly help, I doubt it will hurt me the way Kratom did. Kratom is more a poison than a "medicine".
I live in a small town that's home to Maharishi International University and center of the TM movement in the USA. It's also a center for ayurvedic and alternative medicine. They even have an ayurvedic spa.
I'm sure I could get Albizia locally but I would have to pay for accompanying treatment and their high markups. Very expensive. So I do my mad, self-help, experimentation.
Verne
Posted by nolvas on October 5, 2005, at 7:39:07
In reply to Thanks » nolvas, posted by verne on October 4, 2005, at 21:42:39
I've been looking at Mimosa Hostilis a bit more and it doesn't seem to be the same as Albizia. Mimosa Hostilis seems to be used along with an MAOI to produce strong psychedelic effects like DMT. Which is not what I'm looking for heh.
Albizia seems to be difficult to find on it's own an d just referred to as Mimosa. Planet herbs won't ship internationally either.
I've also found this study done this year >
Jung JW, Cho JH, Ahn NY, Oh HR, Kim SY, Jang CG, Ryu JH
Effect of chronic Albizzia julibrissin treatment on 5-hydroxytryptamine1A receptors in rat brain.
Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 2005 May;81(1):205-10.
Quantitative receptor autoradiography and behavioral studies were employed to investigate whether the aqueous extract of Albizzia julibrissin (AEAJ) specifically targets serotonergic systems in rat brain. AEAJ was orally administered at 50 and 200 mg/kg to adult male SD rats for 7 days. Treatment with AEAJ (200 mg/kg) significantly increased time-spent in open arms and the number of open arm entries in an elevated plus-maze (EPM) versus saline controls (P<0.05). Moreover, those effects of AEAJ were blocked by WAY 100635, a 5-HT1A receptor antagonist. Following behavioral evaluation, the binding of [3H]8-hyroxy-2-(di-n-propylamino) tertalin ([3H]8-OH-DPAT) to 5-HT1A receptors in rat brain was investigated. [3H]8-OH-DPAT binding after AEAJ (200 mg/kg) treatment showed a marked increase in the frontal cortex, hippocampus (CA2 and CA3 regions) and in the lateral septum versus vehicle-treated controls. No changes of [3H]8-OH-DPAT binding were observed in the caudate putamen, dentate gyrus and CA1 areas of the hippocampus or in the hypothalamus. In the dorsal raphe region, [3H]8-OH-DPAT binding was significantly reduced by AEAJ (50 mg/kg) treatment but was unchanged by AEAJ (200 mg/kg). These results suggest that the anxiolytic-like effect of A. julibrissin is mediated by the changes of serotonergic nervous system, especially 5-HT1A receptors.
So I see growing evidence that Albizia is useful in treating depressive and anxious states. It appears from that study that it's a 5HT1a agonist. I've also read studies that say it works on Gaba system in the brain as well. That's why these type of herbs are so interesting. Where as conventional drugs usually target one or two receptor systems in the brain, herbs can affect a variety of receptors in a synergistic way, that as of yet no pharmaceutical drug is capable of.This page is very informative and interesting regarding Serotonin receptors and Anxiety.
http://www.acnp.org/g4/GN401000125/CH123.html
Posted by verne on October 5, 2005, at 20:40:03
In reply to Re: Thanks, posted by nolvas on October 5, 2005, at 7:39:07
Here's a store in Olympia, Washington that ships to the UK. They sell bulk flowers and bark. http://www.1stchineseherbs.com/
I've read that the flowers are the best part. Perhaps, a mixture would be good.
I couldn't find any complaints about 1st Chinese Herbs and the site looks kosher so I will probably order a pound of the bark and pound of the flowers. I'll test the waters and let you know whether I have any problems with this vendor.
Even though I've already ordered the powder and Tierra extract elsewhere, I'd like to experiment with the bulk flowers and bark. In the end, that could be the most affordable way to prepare it. I'm putting the cart before the horse - but that's the usual way I travel.
Another online store offers albizzia only in what's called the "Ant" formula. It is very popular and the rage in the bigger cities in China among young people. Also popular at workout gyms. I came across this "ant" formula at a few places - must be an ancient recipe.
Verne
Posted by nolvas on October 5, 2005, at 21:49:49
In reply to Bulk Herb Store » nolvas, posted by verne on October 5, 2005, at 20:40:03
Excellent. I will probably try the powder. I've never prepared raw plant materials before so I wouldn't know how to prepare the flower or bark.
Let us know of your experimentation with the various forms of Albizia and good luck :)
Posted by verne on October 6, 2005, at 18:40:55
In reply to Re: Bulk Herb Store, posted by nolvas on October 5, 2005, at 21:49:49
The Tierra Albizzia Extract arrived today. It's made by "East West Herbs" of Santa Cruz, CA, for planetherbs.com Albizzia is spelled with two "z's". Besides a proprietary blend of flowers and bark at 1:2 "herb strength ratio", it contains 50% grain alcohol.
The recommended dose is 12-60 drops 3X a day. After letting it air for an hour (in the hope the alcohol evaporates) I ingested 120 drops in some filtered water. (I have a reverse osmosis system)
Being already tired, I took a nap. I seemed to dream more than usual and woke up refreshed but slightly agitated. But within 15 minutes after a cup of coffee I felt fine. Hours later I still feel a calming effect - yet it's not too sedating.
I used to do a lot of acid in my youth and when I take strong herbs or medicines, I'm practically tripping again. Albizzia also triggers this LSD effect. Feels great.
Acid was always stimulating and a great anti-depressant. The main feature though is that everything appears to vibrate or melt and even space itself seems palpable.
Of course I don't recommend LSD. I took huge doses in the early 70's while I lived in Europe. (Germany and Spain mostly) Anyway, when I returned to the states, the acid I tried in the late 70's and early 80's, was usually awful. The quality was so unreliable I gave it up. It didn't help that it was illegal either.
Anyway, albizzia definitely trips those circuits. I took another 100 drop dose about 20 minutes going and I'm flying right now. Very smooth and everything is dancing. NO body load at all - very clean, mostly in the head, although I do feel waves of pleasure through my body that seem to well up from my lower chakras. Energizing without being agitating.
So far I be liking this. (P.S. is it a myth that the alcohol evaporates when the extract is exposed to the air?)
Verne
Posted by verne on October 7, 2005, at 12:16:51
In reply to Extract Arrove » nolvas, posted by verne on October 6, 2005, at 18:40:55
I may have to lower the dose. I've noticed a slight "hangover" hours after a dose of 200 plus drops. Perhaps, less is better. I hope I'm not getting a buzz from the alcohol and it sabtotages my efforts to stay sober (79 days or so)
I've noticed the same sort of slight headache when I take too much SSRI's or S-ame. Dreams become somewhat unpleasant and I wake up feeling a bit wore out, as though I've just been in some sort of prolonged struggle. I tose and turn more in my sleep and wake up with bed impressions in the wildest places. At really high doses I've woke up in the hall. (sleepwalking is very rare though)
I think I read somewhere that I should give it 4-6 weeks so I shouldn't expect miraculous results right off.
I'm backing out of throttle and going with 30 drops 3X per day. They recommend anywhere from 45-180 drops per day so 90 would be a modest dose.
Verne
Posted by nolvas on October 7, 2005, at 16:39:27
In reply to Extract Dose, posted by verne on October 7, 2005, at 12:16:51
I would be interested to see if this extract has an anxiolytic effect and how strong it is, and also whether there is any rebound anxiety from stopping after a number days or weeks usage.
Posted by verne on October 7, 2005, at 22:00:40
In reply to Re: Extract Dose, posted by nolvas on October 7, 2005, at 16:39:27
Still noticing a slight headache in the temple area a few hours after each dose. I'm hoping it's just a reaction to the extract form.
I've had a problem with other alcohol extracts yet was able to benefit from the powdered variety. It reminds me of an allergic reaction. Perhaps, I'm allergic to grain alcohol. For now I've stopped taking the extract.
So the jury is still out until the Seven Forests formula arrives. If that goes well, I may order the bulk herb from that store in Washington state and try albizzia by itself.
Another wrinkle, is that I haven't felt right, or fully recovered from the kratom overdose. I had a pronounced headache for 3-4 days. I, as a rule, don't get headaches. When I was coping with the kratom hangover I bought some advil and aspirin.
I rarely take pain relievers of any kind. What's strange is that the aspirin made the headache worse. Now I'm afraid to take anything for it. What sort of headache gets worse with anti-inflammatories?
Verne
Posted by nolvas on October 8, 2005, at 21:02:35
In reply to Re: Extract Dose, posted by verne on October 7, 2005, at 22:00:40
OK :) Will be interesting to find out more about this plant.
Posted by Declan on October 9, 2005, at 3:08:37
In reply to Re: Albizzia Goose Hunt Success or Taming the Bizz, posted by nolvas on October 4, 2005, at 12:53:39
Is mimosa hostilis albizzia? But what about albizzia lebeck?
I've taken albizzia with baical scullcap for allergies/rhinitis/sinus etc. A couple of grams a day.
There's an effect on conciousness?
Declan
Posted by nolvas on October 9, 2005, at 6:35:47
In reply to Re: Albizzia Goose Hunt Success or Taming the Bizz, posted by Declan on October 9, 2005, at 3:08:37
Albizia julibrissin is the plant I was looking at, it's also known as Mimosa, but Mimosa Hostilis seems to be a different plant with psychoactive properties. If you believe the 'hype' then Albizia julbrissin seems to be very good for treating anxiety and depressive disorders. There are other species of Albizia but only the one I mentioned has been cited as one of the best plant treatments for anxiety and depression.
I intend to test it like Verne who has the headstart on me by ordering various forms of Albizia (poweder, liquid etc). I'm wondering if there's any nasty rebound anxiety and other side effects. There is evidence and studies done on this plant so it seems promising.
Posted by Declan on October 9, 2005, at 19:49:46
In reply to Re: Albizzia Goose Hunt Success or Taming the Bizz, posted by nolvas on October 9, 2005, at 6:35:47
Where does the hostilis come from? Maybe it's thorny? Nothing to do with how it makes you feel?
Declan
Posted by nolvas on October 9, 2005, at 20:31:17
In reply to Re: Albizzia Goose Hunt Success or Taming the Bizz, posted by Declan on October 9, 2005, at 19:49:46
Well this looks to answer the question over Albizia and Mimosa Hostilis, they aren't the same thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimosa
"The name Mimosa has also been misapplied to several other related species with similar pinnate or bipinnate leaves, most commonly to Albizia julibrissin (Silk Tree) and Acacia dealbata (Silver Wattle)."
Posted by verne on October 9, 2005, at 21:22:57
In reply to Re: Albizzia Goose Hunt Success or Taming the Bizz, posted by nolvas on October 9, 2005, at 20:31:17
I noticed that mimosa hostilis has been discontinued at my favorite online shop due to a legal precaution.
I've been thinking about trying calamus root. I think an ayurvedic doctor once even prescribed some for me but I was afraid to take it at the time. Seem to remember FDA warnings.
Anyway, here's a list of "alternative" herbs. Any experiences or suggestions? I'm running out of experiment material and wondering what to try next.
http://www.iamshaman.com/botanicals.htm
Verne
Posted by Declan on October 9, 2005, at 23:32:32
In reply to Re: Albizzia Goose Hunt Success or Taming the Bizz, posted by verne on October 9, 2005, at 21:22:57
Is calamus Blue Flag? It seemed worth a shot. That is almost prohibited.
But what I bought that *was* a good idea was a khat plant. Still legal, unlike the dried leaf from it. Minor amphetamine type effect.
Declan
Posted by verne on October 10, 2005, at 0:29:40
In reply to Re: Albizzia Goose Hunt Success or Taming the Bizz, posted by Declan on October 9, 2005, at 23:32:32
The iamshaman site is down or the link I provided is bad. I think the calamus root also had the word acornus attached somewhere. Not sure about blue flag.
I'm thinking about buying the raw root. A one inch chunk is good for energy, two for the nerves, and five for astral travel.
I haven't tried khat. I decided against it for some reason; perhaps, I thought it would be too stimulating.
My concern with any of these alternative rogue herbs is toxicity. I have only one liver to give to my herbalist.
Verne
Posted by Declan on October 10, 2005, at 1:22:16
In reply to Re: Albizzia Goose Hunt Success or Taming the Bizz, posted by verne on October 10, 2005, at 0:29:40
Yeah, I think it must be blue flag unless my memory deceives me.
Khat's too weak to be overstimulating. The surprise is that it actually feels nice. That clean clear feeling one associates with drugs of abuse.
Declan
Posted by verne on October 12, 2005, at 22:26:23
In reply to Re: Extract Dose, posted by nolvas on October 8, 2005, at 21:02:35
The Albizza 9 formula arrived yesterday morning and the jury is still out.
Mainly, because I'm so sick with a cold (borderline flu) I can't evaluate it. That said, it seems to have a smooth calming effect without being sedating. It sure has the extract beat.
I was a little disappointed it comes in hard tablet form. I'm used to buying capsules whenever possible since I'm not sure I even digest tablets any more. I once found a digestive enzyme tablet at the bottom of the toilet - it had gone right through me.
At least the tablets come in a nice oblong shape for easy swallowing.
The label reveals that it comes from Holland, although Portland Oregon is mentioned too. I grew up in Portland and remember it has one or two herbalist colleges. Oregon has always been big on herbs. Too many fleas and neo pseudo-hippies though.
I copied the page you provided with details about each herb in Alb 9. When I'm feeling better I hope to study it.
Verne
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