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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by linkadge on April 28, 2005, at 9:10:27
In reply to Re: Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!!, posted by JayDee on April 27, 2005, at 21:29:19
Yeah, I know. In most health food stores I've only been able to find L-phenylalanine. I came across one that say on the package DL-phenylalanine.
It could be a typo ??!!
That doesn't sound right
Linkadge
Posted by teejay on April 28, 2005, at 20:35:14
In reply to Re: Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!!, posted by linkadge on April 28, 2005, at 9:10:27
Hi linkage,
I think you've got a bit confused here with two very similarly sounding chemicals (it had me going too till I did a google to sort the differences out).
Phenylalanine in both its L and DL forms is an amino acid but PEA is phenylethylamine which I think is in chocolate and gives some people the feel good factor when they eat it.
Some interesting stuff on the net if you put Phenylethylamine into google. Seems to be quite a potent and long lasting anti-depressant according to some studies and reports.
Glad its got you on the up anyway :-))
Teejay
Posted by linkadge on April 29, 2005, at 8:03:23
In reply to Re: Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!! » linkadge, posted by teejay on April 28, 2005, at 20:35:14
Cool,
I am in accordance now.
I understand that the D form of the amino acid converts to PEA more readily than does the L form?
Linkadge
Posted by Declan on May 2, 2005, at 0:36:33
In reply to Re: Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!!, posted by linkadge on April 27, 2005, at 21:01:35
I once went on a course of polygonum multiflorum. That's Fo Ti isn't it? It smelled unusual, a little like roast pork maybe?....its a long time ago. But I never took either DLPA or PEA with it. I didn't notice anything that I can remember from it. You still taking this? But whenever I get my dose of deprenyl and DLPA high enough to help much it disrupts my sleep.
Declan
Posted by joebob on May 2, 2005, at 12:21:35
In reply to Re: Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!!, posted by linkadge on April 23, 2005, at 14:52:12
Posted by JLxx on May 3, 2005, at 17:05:30
In reply to what brand of PEA....can't find it on the web (nm) » linkadge, posted by joebob on May 2, 2005, at 12:21:35
None of the links below are converting (?). What a drag! I put them each on a separate line so they're easier to copy/paste.
I found this, said to be PEA but it's actually derived from blue green algae apparently:
http://www.supersmart.com/dev/productdetail.php?lang=eng&id=617
This is the other product they recommend there, which is PEA, plus Mucuna pruriens extract, Bacopa monnieri, Ginkgo biloba, Siberian Ginseng:
http://www.supersmart.com/dev/productdetail.php?id=474
That is a European site apparently. According to their blurb, 10 mg of PEA is needed to relieve depression.
You can get the blue green algae called Blue Manna containing PEA as well as phycocyanin which apparently is a COX-2 inhibitor:
Blue Manna:
There's 8-12 mg per gram they say. Another site:
http://www.naturalzing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=353
One third teaspoon provides 8 mg, they say, so, 62.5 servings per container.
Ancient Sun is the company that makes it, and they also have capsules as well as bulk amounts:
http://www.ancientsunnutrition.com/
PubMed on phycocyanin COX-2 inhibitor, 4 studies listed:
There are other sources of blue green algae as well as more info on the web.
Here's an article on blue-green algae on Quakwatch:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/algae.html
Assessing Potential Health Risks from Microcystin Toxins in Blue-Green Algae Dietary Supplements
http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2000/108p435-439gilroy/gilroy-full.html
"Although less is known about the possible health effects from exposure to lower doses of microcystins, there is increasing concern that chronic exposure to low levels may also pose a significant health risk. Potential tumor promotion is a primary concern...
Continuous low-level exposure to microcystins may also result in hepatic accumulation. Studies have shown that, once taken up by the liver, microcystin excretion occurs very slowly...
These results raise concerns that long-term exposure to even very low levels of microcystins may be significant, and could ultimately result in liver cancer and other liver diseases.
Although it is widely recognized that exposure to microcystins in drinking water represents a significant health risk, the potential for microcystin exposure may be substantially greater for consumers of BGA products.
A key element for ensuring the safety of BGA products is adequate product testing and batch characterization. ...
The present findings suggest that batch homogeneity cannot always be assumed, and underscore the need for adequate batch characterization. Overall, these results indicate that microcystin contamination of BGA products can be variable, and that regular monitoring, extensive testing, and thorough batch mixing is necessary to ensure the safety of BGA products. ...
For example, one reported effect of low-level exposure to microcystins is gastrointestinal (GI) disturbance (2,3,5), and GI disturbance is apparently a fairly common experience of BGA consumers. MedWatch has received several reports of nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea associated with BGA consumption (51)."
That concludes with, "assuming that these products are entirely safe may not, in fact, be a safe assumption."
This report by Health Canada says, Last updated 2003-06-25
BLUE-GREEN ALGAE (CYANOBACTERIA) AND THEIR TOXINS :
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hecs-sesc/water/factsheets/blue_green_algae.htm
About supplements, they say,
"Health Canada is advising consumers to apply caution in their use of the products until evidence of their safety can be firmly established. In particular, adult consumers who choose to use products containing non-Spirulina blue-green algae should do so for short periods of time only. However, consumers can safely use products made only from Spirulina blue-green algae as these were found to be free of microcystins."
Apparently Ancient Sun BGA is not spirulina derived. I couldn't see any reassurances on their site about microcystins either.
Cell-tech, which is a multi-level marketing company, has a lot of commentary on criticism of blue green algae:
http://www.celltech.com/resources/info_central/response.asp
I know somebody who takes Cell-tech BGA, it cleared up her allergies after a lifetime of prescription drugs for them.
Interesting article that discusses various aspects of the controversy including that detractors say it's addictive. That suggests to me that it really does have PEA.
Blue Green Algae – Superfood or Pond Scum?
http://www.life.ca/nl/68/algae.html
And getting back to PEA, another source is some weight loss formulas, though they don't say how much PEA is in them. A common one is Xenadrine EFX:
http://www.bodybuilding-supplements-for-you.com/supplement-reviews/xenadrine-efx-review.htm
And then there's chocolate, as we know, where the problem is the sugar and fat that accompanies it. Scharffen Berger makes a variety that is 99% unsweetened:
http://www.scharffenberger.com/article_info.php?articles_id=1&template_file=chochealth.php
And then there's raw cacao beans and according to this site, "Raw Chocolate contains up to 2.2% phenylethylamine (PEA)"
http://www.americahealth.com/rawfood/specials-Chocolate.html
Another site:
http://www.rawfood.com/cgi-bin/order/index.cgi?id=122322068277-1071&d=single&item_id=0878&m=home
I saw some other references to cheese, apples and almonds being sources of PEA, but couldn't really track that down.
I think I will try the cacao beans as I like the idea of a whole food, but I may try the bluegreen algae too.
JL
Posted by Ktemene on May 3, 2005, at 19:58:16
In reply to PEA -- where to find..., posted by JLxx on May 3, 2005, at 17:05:30
Posted by Chairman_MAO on May 5, 2005, at 19:55:24
In reply to Re: Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!!, posted by linkadge on April 29, 2005, at 8:03:23
I've always wondered what would happen if one ingested alpha-methyl-dl-phenylalanine. Would it get converted to amphetamine a la phenylalanine --> phenethylamine? My source with a PhD in the subject says no, but he's like 60+ years old, so maybe he's mistaken. I do not have any evidence to the contrary though, so I tend to believe him.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on May 5, 2005, at 20:00:42
In reply to PEA -- where to find..., posted by JLxx on May 3, 2005, at 17:05:30
Just buy PEA HCl from a chemical supply company? Even with rediculous chemical supply house markup, it still cost me like $40 for 100g or something like that. Catalogs.google.com is a good start, and tons of them have it. Just gotta find one that will sell to you.
I am warning you guys that PEA is not benign. It is an extremely powerful endogenous neuromodulator that should be treated with respect. You can easily put yourself near psychosis by taking too much of it over a relatively short period of time. The problem is with MAO-B inhibited, it accumulates in the brain, yet you only feel its action for a short while. Thus, more is taken, and the cycle repeats. I also never found it that pleasurable for any extended period of time. For posterity, I once tried IVing 60mg of it. I got a nice rush. I did it again the next day, and felt incredibly anxious and dysphoric. It definitely is not amphetamine.
If one supplements with it and an MAO-B inhibitor, I recommend starting at 5-10mg per day and working up slowly. You can get a good antidepressant effect, I'm sure; just tread with caution.
Posted by linkadge on May 7, 2005, at 17:57:21
In reply to Re: PEA -- where to find... » JLxx, posted by Chairman_MAO on May 5, 2005, at 20:00:42
You are certainly right about psychosis.
When I was taking parnate I was also exercising a lot (which probably let to great increases is PEA) I think I had a mild psychotic break where it seemed as if god was condeming me for everything I had ever done wrong. I felt that I HAD to confess every single little wrong I had ever done everybody (ie I had to go around to everbody and make it public to the world what I had done wrong) or I would go straight to hell.
Talk about temporal lobe activation.I felt like I had jumped into an altrenate dimention that I couldn't get out of. IT was like 24/7 god was pointing a finger right at me, and never letting it move in inch. It was so funny because after I discontinued it I was quite literally EUPHORIC for a month. I've heard that happening with MAOIs. I was just so relieved that I wasn't going to hell, that I could't give a darn what happened during the day.
It was the best antidepressant I ever tried, perhaps I would consider it the "only" antidepressant I had ever tried, but it certainly had the ability to mess with your mind, I can tell you that much.
Linkadge
Posted by Sarah T. on May 8, 2005, at 0:19:35
In reply to Re: PEA -- where to find..., posted by linkadge on May 7, 2005, at 17:57:21
Hi, Linkage,
I had a similar experience with Parnate. That is the only time in my life that I had what was probably "psychosis." I didn't take PEA, but I exercised a lot. I've communicated with several other people who've had similar reactions on Parnate, and nearly all found their thoughts disturbing enough to discontinue Parnate. I've been thinking about trying Selegiline if it ever comes out in the patch form, but I'm worried that I might have more disordered thinking. Do you know whether Selegiline is likely cause the same problems that Parnate caused?
Posted by Declan on May 8, 2005, at 1:08:18
In reply to Parnate, PEA bizarre thoughts » linkadge, posted by Sarah T. on May 8, 2005, at 0:19:35
Hi Sarah
I've taken selegeline/deprenyl in low doses (< 2 mg/d) for years. You made me wonder a bit. Why am I so screwy etc?
Declan
Posted by Sarah T. on May 8, 2005, at 1:31:10
In reply to Re: Parnate, PEA bizarre thoughts, posted by Declan on May 8, 2005, at 1:08:18
Declan,
Are you being serious? When you say "screwy," what do you mean? Are you joking, or are your thoughts "disordered" at times, to the point that it worries you, your family or your doctor?
Posted by linkadge on May 8, 2005, at 5:11:23
In reply to Parnate, PEA bizarre thoughts » linkadge, posted by Sarah T. on May 8, 2005, at 0:19:35
Wow!!!! that is really interesting that you, and people you know had a similar reaction.
I think it has to do with parnate's enormously powerful dopaminergic activity.
It is a strong MAO-B inhibitor, AND it is also a powerful stimulant.
I can only describe this drug as being DEEP.
It is probably VERY active in the lower brainstem.I call it a very powerful antidepressant because it sure got my mind off wanting to die. Infact, it was almost this insane desire to live that made me psycotic.
All of a sudden it came into my mind that I the only way I could rid myself of this "god pointing the finger at me" was to live an exceedingly pure life. I had *NO ABILITY* to excuse myself of the wrong things I had done. It was like I jumped into this world of HYPER-REALITY. Coming from a dancy pracny SSRI world, this was an enormous transition.
SSRI's make you kind of feel that everything is subjective, and kind of artificial. You know that feeling that right and wrong is just in the way you look at it.
But on Parnate. Boy, everything was REAL AS HELL.
Right and wrong was as clear as black and white. There was NO middle ground.There was a sincerity to everything. You couldn't shrug off the words of the minister at church. If you saw a commercial on TV for starving kids in africa - you HAD to do someting about it - if you didn't, the rest of your life would HALT. I was afraid that people would find out about my past, although I wasn't quite sure what it was that I had done so wrong. It was very SCARRY. There is even a part of me now that has a hard time chalking the experience up to a drug. The kind of drug that leaves you in some ways begging to be on antipsychotics and lithium for the rest of your natural life. YOu know, begging for apathy.
I would have liked to have stayed on a lower dose with perhaps a bit of zyprexa. Because asside from it putting me on the brink of psychosis, it also created a profound sence of self. I tremendously enjoyed playing the piano, riding my bike, out with friends, swimming, having a horror film scare the hell out of you, running, I simply wanted to live an a way that I cannot discribe now. I remember watching Star Wars on parnate. I had seen the movie thousands of times, but it was like I was waching the movie again for the first time. Time and space became seemless, and I had that deep/wonderfull feeling I can only call "eternity". My vision seemed to extend into infinity. Something that users of high dose amphetamines report.
I was never on psyhco babble during that time cause quite frankly I was too busy Living.
This state of mind perhaps serves a purpose at some point in ones life. But certainly not something anyone can handle on a daily basis.
I can definately see how a connection was made between paranoid schisohprenia and high biological levels of PEA.
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't psychadellics like mescaline related in some way to PEA??
But, surprisingly, I long since slipped back into apathy, and anhedonia.
Too little dopamine makes you feel you have no importance. Too much dopamine makes you feel like to have too much/universal. I call it a "cosmic responsability".Parnate was the only antidepressant that had me thinking about meeting a girl, getting married one day, having children etc.
Now I couldn't give a fiddler's f*rt. Anything like that: movies, swimming, running, friends,
biking, hiking, and playing the paino, women, etc, just seem like a *big* waste of time.
Linkadge
Posted by JLx on May 8, 2005, at 11:25:55
In reply to Re: PEA -- where to find... » JLxx, posted by Chairman_MAO on May 5, 2005, at 20:00:42
> Just buy PEA HCl from a chemical supply company? Even with rediculous chemical supply house markup, it still cost me like $40 for 100g or something like that. Catalogs.google.com is a good start, and tons of them have it. Just gotta find one that will sell to you.
>
> I am warning you guys that PEA is not benign. It is an extremely powerful endogenous neuromodulator that should be treated with respect. You can easily put yourself near psychosis by taking too much of it over a relatively short period of time. The problem is with MAO-B inhibited, it accumulates in the brain, yet you only feel its action for a short while. Thus, more is taken, and the cycle repeats. I also never found it that pleasurable for any extended period of time. For posterity, I once tried IVing 60mg of it. I got a nice rush. I did it again the next day, and felt incredibly anxious and dysphoric. It definitely is not amphetamine.
>
> If one supplements with it and an MAO-B inhibitor, I recommend starting at 5-10mg per day and working up slowly. You can get a good antidepressant effect, I'm sure; just tread with caution.I have no desire to get high, and I certainly don't want to become psychotic. I've never taken an MAOI drug and I don't care to but I'm curious about PEA. I hurt my foot last summer and couldn't do my usual fitness walking and really noticed my depression increased. And God knows, I've loved chocolate all my life, especially in times of stress when it really does make me feel better. But the trouble there of course is the fat and sugar.
You say, "I recommend starting at 5-10mg per day and working up slowly." Why work up at all? And to what?
This 1994 article, http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1430/is_n11_v16/ai_15654206 quotes a doctor doing animal PEA research, "as PEA is administered the animals need less, not more."
I was just reading a post about the extremely short half life of PEA, and that is why people are taking selegeline with DLPA, to prolong it. Ok, but what is the difference between increasing PEA through exercise? Exercise relieves depression not just for a few minutes, but overall. Not for everyone, I know, but it seems to for me.
So could there be a anti-depressive benefit of taking blue green algae or raw chocolate in the amount to provide approx 10 mg of PEA a day? And what could be the downside?
JL
Posted by linkadge on May 8, 2005, at 15:42:42
In reply to Re: PEA -- where to find... » Chairman_MAO, posted by JLx on May 8, 2005, at 11:25:55
Exercise has a pea effect which is probably what keeps you running when you get started.
It has so many other effects though. Enhanced endorphens nerve growth factors, serotogenic, and norepinephrine function. The list goes on.
Linkadge
Posted by Declan on May 8, 2005, at 18:38:35
In reply to Re: Parnate, PEA bizarre thoughts » Sarah T., posted by linkadge on May 8, 2005, at 5:11:23
Hi Linkadge and Sarah
What dose of Parnate were you on? Do you think a lower dose (much lower?) would have been OK? Sarah, I wasn't being really serious, but I often feel pretty strange and wonder why. Not so much thoughts, although they can be kind of bleak, but more just the way I feel. Alert and unable, perhaps.
Declan
Posted by Sarah T. on May 8, 2005, at 18:40:31
In reply to Re: Parnate, PEA bizarre thoughts » Sarah T., posted by linkadge on May 8, 2005, at 5:11:23
Hi. Yes, I agree that the Parnate-induced psychosis probably has a lot to do with its being so dopaminergic. At the time I took it, I think it was considered to be the most dopaminergic AD. I also thought that the psychosis might have been due to the fact that Parnate supposedly suppressed REM more than any other drug that was available at that time. Some REM suppression is good, but beyond a certain point, perhaps it can induce psychosis (I'm just speculating). When I took Parnate, it was still believed that REM and dreaming were one and the same, so MY explanation for the psychosis was that if my dreaming is suppressed at night, then the dreams have to happen at some point, so I was essentially "dreaming"/psychotic during the day. Now we know that dreaming and REM occur in different parts of the brain, and one can occur without the other.
It's interesting to hear that your Parnate-induced psychosis had a religious aspect to it. Mine did, too. As I mentioned, others have told me they became psychotic on Parnate, but they didn't tell me the content of their thoughts, and I figured I shouldn't ask.
Other than the psychosis, it sounds as if you had some very positive experiences on Parnate. Unfortunately, I did not. At first, I was very glad to be on it because I had spent so much time on the numbing/dumbing/fat-making TCA's. After a while, though, I realized I was probably better off on either the TCA's or nothing at all. On Parnate, I had severe disruption of my circadian rhythms. I already have a nearly life-long delayed sleep phase syndrome, but it was MUCH worse on Parnate. And worst of all, I had tremendous difficulty reading and learning on Parnate. I don't know why. Perhaps that had something to do with the disruption of sleep and circadian rhythms.
By the way, I also felt very strange on Mirapex, but I never took it long enough to find out whether it would have induced psychosis. As you know, it's a dopamine agonist. Actually, I took it for only a few days, but during that time, I felt very detached. I remember speaking with a friend, in person, and I felt so disconnected from her and from the world. I felt none of the warmth and connectedness that I usually feel with my friends. I remember feeling that all I wanted to do was rush home and hide under the covers until the drug washed out.
So, I've concluded that those highly dopaminergic meds are not for me. Oddly enough, Dexedrine was the best, most stabilizing medicine I've ever been on. I was not euphoric on it. Dexedrine just put me on an even keel. When I was on Dexedrine, I felt as if I was closer to my true self than I've ever been. I'm very upset that it pooped out on me. My doctor told me to raise the dose, but I was unable to raise it much without experiencing profound fatigue.
So, you can see why I'm worried about the Selegiline patch. I've never taken Nardil. Parnate was the only MAOI I've taken so far, and I'm worried that Selegiline will cause some of the same problems that Parnate did. I'll probably try the patch when it comes out because there really isn't much left for me to try.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on May 8, 2005, at 21:32:19
In reply to Re: PEA -- where to find... » Chairman_MAO, posted by JLx on May 8, 2005, at 11:25:55
I injected the PEA IV to see if there was a difference in effect if I got past any possible first-pass liver metabolism, not to get high, as I had ingested it orally before and knew that it certainly didn't get you high. ;)
I am so glad that I am on medication that fixes whatever is wrong up there so that I don't feel driven to conduct such experiments out of desparation to feel better.
Without an MAOI, you will not feel any PEA you take externally, because it will be broken down by MAO-B before it has a chance to do anything. When I meant "work up", I meant "increase as necessary", and forgot to mention the maximum (as used in the study I read) was somewhere around 60mg.
I don't like the idea of taking DLPA to get PEA. There are just too many other things that it metabolizes into; for me, at least, it was even more agitating than taking 10mg of PEA daily in the long run.
Exercise is connected a lot more to the endogenous opioid system than it is to PEA. Chocolate consumption, due to the sugars (and maybe fats, I'm not totally clear), increases endorphin secretion. The "high" from chocolate, IIRC, has more to do with the opioid side of things than it does with PEA, despite the fact that PEA is in chocolate. I may be wrong on this, but if I am I'd like to see the references so I can get up to speed.
Also, increased sugar consumption and the subsequent insulin release alters the permeability of the BBB to allow more l-tryptophan (I think) across, thereby increasing 5HT synthesis and providing a calm, satisfied feeling. That is another mechanism of choco-happiness. ;)
Posted by Chairman_MAO on May 8, 2005, at 21:37:58
In reply to Re: PEA -- where to find..., posted by linkadge on May 7, 2005, at 17:57:21
FWIW, Have you ever tried Nardil? That might give you a "softer" sort of effect.
BTW, did you ever talk about your experience with a "hip" psychotherapist? There's probably some stuff in there that is deeply relevant to the relief you're seeking for yourself. It sounds to me like something very meaningful, anyway. The euphoria sounds not unlike what people described thousands of years ago as what followed an epiphany or mystical experience.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on May 8, 2005, at 21:43:07
In reply to Re: Parnate, PEA bizarre thoughts » linkadge, posted by Sarah T. on May 8, 2005, at 18:40:31
Honestly, you really should try Nardil. It might give you the good effect (or better) of the Parnate without being too dopaminergic. It also is gabanergic so it may calm you as well.
Hearing all of these stories it makes me wonder what it says about the state of my being such that 200mg/day of Parnate had me feeling calmer than baseline for most of the day (until the evening when it wore off). I certainly never had any psychotic episodes on it. If anything, I was more rational because I wasn't so neurotic all the time.
Nardil and Parnate are very close as #1 and #2 out of all ADs I've tried (far and away), but I think NArdil sneaks past just a little and steals #1 because I am so calm, collected, yet outgoing and cheerful. Parnate was more motivating, though, and definitely would be better than NArdil for many people.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on May 8, 2005, at 21:47:05
In reply to Re: Parnate, PEA bizarre thoughts, posted by Declan on May 8, 2005, at 1:08:18
The problem, I think, with selegiline behaviorally (in low doses, anyway), is that there is no MAO-A inhibition to raise SE "levels" to counteract all that DA that it keeps around. I took deprenyl with an SSRI, but the effect was nothing like what a "classical" MAOI feels like. :(
Posted by linkadge on May 9, 2005, at 6:25:36
In reply to Re: PEA -- where to find... » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on May 8, 2005, at 21:37:58
I have been trying to find a hip dr. but they don't seem to exist where I live.
If only I could prescribe the pills there'd be two possabilities. Either Id be dead, or I'd be perfectly well.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on May 10, 2005, at 16:08:37
In reply to Re: PEA -- where to find... » Chairman_MAO, posted by linkadge on May 9, 2005, at 6:25:36
I mean perhpaps things work different in the states, but If I went to my doctor and said, I'd like to try Parnate, I would be shot.
Every doctor I've been to would take EXTREME offence to me suggesting a medication.
Linkadge
Posted by JLx on May 11, 2005, at 16:22:10
In reply to Re: PEA -- where to find... » JLx, posted by Chairman_MAO on May 8, 2005, at 21:32:19
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