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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Lushkins on March 18, 2005, at 12:23:58
Just got some blood results back from my PDoc. Everything is bang in the normal range apart from cortisol which is very very high. I know this is the "stress hormone" and that I probabily need to chill out some but was wondering if there is anything I can do in terms of diet or supplements. Cutting back on caffine and sugar comes to mind, but I was hoping there may be something else I can do. He said that I could go on some type of steroids but he didn't want me to beacuse that can really change a person in many ways. He is also pleased with my progress since increasing lamictal from 150mg to the magic 200mg which so many people on various boards find relieve. But while this has relieved some depression the anxiety is still there and I think this is mainly caused by too much cortisol.
Thanks Lushkins
Posted by TamaraJ on March 19, 2005, at 18:34:32
In reply to Lowering cortisol, posted by Lushkins on March 18, 2005, at 12:23:58
Hi,
There are the two obvious supplements that you should be taking to lower cortisol - Vitamin C (mega doses - I personally take between 2,000 and 3,000 mgs daily) and B-Complex.
In addition, another nutrient that can regulate cortisol levels is Vitamin B1 (Thiamin). So, you can add extra B1 to your B-Complex. Anywhere between 100 mg - 500 mg could be beneficial. Thiamin has no known toxicity. Anyways, as I understand it, taking high doses of B vitamins is not problematic since Bs are water-soluble and any excess would be peed out.In addition, Acetyl L-Carntine (ALC) is said to lower cortisol levels. Extract: "ALC inhibits the excessive release of Cortisol in response to Stress and inhibits the depletion of Luteinising Hormone Releasing Hormone (LHRH) and Testosterone that occurs as a result of excessive Stress".
Another supplement you might want to try is phosphorylated serine. What I had read is that this supplement works by reducing the ACTH (pitutiary) messages that order the adrenals to release emergency amounts of cortisol and DHEA. This supplement is contraindicated for those with impaired kidney function, when taken with chocolate, caffeine, and other adrenergic agonist and alkaloid stimulant use, as well as for pregant and lactating women.
I hope you can lower your coritsol levels with natural supplements and vitamins instead of having to resort to steroids.
All the best to you,
Tamara
> Just got some blood results back from my PDoc. Everything is bang in the normal range apart from cortisol which is very very high. I know this is the "stress hormone" and that I probabily need to chill out some but was wondering if there is anything I can do in terms of diet or supplements. Cutting back on caffine and sugar comes to mind, but I was hoping there may be something else I can do. He said that I could go on some type of steroids but he didn't want me to beacuse that can really change a person in many ways. He is also pleased with my progress since increasing lamictal from 150mg to the magic 200mg which so many people on various boards find relieve. But while this has relieved some depression the anxiety is still there and I think this is mainly caused by too much cortisol.
>
> Thanks Lushkins
Posted by joebob on March 19, 2005, at 21:32:39
In reply to Re: Lowering cortisol » Lushkins, posted by TamaraJ on March 19, 2005, at 18:34:32
you give me a citation for it's action?
thanks
Posted by TamaraJ on March 20, 2005, at 12:01:09
In reply to phosphorylated serine...do you mean seriphos? can » TamaraJ, posted by joebob on March 19, 2005, at 21:32:39
Yes, seriphos and phosphorylated serine are one in the same. I found the info re its effect on cortisol from the following website:
http://www.thewayup.com/products/0043.htm
as well as from I book I refer to occassionally called "The Diet Cure" by Julia Ross (pgs 160-161 [which is where the info in quotes came from]).
Tamara
> you give me a citation for it's action?
>
> thanks
Posted by Jakeman on March 21, 2005, at 14:31:19
In reply to phosphorylated serine...do you mean seriphos? can » TamaraJ, posted by joebob on March 19, 2005, at 21:32:39
> you give me a citation for it's action?
>
> thanksYou might find these references helpful- Jake
Eur J Clin Pharmacol. 1992;42(4):385-8. Blunting by chronic phosphatidylserine administration of the stress-induced activation of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in healthy men. Monteleone P, Maj M, Beinat L, Natale M, Kemali D.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1325348&dopt=Abstract
Neuroendocrinology. 1990 Sep;52(3):243-8. Effects of phosphatidylserine on the neuroendocrine response to physical stress in humans. Monteleone P, Beinat L, Tanzillo C, Maj M, Kemali D.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2170852&dopt=Abstract
Posted by Lushkins on March 22, 2005, at 8:40:00
In reply to Re: Lowering cortisol » Lushkins, posted by TamaraJ on March 19, 2005, at 18:34:32
Thanks for that, I may give vitamin C a try. Would I be right in assuming that there would be no dangers in taking this? for example would it alter the balance of other vitamins?Thanks for the replies.
Posted by joebob on March 22, 2005, at 22:03:20
In reply to Re: Lowering cortisol, posted by Lushkins on March 22, 2005, at 8:40:00
any opinions on phosphorylated serine vs. phophytidyl serine....
i know regular phos serine works !!!!see below:
PHOSPHORYLATED SERINE: ANTICATABOLIC SUPPLEMENT
By Dr. Joseph A. Debé
The never ending quest to find substances to give a competitive edge and build muscle more easily has recently led athletes to a naturally occurring compound called phosphatidyl serine. This supplement is being used with the hopes of minimizing muscle breakdown in order to achieve greater strength and overall muscle growth. Although this supplement may produce such results, the decision to use it or not should be made after learning a little bit about it.
Phosphatidyl serine taken prior to a workout can reportedly lower the body's production of the hormone cortisol by 50 to 70 percent. The importance of this to the athlete is that cortisol causes muscle breakdown. Muscles continually undergo a process of breakdown and repair. By minimizing catabolism or breakdown through suppression of cortisol release, the athlete may experience greater net muscle growth. Sounds good, doesn't it? But there is a downside to all this. It is possible to lower cortisol levels too much. What are the consequences? Increased inflammation in the body, hypoglycemia, headache, cognitive impairment, fatigue, and possible arthritis. If you are still interested in trying phosphatidyl serine read on and I will give you the information you need to choose the right supplement.
First of all, what you don't want is a sublingual formula. Phosphatidyl serine is very poorly absorbed sublingually. Don't waste your money on this type of delivery system.
You may have noticed that the title of the article referred to phosphorylated serine but all along I have been discussing phosphatidyl serine. Here's why:
Phosphatidyl serine is a phospholipid composed of one glycerol, two fatty acid, and one phosphorylated serine molecules. When one consumes phosphatidyl serine, the digestive process cleaves the glycerol and fatty acids from the phosphorylated serine before it is absorbed. When the body needs phosphatidyl serine, it adds fatty acids and glycerol to the phosphorylated serine. Fatty acids and glycerol are available in abundance from bodyfat and from dietary sources. The rate-limiting step in the body's production of phosphatidyl serine is the phosphorylation of serine. By consuming phosphorylated serine, the body is stimulated to manufacture phosphatidyl serine. Supplementing preformed phosphatidyl serine offers no advantage, as it is broken down to its component parts and reassembled in the body using tissue-specific fatty acids. A reason not to use it is that the unsaturated fatty acids it contains are likely to be rancid. What's more, phosphorylated serine works more quickly and permanently. One final reason to opt for phosphorylated serine is that it is much cheaper. Phosphatidyl serine is currently more popular but it is an inferior supplement.
My advice to any athlete considering phosphorylated serine supplementation is to have a salivary cortisol analysis performed. If it reveals elevated cortisol levels then phosphorylated serine use makes sense. Otherwise, you may be playing with fire.
Copyright © November 9, 1998 by:
Joseph A. Debé, D.C., D.A.C.B.N., C.C.S.P., C.C.N.
38 Great Neck Road
Great Neck, N.Y. 11021
516-829-1515
check the net it is one of only 2 references to this specific compund
Posted by joebob on March 22, 2005, at 22:12:09
In reply to the question i am asking is..does anyone have, posted by joebob on March 22, 2005, at 22:03:20
settle a question that is interesting and important IMHO....
both aubstanses are readily avialiable to me at wholesale, but i am more interested in the science and, utlitmatley, what works bestthanks,
joebob
Posted by Lushkins on March 23, 2005, at 8:28:13
In reply to Re: Lowering cortisol, posted by Lushkins on March 22, 2005, at 8:40:00
Couldn't I just get the phosphadites (sp?) from soy lecithin, I had some lecithin but threw it out after reading somewhere that it can CAUSE depression, perhaps this would only apply if taken to excess, I don't really know, can anyone shed any light on this?
Lushkins
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 12:15:21
In reply to Lowering cortisol, posted by Lushkins on March 18, 2005, at 12:23:58
> Just got some blood results back from my PDoc. Everything is bang in the normal range apart from cortisol which is very very high. I know this is the "stress hormone" and that I probabily need to chill out some but was wondering if there is anything I can do in terms of diet or supplements. Cutting back on caffine and sugar comes to mind, but I was hoping there may be something else I can do. He said that I could go on some type of steroids but he didn't want me to beacuse that can really change a person in many ways. He is also pleased with my progress since increasing lamictal from 150mg to the magic 200mg which so many people on various boards find relieve. But while this has relieved some depression the anxiety is still there and I think this is mainly caused by too much cortisol.
>
> Thanks LushkinsGinkgo biloba lowers cortisol.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 12:16:44
In reply to Re: phosphorylated serine...do you mean seriphos? can » joebob, posted by Jakeman on March 21, 2005, at 14:31:19
> > you give me a citation for it's action?
> >
> > thanks
>
> You might find these references helpful- Jake
>
> Eur J Clin Pharmacol. 1992;42(4):385-8. Blunting by chronic phosphatidylserine administration of the stress-induced activation of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in healthy men. Monteleone P, Maj M, Beinat L, Natale M, Kemali D.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1325348&dopt=Abstract
>
> Neuroendocrinology. 1990 Sep;52(3):243-8. Effects of phosphatidylserine on the neuroendocrine response to physical stress in humans. Monteleone P, Beinat L, Tanzillo C, Maj M, Kemali D.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2170852&dopt=AbstractVery convincing references. Thanks,
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 12:18:58
In reply to Re: Lowering cortisol, posted by Lushkins on March 22, 2005, at 8:40:00
>
> Thanks for that, I may give vitamin C a try. Would I be right in assuming that there would be no dangers in taking this? for example would it alter the balance of other vitamins?
>
> Thanks for the replies.There are no dangers in large doses of Vitamin C, except it can cause diarrhea if you take more than your intestine can absorb efficiently. If you take high doses for an extended period of time, you can become dependent on it. If that dependency is created, going off the vitamin C can cause rebound scurvy, as the kidneys would be flushing it out at the old rate.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 12:22:52
In reply to Re: Lowering cortisol, posted by Lushkins on March 23, 2005, at 8:28:13
> Couldn't I just get the phosphadites (sp?) from soy lecithin, I had some lecithin but threw it out after reading somewhere that it can CAUSE depression, perhaps this would only apply if taken to excess, I don't really know, can anyone shed any light on this?
>
> LushkinsThere are four phosphatides, and only three of them are found in soya lecithin. Lecithin can have a "dampening" effect, which some would feel as calming. That's how I feel....mellowed.
The missing phosphatide in soya lecithin is phosphatidylserine (PS). PS is synthesized from soya lecithin, and most PS supplements provide PS at around 30% of the capsule mass. That's because the synthesis is inefficient, and expensive. So, a PS capsule will generally supply the other phosphatides as well, but who knows what the concentrations would be. Pure PS is available, but it is rather dear.
I generally take PS capsules, and wash it down with a blender drink that I mixed with some lecithin granules. Lecithin is an emulsifier, so it gives the drink a smoother texture (by the way).
Lar
Posted by KaraS on March 26, 2005, at 16:04:22
In reply to Re: phosphorylated serine...do you mean seriphos? can » Jakeman, posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 12:16:44
> > > you give me a citation for it's action?
> > >
> > > thanks
> >
> > You might find these references helpful- Jake
> >
> > Eur J Clin Pharmacol. 1992;42(4):385-8. Blunting by chronic phosphatidylserine administration of the stress-induced activation of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in healthy men. Monteleone P, Maj M, Beinat L, Natale M, Kemali D.
> >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1325348&dopt=Abstract
> >
> > Neuroendocrinology. 1990 Sep;52(3):243-8. Effects of phosphatidylserine on the neuroendocrine response to physical stress in humans. Monteleone P, Beinat L, Tanzillo C, Maj M, Kemali D.
> >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2170852&dopt=Abstract
>
> Very convincing references. Thanks,
>
> Lar
These studies both used bovine phosphatidyl serine. The current version is derived from soy. There is some controversy as to whether the current version is as effective - at least according to Dr. Ray Sahelian.K
Posted by Jakeman on March 26, 2005, at 21:03:32
In reply to Re: phosphorylated serine...do you mean seriphos? can, posted by KaraS on March 26, 2005, at 16:04:22
> These studies both used bovine phosphatidyl serine. The current version is derived from soy. There is some controversy as to whether the current version is as effective - at least according to Dr. Ray Sahelian.
>
> KI have had postive results with the soy based version. I've been using 500 mg (20%
phosphatidylserine) 3 or 4 days a week for about 3 weeks. My short term memory has improved, and it seems to have some antidepressant effect. Time will tell if it lasts. Does anyone have any experience with 'Seriphos' mentioned earlier in this thread?
-Jake
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 27, 2005, at 7:51:31
In reply to Re: phosphorylated serine...do you mean seriphos? can, posted by KaraS on March 26, 2005, at 16:04:22
> These studies both used bovine phosphatidyl serine. The current version is derived from soy. There is some controversy as to whether the current version is as effective - at least according to Dr. Ray Sahelian.
>
> KHe's pretty adamant about their being a difference, but I can't find any evidence of differential effect. He also sells the bovine stuff. Conflict of interest, but not necessarily a confict of integrity. Hard to say.
Lar
Posted by joebob on March 27, 2005, at 10:12:48
In reply to Re: phosphorylated serine...do you mean seriphos? can » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on March 27, 2005, at 7:51:31
is there a diffence?
the phosphorylated stuff is called 'seriphos' and is much cheaper.....i have some here, it's a white powder in a regular cap
i have searched again and again for references but can only find this:http://www.drdebe.com/Serine.htm
your input all ways appreciated
joebob
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 27, 2005, at 12:11:22
In reply to phosphorylated vs. phosphatidyl serine ? lar...???, posted by joebob on March 27, 2005, at 10:12:48
> is there a diffence?
> the phosphorylated stuff is called 'seriphos' and is much cheaper.....i have some here, it's a white powder in a regular cap
> i have searched again and again for references but can only find this:
>
> http://www.drdebe.com/Serine.htm
>
> your input all ways appreciated
>
> joebobActually, that link provides information that would make me think it is accurate. Better and cheaper is a pretty good combination.
Let us know how it works, okay?
Lar
Posted by joebob on March 27, 2005, at 14:02:34
In reply to Re: phosphorylated vs. phosphatidyl serine ? lar...??? » joebob, posted by Larry Hoover on March 27, 2005, at 12:11:22
quicker and is more calming, and can be very calming in some people....
this could be due to an anti cortisol effect..don't know.....
BUT the seriphos does not seem to have the memory/allertness effect of the regular phos serine...
and that makes me wonder what is going on?
Posted by Lushkins on March 28, 2005, at 9:21:38
In reply to Re: Lowering cortisol » Lushkins, posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 12:22:52
You say that the soya lecithin has a dampening effect. This would be OK for me as my depression basically means very anxious, irritable and NEVER apathy low energy etc, infact its probabily the opposite, im full of energy which usually spoils over into anger, I don't know if this is related to hypomania of Bipolar or not, or if its just the depression phase as I am usally really happy at times. I already take fish oil, so hopefully this will work well with that.One question. What dose of the Soya lecithin should I take, the capsules I have are 520mg with 500mg phosphadites. Would 1 be therapeutic? The thing is I don't want to mess with things too much as I have increased the lamicatal not long ago and am still adjusting to it.
Thanks for all the replies
Lushkins
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 28, 2005, at 10:24:47
In reply to Re: Lowering cortisol, posted by Lushkins on March 28, 2005, at 9:21:38
>
> You say that the soya lecithin has a dampening effect. This would be OK for me as my depression basically means very anxious, irritable and NEVER apathy low energy etc, infact its probabily the opposite, im full of energy which usually spoils over into anger, I don't know if this is related to hypomania of Bipolar or not, or if its just the depression phase as I am usally really happy at times. I already take fish oil, so hopefully this will work well with that.
>
> One question. What dose of the Soya lecithin should I take, the capsules I have are 520mg with 500mg phosphadites. Would 1 be therapeutic? The thing is I don't want to mess with things too much as I have increased the lamicatal not long ago and am still adjusting to it.
>
> Thanks for all the replies
>
> LushkinsSorry to be seemingly evasive in my reply, but the dose you need is the dose that works.
Another consideration is the capsules may or may not contain all three phosphatides found in soya (the most common source). The definition for lecithin may be phosphatidylcholine (purified lecithin), or crude lecithin (with some phoshpatidylinositol and phosphatidylethanolamine). The stuff I use is lecithin granules. Little yellow nuggets, from the health food store. It is my belief that they are nothing more than crude lecithin mixed with a bit of soya flour, to give it all some consistency. They have a mild nutty flavor, and I sprinkle them in salad, eat them straight up (kind of gooey), or most often, blended in with other stuff in a smoothie. I probably use about four heaping teaspoons at a go, but sometimes more. It's one of my intuition supplements, i.e. I use them irregularly, but based on a sense that "it's time to have some".
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 28, 2005, at 10:27:40
In reply to my experience to date is that the seriphos acts, posted by joebob on March 27, 2005, at 14:02:34
> quicker and is more calming, and can be very calming in some people....
> this could be due to an anti cortisol effect..don't know.....
> BUT the seriphos does not seem to have the memory/allertness effect of the regular phos serine...
> and that makes me wonder what is going on?It would seem, then, that you have disproven the mechanism that is suggested in that link you had posted. Having an intellectual or logical concept of what ought to happen is really just an hypothesis. After you did the experiment, it now seems that the hypothesis is flawed somehow.
I don't have a good explanation for the difference, but it makes sense to conclude that the two substances are different.
Lar
This is the end of the thread.
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