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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 36. Go back in thread:
Posted by Sarah T. on March 22, 2005, at 22:25:18
In reply to Re: 5HTP for obsessiveness » Sarah T., posted by Chris O on March 21, 2005, at 19:30:34
Hi Chris,
How long before bed do you take the 5-HTP? Since you also take it during the day, I gather that it doesn't make you sleepy or too relaxed.
Posted by Sarah T. on March 22, 2005, at 23:03:29
In reply to My mistake--About the Inositol » lotus, posted by Chris O on March 22, 2005, at 14:34:44
I wonder whether it's best to take the 5-HTP on any empty stomach or with food. Do you know?
Posted by Chris O on March 23, 2005, at 1:33:22
In reply to Chris O - another 5-HTP question » Chris O, posted by Sarah T. on March 22, 2005, at 23:03:29
Sarah:
I've taken my doses on an empty stomach. The Nature's Way 5-HTP is enteric coated, so...I guess that would prevent any stomach upset anyway. I consider it like an amino acid, and I would take amino acids on an empty stomach too, so they wouldn't have to compete with other things. Doesn't seem to matter whether I take it on an empty stomach or with food though. Seems to have the same "mild" SSRI-like effect.
Hope that helps,
Chris> I wonder whether it's best to take the 5-HTP on any empty stomach or with food. Do you know?
Posted by Chris O on March 23, 2005, at 1:37:41
In reply to Re: 5HTP for obsessiveness » Chris O, posted by Sarah T. on March 22, 2005, at 22:25:18
Sarah:
I have to say...I think my GAD and obsessive worrying is pretty severe. There has been no "natural" product I have taken, including 5-HTP, that has produced any kind of substantial effect on my nervous system. So, it doesn't really matter when I take the 5-HTP, or at least the Nature's Way brand (I'm almost done with my bottle of 60 tablets), the effects I get from it are not strong enough to...well, to do much than reduce maybe...I don't know, if I'm not stressed, maybe 25% of my physicalized anxiety. I have a really low stress job, a low stress life right now. If I had a higher stress, a higher amount of stress, I don't even think, well, I'd have to be back on something pharmaceutical, to function, to sleep, to "be in the world." So, I know that's probably not helpful, but...as far as I can tell, no, the 5-HTP does not make me too sleepy or relaxed when I take it.
Good luck,
Chris
Posted by lotus on March 23, 2005, at 1:59:28
In reply to My mistake--About the Inositol » lotus, posted by Chris O on March 22, 2005, at 14:34:44
I get my inositol here http://www.easycart.net/cgi-bin/BeyondACenturyInc./search.cgi
It seems to be just as good as the jarrow brand and a little cheaper.It usually takes about an hour before I start to feel the effects,again it's nothing outstanding but it is helping.
Posted by Sarah T. on March 23, 2005, at 23:42:58
In reply to Re: 5HTP for obsessiveness » Sarah T., posted by Chris O on March 23, 2005, at 1:37:41
Hi Chris. Thanks again for your help. I am interested to know whether you have encountered the apathy/amotivational problems characteristic of ssri's. I know you aren't on them now, but when you took them, did you get that "blah - I don't care" attitude? That has been one of the biggest problems I've had with most of those medications. I was also wondering whether you've tried any kind of consistent exercise, such as fast walking, jogging or swimming? I do find that exercise helps my anxiety a lot. As far as my depression, well, exercise helps alleviate my depression for a while, but when I wake up the next morning, I feel awful again and have to start all over. Just call me Sisyphus.
Posted by Chris O on March 24, 2005, at 13:56:24
In reply to Re: 5HTP for obsessiveness » Chris O, posted by Sarah T. on March 23, 2005, at 23:42:58
Sarah:
I like your Sisyphus analogy for depression.
I often feel the same way, in regards to my anxiety, worrying, and panic. Let's see, in terms of SSRIs, yeah, I did get a feeling of amotivation on them. In 2000, I was on a Celexa/Wellbutrin combo for most of the year and I felt emotionally stunted, if I remember correctly. Last year, I was on Lexapro for most of the year, and I just felt tired and blah most of the time. However, probably the biggest reasons I have gone on and off SSRIs are: 1) weight gain and 2) the ones I have taken don't really fully address my anxiety correctly. In addition, I worry about the pharmaceuticals damaging my health (liver, etc.) over time. I don't know. I am truly at the end of my rope though. If I didn't have a very supportive significant other, I would be forced to be on SSRIs because...I would not be able to function "in the world" otherwise. As to exercise, yeah, I try to do it consistently. Right now, I ride my bike as much as possible. I have a little 10 mile ride I go near our house; sometimes, I go everyday, sometimes not. I have to force myself to exercise. And, while it does provide a little anxiety relief, it's nothing huge. I am a 38 now; when I was in my twenties, I exercised much more vigorously (riding my bike from San Diego to San Francisco and back, to Palm Springs and back, participating in biathalons, etc.), but that never fully conquered my anxiety either. I was still a nervous wreck even when exercising fairly heavily. It's possible if I did triathalons or something hardcore of that nature, I might get a drug-like effect from exercise, but what's the difference between being addicted to exercise or being addicted to something else. I just want this damn disease to go away. Anyway, I guess you can call me Sisyphus too, because I feel like I'm rolling that rock up the hill everyday over and over as well.Much luck,
Chris
Posted by tealady on March 24, 2005, at 18:50:39
In reply to Re: 5HTP for obsessiveness » Chris O, posted by Sarah T. on March 23, 2005, at 23:42:58
Hi Sarah and Chris,
I experienced the apathy/amotivational problems characteristic of ssri's. Stopped me doing anything for many years. I'll never touch them again...but that's just me.
I just can't see the point in life how I am on them.I also probably have GAD or somethng similar. I do get difficulties breathing..called panic attacks..except they are usually there to some extent, unless I'm very relaxed.
I find I can't exercise that much or at least aerobically as I feel like can't breathe. I feel like I run out of oxygen..and this is supposed to be from panic in theory. I also prefer freah air..ike being outdoors as its easier to breathe. I find it difficult to breathe in stuffy poorly ventilated air conditioned rooms..where they scimp on the fresh air intake/ exhaust extraction and recycle air way too much, it seems , for me.I know I've always been a "worry guts"( OK,neurotic? in the older terms I guess at times:-)
and a bit obsessive anyway, OK sometimes worse than others, but its "bearable", although I admit there's a lot of room for improvement there:-) I just don't think it's my "major problem"..more a fine tuning thing, which, I think, if the breathing was better I'd be able to work on.I'm told this "unable to get enough oxygen feeling, so breathing hard etc" is common, except I have never met anyone else like me.
At present I'm trying to work out why I have breathing difficulties.
I've enjoyed following this thread, thanks guys. Just wondered if I'm alone with this breathing stuff or how common it really is.
Jan
Posted by Chris O on March 24, 2005, at 20:42:33
In reply to GAD? » Sarah T., posted by tealady on March 24, 2005, at 18:50:39
Jan:
Hey, it's me, Chris. We talked about fish oil a few weeks back. Your breathing stuff, hmm, does not sound like anything I have experienced with my GAD. My anxiety does manifest physically, but it rarely affects my breathing, unless I am having a full-on panic attack. You said "they (panic attacks) are usually there to some extent, unless I am fully relaxed" in your post. Do you mean you continually feel like you are having panic attacks? If so, I don't see how that could be bearable, at least not for me. My GAD is a major problem, I mean, I probably should be on meds because...I isolate...get agoraphobic otherwise...but I'm able to make money on a computer job that I do out of my signifcant other's house, so...I am in a period of "enablement" right now. Without her support, I would be struggling. (She doesn't think this is true, but I always feel one step away from being homeless when I am living on my own. It's never happened, but, waa-laa, I have my GAD to thank for always feeling that way.) I don't know what's up with your breathing thing. I can get agoraphobic in certain rooms, but it has nothing to do with ventilation. When I exercise, I generally feel better, no problems with breathing. But my worrying and obsessing...it's almost constant, never stops, so, I don't know, things that boost my neurotransmitters tend to help with all that. Anyway, have you ever tried any breathing exercises, like, for meditation. I have a CD from Dr. Weil, it has meditation breathing exercises on it. I tried it for a couple of months; never really did much for my anxiety, but maybe it would work for your breathing stuff? I don't know.
I wish you luck,
Chris
Posted by Sarah T. on March 24, 2005, at 21:17:54
In reply to GAD? » Sarah T., posted by tealady on March 24, 2005, at 18:50:39
Hi tealady. Thanks so much for your help. I know what you mean about ssri's. It's hard for me to believe that some folks here are actually helped by them. I think that more patients are harmed by ssri's, but that's just my impression from reading hundreds and hundreds of Internet posts over many years. That's certainly not a very scientific way of approaching it, is it?
Regarding your anxiety and panic, I had panic attacks about 10 or so years ago that were brought on by an insane med combo that an even more insane doctor had rx'd for me. When I got off that combo, the panic attacks went away. Until they went away, I found that swimming helped my breathing and the anxiety. I also bought some excellent self-help tapes from the MidWest Center for Stress and Anxiety and, of course, Klonopin helped.
Posted by Sarah T. on March 24, 2005, at 21:31:31
In reply to Sisyphus--Excellent analogy for this disease! » Sarah T., posted by Chris O on March 24, 2005, at 13:56:24
Hi Chris,
Yes, unfortunately, I think "Sisyphus" describes many of us here. Every day is such a struggle. I would love to have an easy, care-free day. It has been so long since I felt a sense of well-being. I do have to say, though, that exercise is probably the only thing that has really helped me. I have to overcome tremendous inertia to get myself to exercise, but after I've done it, there really is a magical personality transformation. All of life's problems are still there, but somehow they become manageable. That has never happened with medications. The trouble is, I have to do it nearly every day; otherwise, I'm nearly incapable of functioning.
I wanted to ask you again about your experience with Lexapro and Celexa. I think you said that Lexapro did NOT affect your libido as adversely as Celexa did. Is that correct? Would you say that Lexapro was a bit better as far as the apathy problems that Celexa caused, or were they about equivalent?
Your bicycle rides sound terrific. Ten miles is a lot! Do you feel better after you ride your bike?
Your significant other sounds like a wonderful person. And it's equally wonderful that you are receptive to the love your friend has to give.
Posted by KaraS on March 24, 2005, at 21:56:07
In reply to GAD? » Sarah T., posted by tealady on March 24, 2005, at 18:50:39
> Hi Sarah and Chris,
>
> I experienced the apathy/amotivational problems characteristic of ssri's. Stopped me doing anything for many years. I'll never touch them again...but that's just me.
> I just can't see the point in life how I am on them.
>
> I also probably have GAD or somethng similar. I do get difficulties breathing..called panic attacks..except they are usually there to some extent, unless I'm very relaxed.
> I find I can't exercise that much or at least aerobically as I feel like can't breathe. I feel like I run out of oxygen..and this is supposed to be from panic in theory. I also prefer freah air..ike being outdoors as its easier to breathe. I find it difficult to breathe in stuffy poorly ventilated air conditioned rooms..where they scimp on the fresh air intake/ exhaust extraction and recycle air way too much, it seems , for me.
>
> I know I've always been a "worry guts"( OK,neurotic? in the older terms I guess at times:-)
> and a bit obsessive anyway, OK sometimes worse than others, but its "bearable", although I admit there's a lot of room for improvement there:-) I just don't think it's my "major problem"..more a fine tuning thing, which, I think, if the breathing was better I'd be able to work on.
>
> I'm told this "unable to get enough oxygen feeling, so breathing hard etc" is common, except I have never met anyone else like me.
>
> At present I'm trying to work out why I have breathing difficulties.
>
> I've enjoyed following this thread, thanks guys. Just wondered if I'm alone with this breathing stuff or how common it really is.
>
> Jan
Hi Jan,
I have those breathing problems also. It's mostly from anxiety. Also, my nose gets swollen up from allergies and I can't breathe through it. This adds to the problem and had me thinking that asthma was the issue. But I'm now on 25 mg. of doxepin and I don't have the breathing problems anymore. Of course there is an antihistaminic side to doxepin - but I still get the can't breathe out of my nose feeling sometimes so I think that the doxepin's effect on my anxiety is what is helping the most here.Kara
Posted by Sarah T. on March 25, 2005, at 1:21:44
In reply to Not something I get w/my GAD » tealady, posted by Chris O on March 24, 2005, at 20:42:33
Hi Chris. I meant to tell you that the ssri-induced weight gain will come off. It really will. It might take a while though. I think you said you just got off the ssri about two months ago. When I got off the ssri's, it took me quite a few months to get rid of that weight, but eventually it came off. For some reason it took me longer than it has taken some of my friends who withdrew from ssri's. As long as you exercise regularly and eat as healthfully as you can, you will lose that weight. I must say, the ssri-weight gain is very different from the weight gain I experienced on TCA's. When I got off TCA's, the weight came off immediately. I wonder why the ssri weight is so stubborn?
Posted by Chris O on March 25, 2005, at 1:49:38
In reply to Re: Sisyphus--Excellent analogy for this disease! » Chris O, posted by Sarah T. on March 24, 2005, at 21:31:31
Sarah:
Well, let's see. I took Celexa (20mg) five years ago, but for the most part, it was combined with Wellbutrin (150mg). But...yes, for the month I was on Celexa alone, it was very fatiguing. That's why the psychiatrist added the Wellbutrin. However, even with the Wellbutrin, I had no ability to have an orgasm on those meds. The Celexa just gave me anorgasmia full-on. (Sorry if this is too much information!) Anyway, the Lexapro did not affect me that way, or as extremely. I had no anorgasmia on the Lexapro; however, I was fatigued, just not as much as I was on Celexa. I also felt like Lexapro was "weak," even at 40mg. It just didn't seem to be knocking out my anxiety.
Also, I don't seem to be losing my 10 pound SSRI weight gain from the Lexapro. I was a pretty skinny, lightweight dude before taking SSRIs (I'm 6"1', weighed about 170lbs for many, many years before taking the SSRIs). After the year of Celexa/Wellbutrin year, I was up to the mid-190s; after I quit, I took it down to the mid-180s, been hovering from the mid-180s to low-190s for several years, then on the Lexapro last year, shot up over 200lbs. I'm still hovering there and I have been exercising. I guess if SSRIs really worked for me completely, I wouldn't care, but they...annoy me.
I only take them when I'm desparate, and I'm getting there again. I don't seem to be able to feel at ease, to guide my life in any direction with my normal brain chemistry.Believe it or not, even when riding my bike 50 miles a day, my anxiety level was still high. I guess we're all different. My GAD is pretty hardcore. It's like, I feel like I'm covered in a layer of fear when interacting with the world. It's not conscious...it's just there. I can trace its origins biologically and environmentally to my mom, dad, and other immediate family members. But that has never made it go away. Anyway, blah, blah, blah, I won't babble on about this.
It's great that exercise benefits you so much. I guess whatever you do, it boosts your brain chemistry enough to make a difference. I hope you find the "magic bullet" for taking the edge off your depression and anxiety, whatever that may be.
Thanks for the feedback,
Chris
Posted by tealady on March 25, 2005, at 17:48:03
In reply to Not something I get w/my GAD » tealady, posted by Chris O on March 24, 2005, at 20:42:33
> Jan:
>
> Hey, it's me, Chris. We talked about fish oil a few weeks back.Thanks for the reply and help Chris. Much appreciated.
Your breathing stuff, hmm, does not sound like anything I have experienced with my GAD.
Yes, That's what makes me wonder some times. All the docs say panic attacks, but I'm not completely sure of it, as it tends to happen at times when I haven't anything to panic over.
My anxiety does manifest physically, but it rarely affects my breathing, unless I am having a full-on panic attack. You said "they (panic attacks) are usually there to some extent, unless I am fully relaxed" in your post. Do you mean you continually feel like you are having panic attacks? If so, I don't see how that could be bearable, at least not for me.
Well no, its not that good ..which is why I want to figure out what it is and what I can do to stop it or reduce at least...then I'll work on my obsessiveness and worry guts tendencies which I was born with I think, but I can usually"control" to some extent.
Or maybe the worrying causes the panic?? Gets complicated there.
Sometimes I do tend to really get myself worked up worrying about any little thing..and then it kinda blows into panic that's pretty unbearable..and no need for any panic or even concern really.My GAD is a major problem, I mean, I probably should be on meds because...I isolate...get agoraphobic otherwise...but I'm able to make money on a computer job that I do out of my significant other's house, so...I am in a period of "enablement" right now. Without her support, I would be struggling. (She doesn't think this is true, but I always feel one step away from being homeless when I am living on my own. It's never happened, but, was-laa, I have my GAD to thank for always feeling that way.)
I guess I isolate too at times. I feel like that now. and yet, I love chatting with people and meeting people...go figure.
Maybe sometimes I just need to as I tend to work myself up into panicking over way too many little things..even board posts, and there is no way I can physically keep up with everything to he extent I would like to..so I have to tell myself NOT to worry and if I can't get around to replying to everyone it doesn't matter, someone else hopefully will :-)) But I don't feel right not replying even when I'm really wiped...hope this is understandable. Guess I need to organise my time or something like that so I have some balance.I don't know what's up with your breathing thing. I can get agoraphobic in certain rooms, but it has nothing to do with ventilation.
I "think" mine has, but I'm not totally sure. That's why I find it strange. I sometimes wonder if the increase in "panic" is due to poor air quality..ventilation or pollution etc.When I exercise, I generally feel better, no problems with breathing. But my worrying and obsessing...it's almost constant, never stops, so, I don't know, things that boost my neurotransmitters tend to help with all that.
Yeah, I guess I don't stop worrying that much. Unless I'm looking at things and absorbing nature, or snuggling with my dogs or chatting with some of friends that seem to accept me as me I guess. But that doesn't get things done,same as you said with exercise.
Anyway, have you ever tried any breathing exercises, like, for meditation. I have a CD from Dr. Weil, it has meditation breathing exercises on it. I tried it for a couple of months; never really did much for my anxiety, but maybe it would work for your breathing stuff? I don't know.
Thanks, that's a great idea.
I actually made it to an appointment with a psychologist on Thursday aft. (I forgot my first appt a fortnight ago..poor memory). The appointment was about panic and breathing problems. He was in a rather stuffy office. We compared my breathing rate..about 17 a minute with his..about 9 a minute. Apparently, according to his literature, "normal" is around 10 to 12 breathes a minute. I do realise it depends on body size a lot too...with babies breathing faster and reducing as you grow. So I suspect I should be around 12 a minute?
Anyway he had me try deep fast breathing ..and that makes the feeling exaggerated..like the tingling is worse, the light headedness and "unreal not there stuff" is worse, the inability to concentrate well is worse etc. We only did it for 3 mins. According to his "book" what happens is you get less carbon dioxide but no more oxygen in your blood...I'm not sure of that though (I don't tend to believe what I read unless I can work it out myself with other stuff).
Although my blood Bicarbonate level is lowish and chloride highish, so maybe that fits.I want to look into this more.
Actually I'd Like a blood test of PO2 and PCO2 but NO luck with any docs there..I reckon they might help me if I knew what was going on. Hey but I can get as many SSRI scripts as I like to help!! We can't order our own blood tests like in the US, even if we are prepared to pay for them..something wrong there.An exercise physiologist I was listening to last week mentioned that sodium bicarbonate loading (in excess) causes diarrhoea..I wondered if I need to take sodium bicarbonate or not..still trying to work out what to do to help.
I did try bi-carb of soda once but got a headache. Not sure if related or not.
The people who do take sodium bicarb. take it to allow them to exercise more as it reduces the lactic acid I think. I did have high lactic acid levels in my blood before thyroid meds and that was just from lying in bed mostly (LOL), but they are coming down..and I'm exercising more, but not as I'd like to be able to as yet.
Hope I've got all that right.>
> I wish you luck,
> ChrisThanks Chris. I'm going to try to slow my breathing rate down and breathe deeper. I've been trying this morning..like breathe in deeply and count out to 20 or so as I breathe out..but after 3 breathes I start yawning and the yawning just keeps increasing... I'll look into those tapes too..great idea.
You know they are advertising breathing exrecises for lowering chloresterol now too? Maybe that fits with me too.Jan
Posted by tealady on March 25, 2005, at 18:06:14
In reply to Re: GAD? » tealady, posted by Sarah T. on March 24, 2005, at 21:17:54
> Hi tealady. Thanks so much for your help. I know what you mean about ssri's. It's hard for me to believe that some folks here are actually helped by them. I think that more patients are harmed by ssri's, but that's just my impression from reading hundreds and hundreds of Internet posts over many years. That's certainly not a very scientific way of approaching it, is it?
Sarah,
No I suspect the decade or so or SSRI's probably stopped me from thinking clearly and acting as I should have ...just numbed me. They initially made me feel a bit less depressed , but even that wore off after a few weeks. They also seemed to "numb" my mind and ended up preventing me from making the correct decisions. And that's not even considering the side effects of GI disturbances etc.
Some people on the thyroid forum say that AFTER they are on thyroid meds then a low dose SSRI seems to help(I've heard the same said for starting on a higher estrogen birth control pill like Yasmin or even oestrogen) ..like they work synergestically?, but I don't think I ever want to try them again.
>
> Regarding your anxiety and panic, I had panic attacks about 10 or so years ago that were brought on by an insane med combo that an even more insane doctor had rx'd for me. When I got off that combo, the panic attacks went away. Until they went away, I found that swimming helped my breathing and the anxiety. I also bought some excellent self-help tapes from the MidWest Center for Stress and Anxiety and, of course, Klonopin helped.Thanks I'm going to look out for some breathing tapes. The docs so far won't prescribe the anxiety type meds(I did ask once last year again when I was getting desperate). They reckon they are addictive I think, but they are fine with SSRI's(hand them out to females and jelly beans to the kids:-).
I do have some valium I've taken very very occasionally though.Thanks for your hep,
Jan
Posted by tealady on March 25, 2005, at 19:36:46
In reply to Re: GAD? » tealady, posted by KaraS on March 24, 2005, at 21:56:07
> Hi Jan,
> I have those breathing problems also. It's mostly from anxiety. Also, my nose gets swollen up from allergies and I can't breathe through it. This adds to the problem and had me thinking that asthma was the issue. But I'm now on 25 mg. of doxepin and I don't have the breathing problems anymore. Of course there is an antihistaminic side to doxepin - but I still get the can't breathe out of my nose feeling sometimes so I think that the doxepin's effect on my anxiety is what is helping the most here.
>
> KaraThat's real strange what you say about your nose.
My nose has been blocked most of my life. I was put on pills soon after birth as my nose was too stuffed up for me to feed..little blue pills...forget what they are called, but I suspect antihistamines of some form.
The ONLY time in my life my nose has not been stuffed was last year in England/Wales..got stuffed again about 30 mins after I arrived back thru customs in Oz.
I was thinking maybe its the eucalyptus tree oils..or maeleluca tree oils? I was also considering that for the first half of the 7 weeks or so in UK I was on doxycycline(jut an experiment to see about reducing antibodies etc) ..so maybe the antibiotic was helping there and just wore off..
but after what you say..maybe it is panic of some kind.
Strange though..
My Dad also has the stuffed nose all the time thing, but he breathes OK and can exercise just fine tooJan
Posted by KaraS on March 25, 2005, at 21:32:29
In reply to Re: GAD? » KaraS, posted by tealady on March 25, 2005, at 19:36:46
> > Hi Jan,
> > I have those breathing problems also. It's mostly from anxiety. Also, my nose gets swollen up from allergies and I can't breathe through it. This adds to the problem and had me thinking that asthma was the issue. But I'm now on 25 mg. of doxepin and I don't have the breathing problems anymore. Of course there is an antihistaminic side to doxepin - but I still get the can't breathe out of my nose feeling sometimes so I think that the doxepin's effect on my anxiety is what is helping the most here.
> >
> > Kara
>
> That's real strange what you say about your nose.
> My nose has been blocked most of my life. I was put on pills soon after birth as my nose was too stuffed up for me to feed..little blue pills...forget what they are called, but I suspect antihistamines of some form.
> The ONLY time in my life my nose has not been stuffed was last year in England/Wales..got stuffed again about 30 mins after I arrived back thru customs in Oz.
> I was thinking maybe its the eucalyptus tree oils..or maeleluca tree oils? I was also considering that for the first half of the 7 weeks or so in UK I was on doxycycline(jut an experiment to see about reducing antibodies etc) ..so maybe the antibiotic was helping there and just wore off..
> but after what you say..maybe it is panic of some kind.
> Strange though..
> My Dad also has the stuffed nose all the time thing, but he breathes OK and can exercise just fine too
>
> Jan
Just to clarify, I think that my former difficulty in breathing (chest really tight) was anxiety related. The stuffed up nose is allergies but that just adds to the panic I was feeling about not being able to breathe. Now that I'm taking doxepin I'm not panicking about breathing even though I still have the stuffed up nose sometimes.That's odd about your brief respite from having a stuffed up nose while in the UK. It's not fun to have that problem on top of anxiety. I hope you're able to find something that works for you.
Posted by ed_uk on March 26, 2005, at 10:41:39
In reply to Re: GAD? » KaraS, posted by tealady on March 25, 2005, at 19:36:46
Hmmmm, maybe there are advantages of living in the UK!
Ed.
Posted by Sarah T. on March 28, 2005, at 21:30:29
In reply to Your Celexa vs. Lexapro question » Sarah T., posted by Chris O on March 25, 2005, at 1:49:38
Hi Chris,
I suppose I should post this on the other board, but I think I'm more likely to catch your attention here. Going back to the Lexapro vs. Celexa question, I just wanted to know which one was less disruptive to your sleep. I gather Celexa made you more fatigued, but did it also help you sleep better than Lexapro? When I was on Celexa, although I was always fatigued and slouchy during the day, I found that my sleep was interrupted almost every night. On Celexa, I had what my doctor called "middle insomnia." I would fall asleep relatively well, but every night I woke up in the middle of the night for several hours.
Posted by Chris O on March 28, 2005, at 23:55:54
In reply to Re: Your Celexa vs. Lexapro question » Chris O, posted by Sarah T. on March 28, 2005, at 21:30:29
Sarah:
That's a good question. It's hard to answer in a simple way. When I took the Celexa/Wellbutrin combo, back in 2000, I was sleeping better in general than I am today. The quality of my sleep seems to be going steadily downhill as I get older. If I remember correctly, the Celexa/Wellbutrin combo both improved and disrupted my sleep. It improved my sleep in that it decreased my anxiety level. But it disrupted my sleep in that I had strange dreams. I don't remember how often I was waking in the night during 2000. I think I was actually sleeping through the night, meaning I was asleep for 5 to 7 hour stretches. Now, it seems like I wake up every 2 hours, on or off medication. So, while I was on Lexapro for 8 months last year, my sleep did not really improve that much, meaning I was sleeping for 2 hour stretches off the Lexapro and
not much changed while on the Lexapro.What you say about "middle insomina" is interesting. I can't say that matches my sleep pattern at all on or off SSRIs. For me, it's difficult to get to sleep and difficult to stay asleep, on and off the meds. However, one thing I've noticed is that I now sleep better from 4:00am to noon than from, say, 10:00pm to 6:00am. This seems to match the results of a saliva cortisol test I did last year, which said I have high night cortisol, but low morning cortisol. Anyway, that's probably not helpful, but...it's my experience.
Good luck,
Chris
Posted by Sarah T. on March 29, 2005, at 1:07:10
In reply to Answer » Sarah T., posted by Chris O on March 28, 2005, at 23:55:54
> > What you say about "middle insomina" is interesting. I can't say that matches my sleep pattern at all on or off SSRIs. For me, it's difficult to get to sleep and difficult to stay asleep, on and off the meds. However, one thing I've noticed is that I now sleep better from 4:00am to noon than from, say, 10:00pm to 6:00am. This seems to match the results of a saliva cortisol test I did last year, which said I have high night cortisol, but low morning cortisol. Anyway, that's probably not helpful, but...it's my experience. > Good luck,> Chris
>Your posts are always helpful. Your circadian rhythms seem to be a lot like mine (and Kara's, although I guess I shouldn't speak for her). On several occasions I've told my doctor that I feel the quality of my sleep between 2, 3 or 4 am and noon is far superior to my sleep during "normal" sleeping hours. I'm interested to hear about your salivary cortisol test. Have you ever done one of those nuisance 24-hour urinary free cortisol tests? If so, was that on the high side, too?
Thanks for explaining the Celexa/Lexapro issue.
Posted by Chris O on March 29, 2005, at 1:27:29
In reply to Re: Answer » Chris O, posted by Sarah T. on March 29, 2005, at 1:07:10
Sarah:
I'm up late doing some writing work, so I can respond to these posts immediately.
Let's see, about the saliva cortisol test, I just took one with a naturopathic doctor I saw in San Diego last year (Dr. Mark Stengler at La Jolla Whole Health Clinic). His books are very impressive, but...I was not impressed by my experience with him. Anyway, that's another story. He gave me (I assume he does this w/everyone) this little packet to do the night and morning cortisol readings. The company was called ZRT Laboratory, located in Beaverton, Oregon. The results said my DHEAs were high (12.2H, normal range 3-10H), my morning cortisol was in range (3.5H, normal between 2 and 8H), and my night cortisol was high (2.0H, normal between .5 and 1.5H). Anyway, I've never done the 24-hour urinary free cortisol tests. I don't know where to get that done--is it something a regular doctor does? My HMO referring doctor, whom I've seen several times in the past year due to my anxiety, is just about "tested out" with me. I kept asking him for blood tests at the beginning of last year, to check my liver function, kidney function, blood sugar level, blah, blah, blah. He now has my pegged as a hypochondriac (rightly, I might add), so, if I want to do further tests, I'll probably have to change doctors. No biggie, I guess.
Anyway, back the circadian rhythms/cortisol: There is definitely something going on during the night that makes me more tense/anxious, wheras in the morning to noon, I feel physically more relaxed. It's probably the cortisol. Seems to be getting worse for me as I get older. Annoying. I wish I could take a magic pill that would just normalize everything.
Sincerely,
Chris
Posted by Sarah T. on March 30, 2005, at 1:17:40
In reply to Saliva cortisol test » Sarah T., posted by Chris O on March 29, 2005, at 1:27:29
Hi Chris.
In my experience, those 24-hour urinary free cortisol tests are usually ordered by an endocrinologist. When that naturopathic doctor got the results of your salivary cortisol tests, did he recommend any treatment for you? In some ways, I think the salivary tests taken several times throughout the day are more helpful. The 24-hour urine tests will give you the total output, but they won't tell you when the abnormalities are occurring, and apparently, that is more important.
As far as your HMO referring doctor's attitude, to hell with him. Try to find someone better. I know. I know. That's a lot easier said than done, especially when you have to go through the HMO. I think your requesting a thorough workup is absolutely the right thing to do, but, you know, HMO's are more interested in keeping costs down than in helping their patients, and they reward doctors for keeping costs to a minimum. Ten years ago, I was still able to get a thorough workup without asking for certain tests. The doctors just did it when they felt it was warranted. Now, if they order any tests, they order only the bare minimum. I think they figure that if they order more tests, then they'll have to spend time arguing with, and justifying those tests to insurance companies, and they don't want to take that time away from their other responsibilities or interests -- or their golf games. Although I have a history of several abnormal lab values, these days I have to BEG to be tested, especially when I start with a new doctor. It's so frustrating, especially since I've been feeling so awful lately. It's harder to be persistent with these people, but we just have to persist in spite of them.
I know what you mean about wishing you could take a magic pill. Sometimes I feel that way, and at other times, I wish I'd never ever taken any medications. That's not to say that I don't need medicine. The one I need probably hasn't been developed yet, and I fear it won't be available soon enough.
Posted by Chris O on March 30, 2005, at 20:10:32
In reply to Re: Saliva cortisol test » Chris O, posted by Sarah T. on March 30, 2005, at 1:17:40
Sarah:
Hey, I really appreciate the feedback. Thanks. I don't know where I'm going to go next in terms of treating my GAD, panic, obsessive worrying and depression. I probably should be on a med...I'm starting to go down a really bad road again--staying up all night, obsessively worrying about going to hell, worrying about my health, thinking about the end of the world, and anything else that threatens my security. I really feel like crap today; I haven't slept much the last two nights. I'm supposed to see the psychiatrist I've been seeing since last year tomorrow. He gave me Cymbalta to try out last month, but I haven't taken it yet. I wanted to lose some of my SSRI weight, but that is not really happening either. It's all so...lovely.
Yeah, I probably should try to find a different HMO doctor, as you said. It's just that...I am a fr*gging hypochondriac so...it's hard to balance for me, the whole doctor a-hole factor versus my hypochondria. On the one hand, I'm grateful when doctors reassure me nothing is "wrong" with me; on the other hand, I wish they were more empathic and could help more. I don't know. I've been to the doctor, like, so many times for no reason. Just for worry. I can see how they get annoyed by me.
But there is something "wrong" with my chemicals, I know it, it's beyond my control. I took some 5-HTP this morning and while it was not perfect, I immediately felt calmer, a sense of relaxation in my body and a better ability to focus. Not pefect, but okay. I wish there something I could take that would just heal me. I've been trying to pray a lot over the past couple of years, but in many ways that has increased my anxiety (the whole awesomeness of God, you know? I already feel way out of control.)Anyway, it sounds like you're feeling crappy too, so I wish you the best. I'm sure we'll cross paths again at Dr. Bob's as we continue to do battle with this wonderful darn disease.
Sincerely,
Chris
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