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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by Chris O on March 2, 2005, at 21:05:05
In reply to Re: Fish oil experience--6 grams/day for 2 weeks » Chris O, posted by tealady on March 2, 2005, at 20:08:42
Jan:
Actually, I was not aware that fish oil depleted B vitamins. I think I'm going to stop the fish oil for now, because it was just promoting my panic too much...actually leading me toward some dark places in my mind, despite the benefit of less physicalized anxiety. So, I guess the experiment with taking Bs + fish oil will have to wait for me. I'm going to the psychiatrist tomorrow to get some Klonopin. I was on Lexapro for 8 months (30-40mg/day); I stopped ten weeks ago, but it appears my anxiety and panic are returning, so, I'm going to have to try something different.
The therapist I have been seeing told me she experienced some of the negatives I mentioned on 1 capsule of fish oil per day too. I guess it make sense of the fish oil depletes B vitamins.
Are you still taking fish oil?
Thanks for the feedback,
Chris
Posted by Glydin on March 3, 2005, at 8:14:48
In reply to Re: Fish oil experience--6 grams/day for 2 weeks » tealady, posted by Chris O on March 2, 2005, at 21:05:05
Chris,
If you decide to try Klonopin, I would really like to try to be of help to you as some one who has "been there" and had success. I am no longer planning to be posting, to any degree, at Babble but I do have babblemail plus an email address I'm willing to share with you. If you are interested, just post here and I will post the email address. If you're not interested, that's fine, too - it's just an offer. Either way, I wish you the best.
Glydin
Posted by Chris O on March 3, 2005, at 13:38:28
In reply to For Chris O, posted by Glydin on March 3, 2005, at 8:14:48
Glydin:
Thanks. And sure, you can leave your email address
and I'd be willing to share. I guess I can use the babblemail too. I'm going to the psychiatrist today
to ask for the Klonopin. He is an "anti-benzo" doc, but I think he'll let me try Klonopin. I've just read so many success stories about it, and it seems to be best for treating my exact symptoms--a bit of GAD, a bit of OCD, a bit of agoraphobia, a bit of social anxiety, a bit of terminal ruminating all smashed into one lovely mix. (Thanks, ma.) Anyway, I'll let you know how I fare, either here, thru babblemail, or your email.
Again, thanks for the offer/feedback.Chris
Posted by Glydin on March 3, 2005, at 14:47:18
In reply to Re: For Chris O » Glydin, posted by Chris O on March 3, 2005, at 13:38:28
>
> Again, thanks for the offer/feedback.
>
> Chris
You are very welcome. It's a lycos dot com address and prefix is Glydin at... there's originality. Feel free to use if you would like to contact me. Best of Luck to you.
Posted by Chris O on March 3, 2005, at 16:55:53
In reply to Re: For Chris O, posted by Glydin on March 3, 2005, at 14:47:18
Glydin:
I'm just going to post here for now. If you get it, fine. If not, that's fine too. I went to my psychiatrist about the Klonopin. He, like I thought, had strong reservations against giving it to me. He basically told me that in his experience, everyone who took it long term got addicted nastily and had horrible withdrawals. He told me about the research showing that Klonopin, over time, causes people to grow "more anxiety-promoting neurons" and that long-term use results in long-term withdrawal. He would have given it to me had I pressed him, but, I don't know, I'm not in full-on panic mode or anything, so I decided against it. (Even though it appears from these boards and those on remedyfind.com that some people use Klonopin long-term with no problems.) Anyway, he gave my Cymbalta, said he has about 100 people on it and overall, seeing positive things for anxiety, which is my primary issue. I'm not sure what I want to do right now.
I guess I will try the Cymbalta. I know it's an SSNRI, so it will be more like Effexor, more activating, and that would seem to bode ill for my GAD/panic/agoraphobia, but, who knows? It appears people on these boards have mixed experiences with Cymbalta. I think my next step, before trying the Cym, is to make an appointment with Peter Lambrou or George Pratt, who wrote a book on "energy tapping," which I tried about 2 months ago and thought was working, but, which now I don't know. But since they are in my area, I think I will do that before getting on another med. I would just like to balance myself without the use of pharmaceuticals. I keep trying, but nothing really works. Anyway, who knows, maybe I'll try Klonopin someday. I don't know.Good luck to you,
Chris
Posted by Glydin on March 3, 2005, at 17:49:12
In reply to Re: For Chris O » Glydin, posted by Chris O on March 3, 2005, at 16:55:53
Dear Chris,
You do what feels comfortable for you. If your doc is not particularly fond of using Klonopin, I think that would make things difficult. One of the keys to my success has been the support of my doc. I understand the feelings of prescribing individuals and they do have to make decisions based on what they have found in their patient populations.
I have VERY limited experience with Cymbalta - I did try it back in the Fall of '04, but my trial was not long enough to even call it a trial - typical of me and my experiences with med trials, actually. (Smile) That is just part and parcel of my disorder. I do hope, should you decide to proceed with the Cymbalta or however you choose to attack your challenges, that your choice will be just the ticket for you. There are many paths to reach a goal.
Again, I hope the best for you. My heart always goes out to fellow toxic anxiety suffers - it's a tough mess to contend with.
My offer will still stand should you ever feel the need.
Glydin
Posted by tealady on March 4, 2005, at 16:04:56
In reply to Re: Fish oil experience--6 grams/day for 2 weeks » tealady, posted by Chris O on March 2, 2005, at 21:05:05
> Jan:
>
> Actually, I was not aware that fish oil depleted B vitamins. I think I'm going to stop the fish oil for now, because it was just promoting my panic too much...actually leading me toward some dark places in my mind, despite the benefit of less physicalized anxiety. So, I guess the experiment with taking Bs + fish oil will have to wait for me. I'm going to the psychiatrist tomorrow to get some Klonopin. I was on Lexapro for 8 months (30-40mg/day); I stopped ten weeks ago, but it appears my anxiety and panic are returning, so, I'm going to have to try something different.
>
> The therapist I have been seeing told me she experienced some of the negatives I mentioned on 1 capsule of fish oil per day too. I guess it make sense of the fish oil depletes B vitamins.
>
> Are you still taking fish oil?
>
> Thanks for the feedback,
> Chris
Hi Chris.
I'm not enirely sure at all that fish oil depletes B vitamins. I just suspected that that may be what is happening. The theory seems to hold and som people who get acne have reported no acne after taking the B5.I stopped the fish oil..and after a while(months) the anxiety eased up. I do take it occasionally. I tried 2 caps a day but couldn't tolerate it.
I must admit I feel much less anxiety off it..although still some background stuff., but more livable with.
I did get around to asking a doc for an anti anxiety med as well, but was refused for simialr reasons that your dc mentioned and offered another SSRI as well..which I refused. I must admit after reading about some people trying to get off it, I can see the docs point. I was lucky I found some valium around with tided me over a few days. After over 10 years of negative reactions to antiD's(trcyclic and SSRI's) I think they are not the answer for me...even if its one I haven't tried before.I'm coping OK off the fish oil for now.
I'm lucky I had the support of TJ(thanks:-) and a few others over the internet to help me thru.
I don't blame you for not wanting to try the fish oil again with B5 and a multiB for support. I'm not keen to try it either. But when I do take an occasional fish oil, I also take a B5 as well...just in case.The logic about the fatty acids does fall down a little as I'm fine on EPO..??
Anyway I don't support taking 6 caps a day long term as I've mentioned before..or swallowing any large amounts of any oils over a longer term either!
The othere wierdo thought I had was maybe if one also took vinegar it might help ..as in salad dressing is vinegar and olive oil....and salt and vinegar on chips etc I'm not trying that either:-)) Mercola mentions something about vinegar too from memory. (but not with fish oil)I do put oils on my skin when dry though..way preferable to petroleum products.
I just don't think my body handles oils properly at present.
Wishing you good luck with whatever you try. I think, with time, now you are off the fish oil , the anxiety will lessen. Anxiety is sooo hard to cope with.Jan
Posted by Chris O on March 4, 2005, at 18:58:31
In reply to Re: Fish oil experience--6 grams/day for 2 weeks » Chris O, posted by tealady on March 4, 2005, at 16:04:56
Andrew Stoll and others are fond of using that sociological data showing that certain countries, usually those that eat higher amounts of fish, have less depression, less mental illness than the United States. Japan and Korea are often on the top of these lists. That has always puzzled me. As someone who has worked with both Japanese and Koreans, and someone who knows a bit about those societies...I just would not frame either Korea or Japan as models of healthy mental functioning. Korea, especially, is wracked with alcoholism, prostitution, early death for men, and lack of egalitarian status (due to hyper-Confucianism) for
women, children, etc. I understand that both Japan and Korea are highly stressful societies, so perhaps the data holds up in some way based on that criteria, but...I don't, from what I know, see the logic in saying that Korea and Japan suffer from "less depression" than the US based on their higher consumption of fish. I'm just not seeing it.
Posted by tealady on March 4, 2005, at 21:11:46
In reply to Something that's puzzled me re fish oil studies » tealady, posted by Chris O on March 4, 2005, at 18:58:31
Personally I place little faith in studies based on subjective measurements like depression, especially without control groups treated identically. How do they judge the quantity and quality of depression...via survey to complete often with interviewer feedback as well? The very act of giving people some time, consideration and personalised attention ensures some positive feedback usually..the placebo effect.
With sociological studies, I would have expected both Japan and Korea to have fairly high suicide rates...I could be really unfeeling and suggest that keeps the depression down??
But if one is doing sociological comparisons on depression, surely that must be considered?
Also is it the depression or the reporting of depression. In some societies reporting is more encouraged, in others it is not socially acceptable to admit to. Also where does a society draw the line between normal sadness and depression? Do some societies traditionally "allow" for depression maybe by providing more "in family/extended family" support? etc.
Jan
Posted by MM on March 4, 2005, at 21:34:38
In reply to Re: Something that's puzzled me re fish oil studies » Chris O, posted by tealady on March 4, 2005, at 21:11:46
Have you found the EPO helpful with PMS? I'm considering it because it seems like my hormones go way out of whack during PMS and I just go straight downhill. After a week or two things get better, but then I'm picking up the pieces from before and then I only have a week before I'm a raving ***** again.
Posted by teejay on March 4, 2005, at 21:42:54
In reply to Re: Fish oil experience--6 grams/day for 2 weeks » Chris O, posted by tealady on March 4, 2005, at 16:04:56
Firstly excuse the possible rambling nature of this post but im p*ss*d tonight but felt like posting.
As you may know, i've been taking vit D for a while now (since just before xmas i think from memory), and felt that whilst its no miracle cure, it was helping lift my depression at least a bit and (i think) giving me just a bit more motivation too.
When I say no miracle cure (must digress here and tellu i'm listening to isley brothers - summer breeze.........what a song, a true classic and guarenteed to lift any mood), i'd say whilst my moods still fluctuate quite a bit, the downs seem less nasty, and are not so long in duration although oddly enough my highs dont seem quite so fleeting and high either thinking about it.
*imagination - just an illusion* now for those interested in the playlist!!!!
Anyway, I decided to add to the vit D (afterall its good to build on something that works right?)...i've tried the omega oils but wasnt convinced I got on well with them so decided to back off a bit and try codliver oil caps (which are actually enriched with omega 3) and contain vit E, Vit A and some Vit D too (all natural from the fish oil I believe).
*bjork - leaving on a jet plane*
*everly brothers - sealed with a kiss*
I think i'm digressing so will (reluctantly) drag myself back on topic again! The reason i've demolished a bottle of wine tonight is to get away from the horrible terror of anxiety i've had this past few days!
*enigma - sadness*
I'm more than a little bemused at this response but believe its been mentioned before on this board. Anyone got an actual explanation as to why some people appear to have this bizarre opposite reaction to the intake of fish oil. I had a kinda feeling that I felt worse after a heavy oily fish meal but wasnt sure, but a trial of both (*earth wind and fire - reasons *(live)) omega oils and now cod liver oil seem to suggest my original gut instinct was right.
My natural sleep pattern seems to settle at very early hours of the morning to sleep and then waking at middayish so that would perhaps explaing why the bit D helps.........what i'd really like to know though is what I can add to it to help alleviate the wretched anxiety which I find the most debilitating of all the symptoms I suffer.
I think I best stop now whilst i'm somehow coherent anyway! Thanks for listening (to the playlist too) and any suggestions as always would be most gratefully received.
By the way, what is it about the combination of alcohol and romantic/sad music which produces relaxation/tears (along with tingles int he fingers) and a serious reduction in symptoms the next day????? Nice for an occasional "blowout" but of course its no real answer on a regular basis.
*david sylvian - forbidden colours*
Oh yeah.....one final question, is "teen spirit by nirvana" really americas best export in the past decade??? LOL
Oh heres one before I go, this one will probably ring bells with many of us.........
*4 non blondes - whats up?*
G'nite
TJ
Posted by teejay on March 4, 2005, at 21:53:45
In reply to Re: Fish oil experience--6 grams/day for 2 weeks, posted by teejay on March 4, 2005, at 21:42:54
One final addition to the playlist before I retire.
*Bill withers - lovely day"
I WISH, I WISH, I WISH !!!!!!
TJ
Posted by MM on March 4, 2005, at 23:01:19
In reply to Re: Fish oil experience--6 grams/day for 2 weeks » teejay, posted by teejay on March 4, 2005, at 21:53:45
I'm undecided about Fish Oil at the moment...It does seem to help me, but I don't know if it might be causing some other things......I do think I have some good response to it. I have an increase in anxiety when I take Vitamin D, however. So, maybe if we could both just mash our brains into our modems and do some kind of Frankenstein thing, we'd be ok!
Posted by Chris O on March 5, 2005, at 16:22:23
In reply to Re: Something that's puzzled me re fish oil studies » Chris O, posted by tealady on March 4, 2005, at 21:11:46
I suspect there is massive under-reporting of "depression," in all Asian countries. I'm certain it looked upon as socially unacceptable and, for men, probably "un-manly," so...waa-laa, welcome to massive alcoholism, workaholism, etc. I don't know. That's my impression, at least.
Chris
Posted by Chris O on March 5, 2005, at 16:34:17
In reply to Re: Fish oil experience--6 grams/day for 2 weeks, posted by teejay on March 4, 2005, at 21:42:54
Okay, I'm a four days off the high dose (6-8 grams/day) fish oil I was taking, and things are getting back to "normal," which to me means:
* Physicalized anxiety returning
* Worse sleep patterns returning
* But also: Fish oil "panic" leaving
* Fish oil "brain fog" leavingI don't understand the exact mechanism of action of fish oil, so perhaps someone hear better versed in these things (Larry Hoover?) could explain it.
When I was on that dose of fish oil, the anxiety in my body decreased; however, at the same time, I felt panicky and on edge. Plus, my cognitive functions felt "fogged," even if they weren't. Moreover, I slept better with the fish oil. I know I am not imagining this...it was definitely the result of the fish oil. So, anyway, that's just my two cents worth.Chris
Posted by MM on March 5, 2005, at 18:25:31
In reply to Fish oil definitely has paradoxical affects » teejay, posted by Chris O on March 5, 2005, at 16:34:17
Are you Bipolar (sorry if you already mentioned) or just have depression and anxiety? The way you describe the Fish Oil working for you is kind of how a mood stabilizer works (for me anyway) and I guess that's part of what Fish Oil is supposed to do for Bipolars? So umm I'm just curious I guess. I haven't gotten a definable panic on fish oil, and I do think it helps with anxiety for me, but I'm taking a break for a few days to see if it is part of the reason I'm having a sort of errr emotion/panic attack? I'll get upset and tearful and it comes on quick and then after it's gone I feel kinda the same way I do after a panic attack....Probably more than you wanted to know. I hope you find out what's going on....maybe your omega-6's get too low while you take so much of the omega-3's?
MM
Posted by Chris O on March 5, 2005, at 19:50:09
In reply to Re: Fish oil definitely has paradoxical affects » Chris O, posted by MM on March 5, 2005, at 18:25:31
I don't think I'm bipolar. I consider myself way on the GAD, OCD, panic, agoraphobic side. Which leads to depression. But I don't think I've ever felt "manic" before. The way I felt on the fish oil is...just that, at the 6 gram/day dosage, at least, it removed my "physicalized anxiety," which is like pain/tension in my body. However, at the same time, I felt very panicky, as if I were going to have a panic attack, and always thinking, like, "What is wrong? What is wrong?" That seems to have gone away now that I've stopped taking the fish oil. I just felt, especially at night on the fish oil, like I was going to, um, "lose it." Just kind of like, spaz out, go crazy, lose my mind, which I believe, is just panic attack. I'm okay now, no problem. I feel better without the fish oil, my "normal" anxious self. I don't know.
Your "emotion/panic attack" sounds kind like what I was getting on the fish oil. Jan (tealady) mentioned it might be due to fish oil depleting B- vitamins, so that might be worth a try, taking a B-vitamin while on fish oil to see if the feeling goes away.Good luck
Chris
Posted by teejay on March 5, 2005, at 19:50:27
In reply to Fish oil definitely has paradoxical affects » teejay, posted by Chris O on March 5, 2005, at 16:34:17
Hi chris, thanks for the reply.
Myself and tealady were just discussing fish oil and it how we react to it. I said to her that I actually feel better whilst taking it, but also feel worse, but I really cant explain why I feel better or why I feel worse!!!
Your comments seem to ring a bell with me though to some degree.......with normally anxiety you feel like you could just "lose it" all the time but somehow know you wont, but with the fishoil, I feel much calmer overall, but as though I could REALLY "lose it".....a case of being closer to that edge but being more relaxed being there perhaps?
Just thinking aloud.
TJ
Posted by teejay on March 5, 2005, at 19:53:39
In reply to Re: Fish oil definitely has paradoxical affects » Chris O, posted by teejay on March 5, 2005, at 19:50:27
We've just posted almost the same explanation withing 20 seconds of each other.
Someone call mulder and scully ;-)
TJ
Posted by Chris O on March 5, 2005, at 20:02:39
In reply to spooky chris................, posted by teejay on March 5, 2005, at 19:53:39
I don't know what to make of it.
Chris
Posted by tealady on March 5, 2005, at 20:11:37
In reply to Re: Something that's puzzled me re fish oil studies » tealady, posted by MM on March 4, 2005, at 21:34:38
> Have you found the EPO helpful with PMS? I'm considering it because it seems like my hormones go way out of whack during PMS and I just go straight downhill. After a week or two things get better, but then I'm picking up the pieces from before and then I only have a week before I'm a raving ***** again.
well it doesn't hurt or worsen PMS. I never relly found a lot that helped. I suspect highere dose magnesium would due to the choccy cravings, but I no longer get bad PMS as the thyroid meds have changed everything hormonally and really given my body quite a errr disruption..think my progesterone levels have finally started to fall, sigh. (they were way too high I suspect)
But EPO did make me feel better even if it didn't prevent the PMS. Still makes me feel better. Strange.Only took one cap a day though.
Jan
Posted by MM on March 5, 2005, at 20:16:59
In reply to Re: Something that's puzzled me re fish oil studies » MM, posted by tealady on March 5, 2005, at 20:11:37
I suspect my hormones are out of whack, possibly because of my thyroid, but I think my current doc is a little on the conservative side as far as that stuff goes...I think she thinks I'm a hypochodriac too so she doesn't take me as seriously? Eh, just a feeling. I'll have to try the magnesium. Thanks.
MM
Posted by tealady on March 5, 2005, at 20:36:04
In reply to Re: Something that's puzzled me re fish oil studies » tealady, posted by MM on March 5, 2005, at 20:16:59
> I suspect my hormones are out of whack, possibly because of my thyroid, but I think my current doc is a little on the conservative side as far as that stuff goes...I think she thinks I'm a hypochodriac too so she doesn't take me as seriously? Eh, just a feeling. I'll have to try the magnesium. Thanks.
> MMyeah lots of us hypochondriacs around.
One of the first positive things about thyroid meds was the changing of really heavy long menses to normal ones..(that's typical too if you are functioning as hypothyroid)
so defnitely a visible change there
:-)
Posted by tealady on March 6, 2005, at 3:45:34
In reply to Ditto on everything you say » tealady, posted by Chris O on March 5, 2005, at 16:22:23
> I suspect there is massive under-reporting of "depression," in all Asian countries. I'm certain it looked upon as socially unacceptable and, for men, probably "un-manly," so...waa-laa, welcome to massive alcoholism, workaholism, etc. I don't know. That's my impression, at least.
>
> Chris
Ditto back and thanks for listing the effects fish oil has on you so succinctly.For some reason I can never really clearly work out what anything does.
Positive or negative,or more/less anxious,depressed,fatigued is about my limit.I find, that for me, depression and fatigue often go together(that's the hypothyroid link I suspect)..and anxiety is separate.
Anxiety CAN be too high a T3 level (hyperthyroid tendency ) as well, but I didn't notice fish oil having any other hyper symptoms on me(like increased heartbeat, increased appetite, more energised, less likely to be so sleepy) so I doubt if its having that effect.
Fish oil should (in theory) though gives one a higher level of omega3 in their membranes(within narrow species ranges)..which should create more "energised" membranes..the tails of the phospholipids wiggle more.
There appears to be a correlation between animal species with higher levels of omega3 in their membranes and faster metabolisms and shorter life spans (I think from memory)? I put a link to something like this up here a couple of times last year. (also maybe with omega9 and longer life spans). As always its a balance and by adding fish oil we are just trying to regain that balance we had in a more traditional diet when food supplies weren't so grain based.
I was just thinking this more "wiggling" and a increased metabolism could maybe be a type of hyperthyroid effect, which goes hand in hand with increased anxiety too.
Sorry I'm rambling again:-)..and its only a thought.
Jan
Posted by joebob on March 6, 2005, at 13:08:54
In reply to Ditto back and thanks for listing the effects fish » Chris O, posted by tealady on March 6, 2005, at 3:45:34
studies suggest using 1gm/day, if results are partial go to 2gms........thats epa, not the total omega 3 content
((( i use and suscribe to the idea that you are better with a high epa/dha ratio, ala d. horrobin....there are several brands
i have watched the epa vs dha discussion/controversy for a few years now, and i came down on the high epa side for depression, bipolar and schizophrenia )))
if no results at 2gm/day probably won't work for you...at least that's what i recall........do the google on it
This is the end of the thread.
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