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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jujube on December 1, 2004, at 21:31:13
Can anybody tell me if there is a difference between these two products and whether they would both yield the same results?
Thanks.
Tamara
Posted by KaraS on December 2, 2004, at 19:14:50
In reply to Acetyl L-Carnitine vs L-Carnitine, posted by jujube on December 1, 2004, at 21:31:13
> Can anybody tell me if there is a difference between these two products and whether they would both yield the same results?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Tamara
Here is some info from Dr. Ray Sahelian's website:"Carnitine, or L-carnitine, is a naturally occurring substance found in most cells of the body, particularly the brain and neural tissues, muscles, and heart. Carnitine, whose structure is similar to choline, is widely available in animal foods (meat, poultry, fish and dairy products), whereas plants have very small amounts. Most non-vegetarians consume about 100 to 300 mg of carnitine a day, and the body is able to synthesize this nutrient if dietary intake is inadequate. When ingested as a pill, carnitine is not able to cross the blood-brain barrier as well as its activated form Acetyl-L-Carnitine. Acetyl-l-carnitine has a significantly more noticeable effect on the mind than carnitine. Acetyl-l-carnitine usually enhances mental clarity and focus, along with slight mood elevation. Both acetyl-l-carnitine and carnitine are wonderful antioxidant, although the former may be more powerful."
If you want to read more about it, there's a lot of information on both carnitine and the acetylated version at
K
Posted by jujube on December 2, 2004, at 19:31:35
In reply to Re: Acetyl L-Carnitine vs L-Carnitine » jujube, posted by KaraS on December 2, 2004, at 19:14:50
Thanks so much Kara. I should have known to go to his site. I wasn't thinking or was just being plain lazy.
On another note, I hadn't seen you posting for a few days. Is everything ok? How are you doing in terms of identifying a new AD - any luck, decisions?
I hope you are doing well. Take care.
Tamara
Posted by KaraS on December 2, 2004, at 21:38:30
In reply to Re: Acetyl L-Carnitine vs L-Carnitine » KaraS, posted by jujube on December 2, 2004, at 19:31:35
> Thanks so much Kara. I should have known to go to his site. I wasn't thinking or was just being plain lazy.
>
> On another note, I hadn't seen you posting for a few days. Is everything ok? How are you doing in terms of identifying a new AD - any luck, decisions?
>
> I hope you are doing well. Take care.
>
> Tamara
I was busy working for a couple of days that's all. Thanks for noticing and asking! I'm trying the selegiline with DLPA now. The asthma-like problems have made me afraid to take any medication for fear of aggrivating the situation. Once I give this an adequate trial and if it doesn't work out, then I think I'll try the Parnate.How are you doing with your supplements and Anafranil? Can you get your DMAE back from customs?
Kara
Posted by jujube on December 2, 2004, at 21:59:09
In reply to Re: Acetyl L-Carnitine vs L-Carnitine » jujube, posted by KaraS on December 2, 2004, at 21:38:30
> > Thanks so much Kara. I should have known to go to his site. I wasn't thinking or was just being plain lazy.
> >
> > On another note, I hadn't seen you posting for a few days. Is everything ok? How are you doing in terms of identifying a new AD - any luck, decisions?
> >
> > I hope you are doing well. Take care.
> >
> > Tamara
>
>
> I was busy working for a couple of days that's all. Thanks for noticing and asking! I'm trying the selegiline with DLPA now. The asthma-like problems have made me afraid to take any medication for fear of aggrivating the situation. Once I give this an adequate trial and if it doesn't work out, then I think I'll try the Parnate.
>
> How are you doing with your supplements and Anafranil? Can you get your DMAE back from customs?
>
> Kara
>Glad that everything is ok. How are you finding the DLPA?
The Anafranil has not been too bad, just a bit more dizziness when I stand up and some dry mouth. I am at 50 mg now, and was thinking of going up to 75 mg. I think I will wait a week before increasing my dose. I always find that I feel worse when I am PMSing (sorry to be so personal), hence the decision to wait before increasing the dose. Plus, I want to try the NADH and the DMG as augmenters.
As for the DMAE, I think it is a lost cause. I found the revised Food and Drugs Act schedules and DMAE is definately listed, so I guess I am SOL. I am going to see if any of my friends or even my dad will be going to the States soon and see if someone can pick some up for me. At least I got the NADH, so that's a start.
I hope you find something to help you with the asthma problems you are having. I have had to see a lung specialist in the past because of a spot on my lung which was apparently from a lung disease - histoplasmosis - I had had (not sure when I ever had that). Recently I had to go back to him because my gp noticed wheezing when I had my physical. I wasn't worried about the wheezing since I always seem to wheeze about 1 to 2 weeks before my cycle (can't figure that one out).
Take good care of yourself. And, good luck with the DLPA and selegiline.
Tamara
Posted by raybakes on December 3, 2004, at 6:36:13
In reply to Re: Acetyl L-Carnitine vs L-Carnitine » KaraS, posted by jujube on December 2, 2004, at 21:59:09
Hi Tamara,
read this article recently about hormones and asthma....
"data generated between 1966 and 2001 and discovered that asthmatic patients experienced increased asthma episodes, increased hospitalizations for asthma and decreased pulmonary function during the premenstrual and menstrual phase, when hormonal levels are low."
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cache:1rag9DAsXvsJ:www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/03/030320074001.htm+asthma+progesterone&hl=enI have tried carnitine and acetyl l carnitine, and get on well with carnitine but not acetyl l carnitine. Not sure why, but did read something about acetyl l carnitine being able to mimic acetylcholine in some circumstances. Carnitine is a lot cheaper too!
Ray
Posted by jujube on December 3, 2004, at 12:46:07
In reply to Re: Acetyl L-Carnitine vs L-Carnitine » jujube, posted by raybakes on December 3, 2004, at 6:36:13
Thanks so much Ray for both the link to the article and the opinion on Acetyl L-Carnitine and L-Carnitine. Much appreciated.
Tamara
Posted by Mistermindmasta on December 4, 2004, at 14:07:01
In reply to Acetyl L-Carnitine vs L-Carnitine, posted by jujube on December 1, 2004, at 21:31:13
I haven't tried L carnitine, but i have tried the acetyl form, and I like it's effects. Rather expensive though. Too expensive to be using every day.
I don't know about this whole acetylation of amino acids idea. Sometimes it seems to make sense, but other times i think its a gimmick. Ive tried acetyl l tyrosine, and I get more of an effect from regular l tyrosine, and regular l tyrosine is 3 times cheapter.
Id like it if l carnitine had the same effects as ALC but i have yet to try it.
Posted by KaraS on December 4, 2004, at 14:30:36
In reply to Re: Acetyl L-Carnitine vs L-Carnitine » KaraS, posted by jujube on December 2, 2004, at 21:59:09
Hi Tamara,
> Glad that everything is ok. How are you finding the DLPA?
Too soon to tell. I have only been taking it with the selegiline sporadically because of the asthma issue.
> The Anafranil has not been too bad, just a bit more dizziness when I stand up and some dry mouth. I am at 50 mg now, and was thinking of going up to 75 mg. I think I will wait a week before increasing my dose. I always find that I feel worse when I am PMSing (sorry to be so personal), hence the decision to wait before increasing the dose. Plus, I want to try the NADH and the DMG as augmenters.So the Anafranil seems to be working and you're planning to stay on it a while? (I'm assuming that you've done some research on NADH and you know that it can't be taken indefinitely as it will tend to poop out and/or make you irritable if you don't take breaks from it. Also, I think TMG is a better augmentor with it than DMG. Can you get TMG in Canada? You probably know all this as I see you've been doing a lot research lately - but I thought I'd mention those things in case you haven't read them.)
> As for the DMAE, I think it is a lost cause. I found the revised Food and Drugs Act schedules and DMAE is definately listed, so I guess I am SOL. I am going to see if any of my friends or even my dad will be going to the States soon and see if someone can pick some up for me. At least I got the NADH, so that's a start.
I saw your other post about how you can get the DMAE in Canada now. Yay! So ridiculous how they restrict such benign supplements!
> I hope you find something to help you with the asthma problems you are having. I have had to see a lung specialist in the past because of a spot on my lung which was apparently from a lung disease - histoplasmosis - I had had (not sure when I ever had that). Recently I had to go back to him because my gp noticed wheezing when I had my physical. I wasn't worried about the wheezing since I always seem to wheeze about 1 to 2 weeks before my cycle (can't figure that one out).I don't have any wheezing so maybe it's more of a stress issue. My nasal passageways swell up though and I can't breathe out of my nose. That part is from either allergens or possibly the dry heat inside this time of year. Then my chest gets really tight probably from stress/panic. I can feel myself clenching the muscles in my chest and I feel that I'm fighting to get air. I haven't wanted to take the selegilne for fear that it might make the situation worse.
> Take good care of yourself. And, good luck with the DLPA and selegiline.Thanks. If I could just get healthy enough for a normal trial of it...
Good luck with your new supplements. Be sure to report back on how they're working for you. (You never did try the Rhodiola, did you?)
K
Posted by jujube on December 4, 2004, at 17:54:02
In reply to Re: Acetyl L-Carnitine vs L-Carnitine » jujube, posted by KaraS on December 4, 2004, at 14:30:36
> So the Anafranil seems to be working and you're planning to stay on it a while? (I'm assuming that you've done some research on NADH and you know that it can't be taken indefinitely as it will tend to poop out and/or make you irritable if you don't take breaks from it. Also, I think TMG is a better augmentor with it than DMG. Can you get TMG in Canada? You probably know all this as I see you've been doing a lot research lately - but I thought I'd mention those things in case you haven't read them.)
--I will probably stay on the Anafranil for a while, as long as I don't gain weight and the dizziness doesn't get worse. It seems to be quite effective. All I need now is something to kick-start my motivation again. I have never had a problem in the past with motivation, which is why this is so frustrating. Thanks for the reminder about NADH poop-out after long-term use. I had read that in my research, but it's always nice to be reminded. With respect to the TMG vs DMG, I went with the DMG because I could only find TMG in high doses, and I wanted to start low and work up if necessary. If the DMG doesn't work, then I will try to find another source for TMG in lower doses.
> I saw your other post about how you can get the DMAE in Canada now. Yay! So ridiculous how they restrict such benign supplements!-- Ridiculous is right! The source from which I was able to get the DMAE said it had something to do with the pharmaceutical companies lobbying the government to have it prohibited. Whether that is true or not, I don't know. I know the woman I dealt with at this business told me that one of her customers has been giving her son DMAE and he now no longer needs to be on Ritalin. I seems to recall reading that DMAE used to be a prescription drug in Europe many years ago and went by the name Deanol (? spelling). I am looking forward to trying it.
> I don't have any wheezing so maybe it's more of a stress issue. My nasal passageways swell up though and I can't breathe out of my nose. That part is from either allergens or possibly the dry heat inside this time of year. Then my chest gets really tight probably from stress/panic. I can feel myself clenching the muscles in my chest and I feel that I'm fighting to get air. I haven't wanted to take the selegilne for fear that it might make the situation worse.
>
-- Have you asked your GP if you can have some pulmonary function testing done? These tests would give you a pretty good idea if you have asthma. I suffer from bad sinuses, and have since my early 30s. When I first started experiencing problems, I had the same problem as you - my nasal passages would block right up and even my ears would get blocked like I was on an airplane. I remember experiencing a lot of anxiety and tightness in my chest, which did turn out to be panic because I could not breath through my nose. If you are really worried, however, try to get some pulmonary function tests done. Also, what I have found helps unblock the nasal passages is steaming my face. And, when it gets really bad, I put Vicks on my face when I go to bed. It seems to help unblock things.> Good luck with your new supplements. Be sure to report back on how they're working for you. (You never did try the Rhodiola, did you?)
-- No, never did try the Rhodiola. Didn't want to take the chance using at the same time as a SSRI or now a TCA since my doctor was not too keen on it being combined. But, it's there for me to try when I decide to be more adventurous and throw caution to the wind.
Take care. Hope you find some relief for your sinuses and the asthma.
Tamara
Posted by jujube on December 4, 2004, at 18:50:29
In reply to Re: Acetyl L-Carnitine vs L-Carnitine, posted by Mistermindmasta on December 4, 2004, at 14:07:01
Thanks for the info, and I hear ya about the cost! Can I ask you what effects you had on the acetyl form? Did you experience better cognition, increased motivation, more focus? Those are just some of the effects I am looking for. I am going to try DMAE first, and if I don't get the response I am looking for, I will try Acetyl L-Carnitine, regardless of the cost.
Tamara
> I haven't tried L carnitine, but i have tried the acetyl form, and I like it's effects. Rather expensive though. Too expensive to be using every day.
>
> I don't know about this whole acetylation of amino acids idea. Sometimes it seems to make sense, but other times i think its a gimmick. Ive tried acetyl l tyrosine, and I get more of an effect from regular l tyrosine, and regular l tyrosine is 3 times cheapter.
>
> Id like it if l carnitine had the same effects as ALC but i have yet to try it.
>
Posted by KaraS on December 4, 2004, at 20:35:35
In reply to Re: Acetyl L-Carnitine vs L-Carnitine » KaraS, posted by jujube on December 4, 2004, at 17:54:02
> > So the Anafranil seems to be working and you're planning to stay on it a while? (I'm assuming that you've done some research on NADH and you know that it can't be taken indefinitely as it will tend to poop out and/or make you irritable if you don't take breaks from it. Also, I think TMG is a better augmentor with it than DMG. Can you get TMG in Canada? You probably know all this as I see you've been doing a lot research lately - but I thought I'd mention those things in case you haven't read them.)
>
> --I will probably stay on the Anafranil for a while, as long as I don't gain weight and the dizziness doesn't get worse. It seems to be quite effective. All I need now is something to kick-start my motivation again. I have never had a problem in the past with motivation, which is why this is so frustrating. Thanks for the reminder about NADH poop-out after long-term use. I had read that in my research, but it's always nice to be reminded. With respect to the TMG vs DMG, I went with the DMG because I could only find TMG in high doses, and I wanted to start low and work up if necessary. If the DMG doesn't work, then I will try to find another source for TMG in lower doses.Part of the problem is better than nothing I guess. The motivation is a tough one. I'm working on that myself which is why I'm trying the selegiline and may end up trying the Parnate. I just wish they didn't put me to sleep. It makes it so hard to function.
> > I saw your other post about how you can get the DMAE in Canada now. Yay! So ridiculous how they restrict such benign supplements!
>
> -- Ridiculous is right! The source from which I was able to get the DMAE said it had something to do with the pharmaceutical companies lobbying the government to have it prohibited. Whether that is true or not, I don't know. I know the woman I dealt with at this business told me that one of her customers has been giving her son DMAE and he now no longer needs to be on Ritalin. I seems to recall reading that DMAE used to be a prescription drug in Europe many years ago and went by the name Deanol (? spelling). I am looking forward to trying it.I remember reading something like that about DMAE. There's also a supplement or medication that is slightly different (diethyl instead of dimethyl so it was actually DEAE) One of them I think was called Deanol and the other was called Deaner - but I could be mistaken. I'm not really sure which is which.
> > I don't have any wheezing so maybe it's more of a stress issue. My nasal passageways swell up though and I can't breathe out of my nose. That part is from either allergens or possibly the dry heat inside this time of year. Then my chest gets really tight probably from stress/panic. I can feel myself clenching the muscles in my chest and I feel that I'm fighting to get air. I haven't wanted to take the selegilne for fear that it might make the situation worse.
> >
> -- Have you asked your GP if you can have some pulmonary function testing done? These tests would give you a pretty good idea if you have asthma. I suffer from bad sinuses, and have since my early 30s. When I first started experiencing problems, I had the same problem as you - my nasal passages would block right up and even my ears would get blocked like I was on an airplane. I remember experiencing a lot of anxiety and tightness in my chest, which did turn out to be panic because I could not breath through my nose. If you are really worried, however, try to get some pulmonary function tests done. Also, what I have found helps unblock the nasal passages is steaming my face. And, when it gets really bad, I put Vicks on my face when I go to bed. It seems to help unblock things.So you know exactly what I'm talking about! Unfortunately I don't have health insurance so I can't afford to see a doctor right now or get expensive tests. That's one way where Canada is much better than the U.S. I had this same problem many years ago and it eventually lead me to panic attacks. I got better from the panic disorder when I went on doxepin and the breathing issue seemed to disappear too. I'm now wondering if doxepin's norepinephrine reuptake inhibition might have had a positive effect on the breathing issue as well. I don't know enough about how it works but if the drug made more norepinephrine available outside of the brain, then that would make sense. Epinephrine is given for asthma to open up bronchial tubes. (Maybe I'll post something about that.)
> > Good luck with your new supplements. Be sure to report back on how they're working for you. (You never did try the Rhodiola, did you?)
>
> -- No, never did try the Rhodiola. Didn't want to take the chance using at the same time as a SSRI or now a TCA since my doctor was not too keen on it being combined. But, it's there for me to try when I decide to be more adventurous and throw caution to the wind.Hopefully what you're going to try now will work out well and you won't need to. If not, Dr. Richard Brown uses Rhodiola a lot in his practice and he has a book out on it now. He says that there are no "known" contraindications. You might want to check it out. I don't blame you for being cautious though.
> Take care. Hope you find some relief for your sinuses and the asthma.
Thanks. I think I'll use the steam and some aromtherapy (eucalyptus which would work like the Vicks) to help as well as caffeine. I might try yerba mate too. I think it has the caffeine as well but may be more tolerable in larger doses. (I once read something about it being unsafe in some way so I'd have to look into that one more first.)
Let us know how the NADH and DMAE work out.
Kara
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2004, at 11:21:51
In reply to Re: Acetyl L-Carnitine vs L-Carnitine » KaraS, posted by jujube on December 2, 2004, at 21:59:09
> As for the DMAE, I think it is a lost cause. I found the revised Food and Drugs Act schedules and DMAE is definately listed, so I guess I am SOL. I am going to see if any of my friends or even my dad will be going to the States soon and see if someone can pick some up for me. At least I got the NADH, so that's a start.
Where did you find them? The government sites are so difficult to navigate. Link, please?
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2004, at 11:28:10
In reply to Re: Acetyl L-Carnitine vs L-Carnitine » KaraS, posted by jujube on December 4, 2004, at 17:54:02
> > I saw your other post about how you can get the DMAE in Canada now. Yay! So ridiculous how they restrict such benign supplements!
>
> -- Ridiculous is right! The source from which I was able to get the DMAE said it had something to do with the pharmaceutical companies lobbying the government to have it prohibited. Whether that is true or not, I don't know. I know the woman I dealt with at this business told me that one of her customers has been giving her son DMAE and he now no longer needs to be on Ritalin. I seems to recall reading that DMAE used to be a prescription drug in Europe many years ago and went by the name Deanol (? spelling). I am looking forward to trying it.You could always just eat fish. Anchovies and sardines are particularly rich in it, I believe. And salmon, too.
Lar
Posted by jujube on December 10, 2004, at 12:03:39
In reply to Re: Acetyl L-Carnitine vs L-Carnitine » jujube, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2004, at 11:21:51
> > As for the DMAE, I think it is a lost cause. I found the revised Food and Drugs Act schedules and DMAE is definately listed, so I guess I am SOL. I am going to see if any of my friends or even my dad will be going to the States soon and see if someone can pick some up for me. At least I got the NADH, so that's a start.
>
> Where did you find them? The government sites are so difficult to navigate. Link, please?
>
> LarLarry,
Here is where I found the info that satisfied me that some over-zealous inspector had not made a mistake.
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hpfb-dgpsa/nhpd-dpsn/nhp_compliance_guide_parta_e.html
Tamara
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2004, at 13:56:55
In reply to Re: Acetyl L-Carnitine vs L-Carnitine » Larry Hoover, posted by jujube on December 10, 2004, at 12:03:39
> > > As for the DMAE, I think it is a lost cause. I found the revised Food and Drugs Act schedules and DMAE is definately listed, so I guess I am SOL. I am going to see if any of my friends or even my dad will be going to the States soon and see if someone can pick some up for me. At least I got the NADH, so that's a start.
> >
> > Where did you find them? The government sites are so difficult to navigate. Link, please?
> >
> > Lar
>
> Larry,
>
> Here is where I found the info that satisfied me that some over-zealous inspector had not made a mistake.
>
> http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hpfb-dgpsa/nhpd-dpsn/nhp_compliance_guide_parta_e.html
>
> TamaraI canna believe it. Tramadol isn't on the list. DMAE is.
Lar
Posted by jujube on December 10, 2004, at 14:23:38
In reply to Re: Acetyl L-Carnitine vs L-Carnitine » jujube, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2004, at 13:56:55
It boggles my mind!
I forget to include another Health Canada website in my previous message. It is the link to the Consolidation of the Food and Drugs Act and Food and Drugs Regulations (which you may already have).
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/food-aliment/friia-raaii/food_drugs-aliments_drogues/act-loi/e_index.html
Tamara
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2004, at 16:36:41
In reply to Re: Acetyl L-Carnitine vs L-Carnitine » Larry Hoover, posted by jujube on December 10, 2004, at 14:23:38
> It boggles my mind!
>
> I forget to include another Health Canada website in my previous message. It is the link to the Consolidation of the Food and Drugs Act and Food and Drugs Regulations (which you may already have).
>
> http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/food-aliment/friia-raaii/food_drugs-aliments_drogues/act-loi/e_index.html
>
> TamaraJust look at those URLs they come up with. It does boggle my mind. From now on, I'm sending you in there. There be ogres and gobblins, and you're braver than me.
Lar
This is the end of the thread.
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