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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 45. Go back in thread:
Posted by linkadge on November 11, 2004, at 10:46:25
In reply to Re: newsweek article on mental health.. » KaraS, posted by raybakes on November 11, 2004, at 4:39:48
Wow, I react the same way to stimulants, coffee, ritalin etc.
There would be two ways in theory to correct the problem. One being somehow downregulating the autoreceptors, and the second by taking a dopamine autoreceptor antagonist (unfortunately none are available at the time being)
If it was serotonin autoreceptor problem, you could take pindolol or lithium both potent serotonin autoreceptor antagonists.
Linkadge
Posted by KaraS on November 11, 2004, at 13:46:47
In reply to dopamine autoreceptor problem, posted by linkadge on November 11, 2004, at 10:46:25
>>> Wow, I react the same way to stimulants, coffee, ritalin etc.
>>> There would be two ways in theory to correct the problem. One being somehow downregulating the autoreceptors, and the second by taking a dopamine autoreceptor antagonist (unfortunately none are available at the time being)
>>> If it was serotonin autoreceptor problem, you could take pindolol or lithium both potent serotonin autoreceptor antagonists.
Hi linkadge,
Ironically, coffee is the only one of the stimulants/dopaminergics I've tried so far that I don't react paradoxically to (fortunately).
Yes, I recently read an abstract that said Parnate was able to downregulate DA autoreceptors in mice. I'm looking further into selegiline + DLPA also. Any other suggestions for meds that might do this?
Aren't Sulpiride and Amisulpride DA antagonists?
I had been trying to get more information about OSU6162 which is a drug in development but wasn't able to find out very much. I posted to the main board about it but got no response (at a time when JrBecker was posting so I doubt there's much going on with that medication right now).Dr. Goldstein suggests that desensitization can also occur by ""uncoupling," a loss of receptor signaling function." How that translates into treatment I don't know yet. (Do you?)
Are you completely lacking in motivation as I am? Are you anhedonic? I have bouts of this but overall haven't had complete anhedonia.
What are you doing/taking, if anything, to address this condition?Kara
Posted by linkadge on November 11, 2004, at 14:45:18
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » linkadge, posted by KaraS on November 11, 2004, at 13:46:47
Amisulpride is a dopamine autoreceptor antagonist. However, it also blocks some of the postsynaptic receptors. This kind of cancells out the effect. You get more dopamine but some of its targets are blocked. This is why it is more of a antipsychotic than antidepressant.
I would assume that increasing dopamine could desensitize the autoreceptor in the same way that SSRI's eventually desensitize the serotonin autoreceptor.
I would assume that selegeline would have a similar effect to parnate in this regard.
Right now I am just taking lithium, and epival, and coffee. Coffee really helps calm me down.
With regards to improving anhedonia, I exercise a LOT, and combine this with chocolate.Exercise itself can drastically raise levels of PEA in the brain. I am hoping that combining this with chocolate can deal a double whammy.
I live in canada, and not too many doctors have started experimenting with selegeline for depression.
Linkadge
Posted by KaraS on November 11, 2004, at 15:16:38
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem, posted by linkadge on November 11, 2004, at 14:45:18
> Amisulpride is a dopamine autoreceptor antagonist. However, it also blocks some of the postsynaptic receptors. This kind of cancells out the effect. You get more dopamine but some of its targets are blocked. This is why it is more of a antipsychotic than antidepressant.
I didn't realize that. Does that also pertain to low dose (under 200 mgs.) of Amisulpride when it's used for depression?
> I would assume that increasing dopamine could desensitize the autoreceptor in the same way that SSRI's eventually desensitize the serotonin autoreceptor.In that article by Dr. Goldstein he stated that it "pained" him to say it but there is no medication for this problem (other than that drug that seems to have died in development). Fortunately, Todd (King Vultan) mentioned that theoretically you ought to be able to downregulate these DA receptors in the same way that we do with SE receptors. Then I read a couple of abstracts that backed-up the theory.
> I would assume that selegeline would have a similar effect to parnate in this regard.
>
> Right now I am just taking lithium, and epival, and coffee. Coffee really helps calm me down.
> With regards to improving anhedonia, I exercise a LOT, and combine this with chocolate.
I thought you were taking an SSRI for some reason(?) I worry about taking those unopposed with dopamine. I wonder if long-term SSRI use could have created this DA autoreceptor hypersensitivity in my case. Do you have any thoughts on this?Strange to read about someone drinking coffee to calm down... but I guess it's no stranger than me using Ritalin as a sleeping pill.
> Exercise itself can drastically raise levels of PEA in the brain. I am hoping that combining this with chocolate can deal a double whammy.I've definitely got to do more of it...
> I live in canada, and not too many doctors have started experimenting with selegeline for depression.
There aren't that many in the U.S. that are open to it either. I think it's easier to try it on your own here.
> Linkadge
(comments interspersed above also)Thanks!!!!!! You have told me everything it has taken me months to figure out, clarified some things plus told me some other things that I hadn't figured out yet. I really appreciate it. You sound so sharp and clear these days. I can tell you are doing much better and I'm so glad.
Kara
Posted by linkadge on November 11, 2004, at 16:10:33
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » linkadge, posted by KaraS on November 11, 2004, at 15:16:38
I was taking celexa, but we dropped that.
Still trying to determine the pros and con's of SSRI's
Things should generally go back to the way they were after an SSRI discontinuation. It may take time, but I don't think they may any permanent changes.
I'm not sure of the actual binding of amisulpride. I do know it blocks the d2, and d3 receptors, it addition to blocking dopamine autoreceptors.
This would lead to enhaced dopamine functioning at the d1 receptor, but probably not much increase in dopamine at the d2/d3 receptors.
I would continue with the selegeline and PEA.
If your motivation/energy slowly improves over time then it is likely that the drug is indeed desensitizing the autoreceptor.Linkadge
Posted by KaraS on November 11, 2004, at 17:14:20
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem, posted by linkadge on November 11, 2004, at 16:10:33
Posted by KaraS on November 11, 2004, at 21:59:36
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem, posted by linkadge on November 11, 2004, at 16:10:33
> I was taking celexa, but we dropped that.
>
> Still trying to determine the pros and con's of SSRI's
>
> Things should generally go back to the way they were after an SSRI discontinuation. It may take time, but I don't think they may any permanent changes.
>
> I'm not sure of the actual binding of amisulpride. I do know it blocks the d2, and d3 receptors, it addition to blocking dopamine autoreceptors.
>
> This would lead to enhaced dopamine functioning at the d1 receptor, but probably not much increase in dopamine at the d2/d3 receptors.
>
> I would continue with the selegeline and PEA.
> If your motivation/energy slowly improves over time then it is likely that the drug is indeed desensitizing the autoreceptor.
>
> Linkadge
>I just happened to be come across this post (I wasn't even looking for it) with more info on Amisulpride and the autoreceptors. Ironically the post was written to you. Here's the relevant paragraph:
"I use Amisulpride which is also an antagonist of Dopamines D2/D3 receptors. But at the dose I am taking (very low) it has more affinity to presynaptic receptors (called autoreceptors). If these are blocked then the release of Dopamine gets ENHANCED. So this drug has contradictory effects at low/high doses..."
Here's the entire link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20040825/msgs/383713.html
I may try this down the line but I think my first step will still be the selegiline. If it eventually goes from putting me to sleep to waking me up, then I'll know that it is working. Hopefully it will have some effect on depression sooner.K
Posted by linkadge on November 12, 2004, at 15:58:19
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem - more info » linkadge, posted by KaraS on November 11, 2004, at 21:59:36
Hmm, thats something to consider.
A combination of amisulpride with a
DA drug, might produce a synergistic
effect.Linkadge
Posted by KaraS on November 12, 2004, at 21:52:15
In reply to Re: newsweek article on mental health.., posted by KaraS on November 8, 2004, at 23:29:01
Ray,
Here is the info on Jay Goldstein's most recent book. I'm copying part of a recent post by AndrewB:
"One side note: as you know effective treatment for fatigue states depends on the individual. The closest thing I've seen to a 'Rosetta Stone' for figuring out and treating fatigue states is "Tuning the Brain" by Jay A. Goldstein, M.D. All sorts of 'secret' concoctions are spelled out in there and the mechanisms behind why they work when they work, and an algorithm for subtyping yourself so you don't have to blindly try everything. I did like it when I read his lament that he didn't have access to sulpiride, because there was no US drug for dealing with situations of supersensitive DA autoreceptors in the NAc."
I'd really like to read that book. It's not at any of the local libraries yet though.
Kara
Posted by raybakes on November 13, 2004, at 12:49:57
In reply to Re: Latest Dr. Goldstein Book - Raybakes, posted by KaraS on November 12, 2004, at 21:52:15
Posted by KaraS on November 13, 2004, at 18:29:22
In reply to thanks Kara (nm) » KaraS, posted by raybakes on November 13, 2004, at 12:49:57
Could I have read a while back that fish oil can make neuro receptors more sensitive? (I could be confusing it with phosphatidylserine and/or ginkgo - or does this pertain to all of these?) If that's the case for the fish oil or these other supplements, then could I make my hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptor problem worse by taking any of them?
Posted by tealady on November 13, 2004, at 21:27:37
In reply to Fish oil make hypersensitive receptors worse?, posted by KaraS on November 13, 2004, at 18:28:14
> Could I have read a while back that fish oil can make neuro receptors more sensitive? (I could be confusing it with phosphatidylserine and/or ginkgo - or does this pertain to all of these?) If that's the case for the fish oil or these other supplements, then could I make my hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptor problem worse by taking any of them?
yes it tends to..but only by the effect of maybe "unblocking" receptors that needed to be unblocked..like correcting some resistance possibly. I know the unblocking type effects have been reported by individual users..don't know of any studies on it though.
It is only a positive.
Posted by KaraS on November 14, 2004, at 16:01:29
In reply to Fish oil » KaraS, posted by tealady on November 13, 2004, at 21:27:37
> > Could I have read a while back that fish oil can make neuro receptors more sensitive? (I could be confusing it with phosphatidylserine and/or ginkgo - or does this pertain to all of these?) If that's the case for the fish oil or these other supplements, then could I make my hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptor problem worse by taking any of them?
>
> yes it tends to..but only by the effect of maybe "unblocking" receptors that needed to be unblocked..like correcting some resistance possibly. I know the unblocking type effects have been reported by individual users..don't know of any studies on it though.
> It is only a positive.
I'm trying to figure out what unblocking means in terms of hypersensitive receptors. Does it mean that it prevents them from holding up too much of the neurotransmitter? In other words, does unblocking them mean that it forces the autoreceptors to push out more neurotransmitter? If so, it would definitely make sense for me to increase my dosage.I think I may have had an incredible insight just now. I was answering a post to JLx and I was talking about fish oil and the fact that I took a large dosage of good quality stuff years ago. I bought the stuff from the holistic doctor's office. At that time I was taking balanced omegas (not just EPO) for a skin rash problem. I didn't know anything about its positive effects against depression at the time. It didn't help at all for the skin problem and I ultimately stopped taking it. Around that same time or possibly a little later (wish I could remember exactly), I started taking Prozac. I got a good response from it for about a month (the only good AD response I've ever had) and then it pooped out. Now I'm wondering if the response I thought I had to Prozac was really a response to the fish oil. Maybe Prozac didn't poop out after one month. Maybe it never worked at all and the poop out was more a response to stopping the fish oil? Wish I knew exactly what the time frame was for all of this. It would probably be easier just to try the fish oil again rather than try to go back and figure out the past. Hmmmm. Lots to think about now.
Thanks Jan!
Kara
Posted by tealady on November 15, 2004, at 3:19:13
In reply to Re: newsweek article on mental health.. » sabre, posted by KaraS on November 10, 2004, at 0:58:16
> > Hi Kara
> > No, I don't have ADD or CFS but I was curious about the hypersensitive dopamine receptors. The combination of ADD and CFA sounds miserable.
>
> I don't know that I have ADD. I only mentioned ADD because some who react paradoxically to stimulants have that - but they get calmed and can think more clearly on stimulants. For me, I just get put to sleep. Wish they did make me think more clearly.
>I go to sleep whenever I relax a little ..it showed on an EEG :) so its either tense in the sides of my head or asleep..hence my jax tends to ache sometimes and I get TMG? think that's it
> I also only get attacks of CFS when I get run down so I'm not in bad shape like when I first got it many years ago.
>
> > Have you tried reducing your dosage of the stimulant/dopaminergic to see if you get the required response at a lower dosage?
>
> Yes, I've tried very small amounts of stimulants.
> It's the higher doses that I haven't tried.
>
> > I have found around 1/4 of the suggested therapeutic dosage seems right for me for the drugs I have tried. If you could then increase it very very gradually so you sneak up on the receptors.
> >
> > The other suggestion would be to try alternative supplements for a period to perhaps begin the task of toning the receptors down.
>
> What supplements are you thinking of besides tyrosine? I tried that and it did nothing for me at all and I started low and went up to nearly 4,000 mg. a day.
>
>
when you tried tyrosine ..di you try the straight l-tyroine posder ..or say Thorne RESearch l-tyrsoine capsules..something not too mixed with binders, fillers etc.
It made a big difference with me.(the tablets had little effect)
Also did you take the tyrosine by itself early n the morning a least say 30 min b4 any food or even a cuppa.(preferably an hour b4 since you are hypo)..like take it if you get up in the early morning for a toilet break..say 4am or 5am?(that's when I take my first lot med meds)That makes a difference also.
Jan
Posted by KaraS on November 15, 2004, at 8:09:04
In reply to Re: newsweek article on mental health.. » KaraS, posted by tealady on November 15, 2004, at 3:19:13
> > > Hi Kara
> > > No, I don't have ADD or CFS but I was curious about the hypersensitive dopamine receptors. The combination of ADD and CFA sounds miserable.
> >
> > I don't know that I have ADD. I only mentioned ADD because some who react paradoxically to stimulants have that - but they get calmed and can think more clearly on stimulants. For me, I just get put to sleep. Wish they did make me think more clearly.
> >
>
> I go to sleep whenever I relax a little ..it showed on an EEG :) so its either tense in the sides of my head or asleep..hence my jax tends to ache sometimes and I get TMG? think that's it
>
>
> > I also only get attacks of CFS when I get run down so I'm not in bad shape like when I first got it many years ago.
> >
> > > Have you tried reducing your dosage of the stimulant/dopaminergic to see if you get the required response at a lower dosage?
> >
> > Yes, I've tried very small amounts of stimulants.
> > It's the higher doses that I haven't tried.
> >
> > > I have found around 1/4 of the suggested therapeutic dosage seems right for me for the drugs I have tried. If you could then increase it very very gradually so you sneak up on the receptors.
> > >
> > > The other suggestion would be to try alternative supplements for a period to perhaps begin the task of toning the receptors down.
> >
> > What supplements are you thinking of besides tyrosine? I tried that and it did nothing for me at all and I started low and went up to nearly 4,000 mg. a day.
> >
> >
> when you tried tyrosine ..di you try the straight l-tyroine posder ..or say Thorne RESearch l-tyrsoine capsules..something not too mixed with binders, fillers etc.
> It made a big difference with me.(the tablets had little effect)
> Also did you take the tyrosine by itself early n the morning a least say 30 min b4 any food or even a cuppa.(preferably an hour b4 since you are hypo)..like take it if you get up in the early morning for a toilet break..say 4am or 5am?(that's when I take my first lot med meds)
>
> That makes a difference also.
>
>
> JanYes, I took the l-tyrosine at least 45 minutes before food. I also took the B vitamin that is supposed to potentiate it. The brand I took was Ecological Formulas (in capsule form) - an excellent brand. I followed the directions as prescribed by Dr. Priscilla Slagle to a T. Still no benefit whatsoever.
If I do try tyrosine again, it will only be the Norival version.
I still owe some more replies on this board but I have to get ready for work. Talk to you later.
Have a good day.Kara
Posted by tealady on November 19, 2004, at 20:13:41
In reply to newsweek article on mental health.., posted by raybakes on November 8, 2004, at 7:21:47
> Interesting article on infection and the mind...
>
> 'Diseases of the Mind
> Bacteria, viruses and parasites may cause mental illnesses like depression and perhaps even autism and anorexia'
>
> http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3540627
>
>Hi Ray,
Still going thru old posts I was going to reply to :-)I knew about lyme..a lot of folk on the British thyroid board have been looking at it..the depression is one part of it.
There's a doc in England (or probably a few) who is into treating it I think.
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroiduk/messages?msg=2092.1 (I think)
It's a long treatment ..like months or years..and I don't recall any real successes but maybe I didn't follow it enough...or maybe the treatment isn't over as yet.I tried doxycycline for 6 weeks myself this year..continuing for a few weeks when was in Britain. (my excuse was a malaria preventative, when I was in a high malaria area) I felt terrific on it after a while, but in the end my teeth seemed to be going brown and cracking..not sure if it was related or not..but I stopped.
Ya know what..the only time in my life I had a clear nasal passage was when I was in Britain..so is this the doxycycline or maybe just the eucalypts? Was interesting anyway. I was put on antihistamines at birth to allow me to feed :)
Nasal passages reblocked about 1 hr after I landed back in Oz.
Re Strep..yes, I always suspected it would..I personally blame the "don't give an antibiotic until we see if you can fight it doctrine"..(gee penicillin is all that is needed )
Could rave on about what this has caused for a long time..but I'm sure everyone would think I'm nuts.(hmm guess they already do?)
I've been waiting for medicine field to wake up..I suspect they might be a little?also similar thing for psoriasis, maybe a lot of autoimmune problems..works similar to rheumatic fever...
hey that doesn't exist in our modern society? It still exists in outback Oz amongst aboriginal communities, and they have tried vaccinating all the kids with penicillin injections ..only one problem with this..the injections are painful and after the first couple the kids wake up and disappear into the bush when they see the docs coming...docs/researchers haven't heard of a reward system it appears.
If the do come down with rheumatic fever..from the strep throat, then they get treated with penicillin shots every month for years to prevent any outbreaks and it seems to work for those willing to undergo the injections.In my theory at least it works similarly.
Somehow the bacteria must allow the viruses etc to be worse..and when I go to the docs I just get ..its a virus..nothing I can do, and yet, if I treat with penicillin within the first day or two, I don't come down with any virus or depression..or worsening of autoimmune, daughter doesn't break out in psoriasis..don't get the very high temps or the arthritic like pain(with her it was called psoriatic arthritis) thru body or the depression...nor isn't this strange??
If untreated it last months.I know bacteriaphages aren't supposed to get humans ..but would this maybe be what is happening? or is it that our immune system just gets weakened?
All I know is that if the bacteria in the strep throat don't get the penicillin , and the temp goes high ..then it all starts. With my daughter it all began at age 10- with very high temps for a week or so..then the rashes started..then the arthritis etc..then they said it was arthritis. After the first time, comeback outbreaks(called its just a virus by docs) happen fairly often..and if immediately treated with penicillin all is fine,, if not..the spots, aches and pain, fatigue, depression flares again..lasts months....no obvious infection there..and yet the penicillin works to prevent it.
By the time the strep throat looks bad enough to treat..its too late.and I know we all have strep there all the time.
I've put myself on penicillin about 3 times this year..and stayed well, instead of the months of illness...including the depression. Wish I could qualify for the monthly injections for a trial for a couple of years.
Well all this is only my (probably wrong) opinion and what I've observed over the past 8 years or so.
Jan (hope this makes sense..I feel less literate than usual at present)> also a book on chronic fatigue and the limbic system..
>
> http://www.haworthpress.com/store/product.asp?sku=0178
>
> Ray
Posted by tealady on November 24, 2004, at 19:08:46
In reply to Re: newsweek article on mental health.. » raybakes, posted by tealady on November 19, 2004, at 20:13:41
lyme..another link
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=63558.10
and few posts after in that thread ..included is following link too
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ME-CFS-FMS_infections
Jan
(not sure if you got previous post this links to..board was very full at that time :)
Posted by tealady on November 29, 2004, at 16:45:52
In reply to Re: newsweek article on mental health.. » raybakes, posted by tealady on November 19, 2004, at 20:13:41
Posted by raybakes on November 30, 2004, at 4:27:05
In reply to Re: newsweek article ..bit more added » tealady, posted by tealady on November 24, 2004, at 19:08:46
> lyme..another link
> http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=63558.10
> and few posts after in that thread ..included is following link too
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ME-CFS-FMS_infections
> Jan
> (not sure if you got previous post this links to..board was very full at that time :)Thanks, useful links....have heard that lymes can be implicated in MS too...
Ray
Posted by raybakes on November 30, 2004, at 6:59:49
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » linkadge, posted by KaraS on November 11, 2004, at 15:16:38
Hi Kara,
Have been taking hawthorn for the last couple of days and get a brain effect similar to when I eat chocolate or have DLPA - I notice it's a phosphodiesterase inhibitor like chocolate too. Phosphodiesterase inhibition should raise Cyclic AMP - would that be good or bad for you?
"autoreceptor regulation of tyrosine hydroxylase must occur through a decrease in cyclic AMP levels."
http://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/29/6/561
Uncoupling of tyrosine hydroxylase sounds like the metabolic pathway has been disconnected - low biopterin has been mentioned in conection with uncoupling - and folate has been mentioned in studies to resist uncoupling and biopterin degradation.
When biopterin becomes 'uncoupled' from tyrosine hydroxylase, it can produce free radicals such as hydrogen peroxide.
Ray
Posted by raybakes on November 30, 2004, at 12:12:33
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » KaraS, posted by raybakes on November 30, 2004, at 6:59:49
> Hi Kara,
looked up hydrogen peroxide and dopamine and found this abstract that says that H202 can inhibit dopamine release..H(2)O(2) is a novel, endogenous modulator of synaptic dopamine release.
Just interested in the H2O2 produced by tyrosine hydroxylase when it lacks it's co factors.
ray
Posted by tealady on November 30, 2004, at 18:04:48
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » KaraS, posted by raybakes on November 30, 2004, at 6:59:49
> Have been taking hawthorn for the last couple of days and get a brain effect similar to when I eat chocolate or have DLPA - I notice it's a phosphodiesterase inhibitor like chocolate too. Phosphodiesterase inhibition should raise Cyclic AMP - would that be good or bad for you?
>> Uncoupling of tyrosine hydroxylase sounds like the metabolic pathway has been disconnected - low biopterin has been mentioned in conection with uncoupling - and folate has been mentioned in studies to resist uncoupling and biopterin degradation.
>
> When biopterin becomes 'uncoupled' from tyrosine hydroxylase, it can produce free radicals such as hydrogen peroxide.
>But Ray eating chocolate is much more fun!
this is kinda getting back to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040928/msgs/404204.html
with BH4.
Think I meant that post for you as well :-)Have you found any good biopterin? Is it still norival (n-acetyl tyrosine and biopterin that you mention) in http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040901/msgs/386715.html
Also what did you end up taking to produce glutathione (if you worked anything out :-)
Sorry for all the questions
Jan
Posted by raybakes on December 1, 2004, at 12:06:21
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » raybakes, posted by tealady on November 30, 2004, at 18:04:48
>
> But Ray eating chocolate is much more fun!
>
> this is kinda getting back to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040928/msgs/404204.html
> with BH4.
> Think I meant that post for you as well :-)Thanks Jan, that abstract on supporting biopterin metabolism being as effective as an antioxidant makes sense.
>
> Have you found any good biopterin? Is it still norival (n-acetyl tyrosine and biopterin that you mention) in http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040901/msgs/386715.htmlNo, still using Norival with a little biopterin in it - haven't found a source with only biopterin yet.
> Also what did you end up taking to produce glutathione (if you worked anything out :-)Thiodox works really well for glutathione, I just have to make sure I've got plenty of methyl factors and donors other wise the NAC upsets me.
Ray
Posted by KaraS on December 1, 2004, at 22:39:24
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » KaraS, posted by raybakes on November 30, 2004, at 6:59:49
> Hi Kara,
>
> Have been taking hawthorn for the last couple of days and get a brain effect similar to when I eat chocolate or have DLPA - I notice it's a phosphodiesterase inhibitor like chocolate too. Phosphodiesterase inhibition should raise Cyclic AMP - would that be good or bad for you?
>> "autoreceptor regulation of tyrosine hydroxylase must occur through a decrease in cyclic AMP levels."
>
> http://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/29/6/561
>
> Uncoupling of tyrosine hydroxylase sounds like the metabolic pathway has been disconnected - low biopterin has been mentioned in conection with uncoupling - and folate has been mentioned in studies to resist uncoupling and biopterin degradation.
>
> When biopterin becomes 'uncoupled' from tyrosine hydroxylase, it can produce free radicals such as hydrogen peroxide.
>
> Ray
>Dunno if hawthorne would be good for me or not. From the article you attached it seems that Cyclic AMP activates the tyroxine hydroxylase (which I'm assuming helps to create more dopamine). In the long run that's good I think because you want to flood the synapses with dopamine to force downregulation. The article is too far over my head to say for sure though.
Thanks for thinking of me. If you find out anything more about it, please let me know.
Kara
Posted by KaraS on December 1, 2004, at 22:49:42
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » raybakes, posted by raybakes on November 30, 2004, at 12:12:33
> > Hi Kara,
>
> looked up hydrogen peroxide and dopamine and found this abstract that says that H202 can inhibit dopamine release..
>
> H(2)O(2) is a novel, endogenous modulator of synaptic dopamine release.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11387393&dopt=Abstract
>
> Just interested in the H2O2 produced by tyrosine hydroxylase when it lacks it's co factors.
>
> ray
>Never heard of H2O2 (ROS) before. The abstract says that it's a "modulator" of dopamine release. That doesn't necessarily mean inhibition though, does it?
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