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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 51. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jasmineneroli on November 12, 2004, at 7:42:06
I'm enjoying pretty good success with a combo of .5mg klonopin and 1250-1500mg L-Tryptophan, 10 days after discontinuing Celexa. (I switched immediately from Celexa to Trypt.)
I have no side effects from the Trypt (unlike the Celexa), but am still waiting for the sexual SE's to subside...I'm not sure if they're still there because of the lingering effect of Celexa, or if the Tryptophan is causing them to continue.
Without being too impatient ;), I'm wondering if it is safe for me to take a very low dose (say 2.5 - 5mg) of Selegiline daily???????
Since I still have a bit of slowness in waking up in the a.m. (but not as bad as on Celexa) I think that Selegiline would help with that too.
Is there a risk of any negative interactions with this group? Any Ser. Syndrome possiblities?
I feel I'm almost at the perfect solution....any comments?
Thanks,
Jas
Posted by MKB on November 12, 2004, at 7:42:07
In reply to Can I mix selegiline, with L-tryptophan safely?, posted by jasmineneroli on November 10, 2004, at 22:51:05
All I can say is that I've only been taking 500 mg of Tryptophan each night for a couple of weeks, and I can't remember ever feeling so good in my entire life. I have no complaints. The main reason I'm taking the low dosage is strictly for financial reasons. I don't want to spend more money than I need to. If I need to try a higher dose, I will. In the last week I also added Omega 3 fish oil and a multivitamin.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 12, 2004, at 7:42:07
In reply to Can I mix selegiline, with L-tryptophan safely?, posted by jasmineneroli on November 10, 2004, at 22:51:05
> I'm enjoying pretty good success with a combo of .5mg klonopin and 1250-1500mg L-Tryptophan, 10 days after discontinuing Celexa. (I switched immediately from Celexa to Trypt.)
> I have no side effects from the Trypt (unlike the Celexa), but am still waiting for the sexual SE's to subside...I'm not sure if they're still there because of the lingering effect of Celexa, or if the Tryptophan is causing them to continue.
> Without being too impatient ;), I'm wondering if it is safe for me to take a very low dose (say 2.5 - 5mg) of Selegiline daily???????
> Since I still have a bit of slowness in waking up in the a.m. (but not as bad as on Celexa) I think that Selegiline would help with that too.
> Is there a risk of any negative interactions with this group? Any Ser. Syndrome possiblities?
> I feel I'm almost at the perfect solution....any comments?
> Thanks,
> JasI don't see any overt concern about interactions or serotonin syndrome from adding in selegiline at those doses.
Your caution is exemplary. If you hold e.g. 2.5 mg selegiline under the tongue, there's a pretty good rate of absorption across the sublingual skin.
Lar
Posted by geno on November 12, 2004, at 7:42:07
In reply to Can I mix selegiline, with L-tryptophan safely?, posted by jasmineneroli on November 10, 2004, at 22:51:05
Jasmiroli, you say you switched from celexa to L-Tryptophan? Recently, Iv tried to switch off lexapro 10mg, down to 5mg for a week then maybe 3 days of half of that, and added 5-HTP. Well as soon as i cut it off, I began getting those electric shocks through my head. BOY i hate them. I guess because iv been on Zoloft to Lexapro for 3 yrs and my brain cant ajust. Now i remember a pdoc telling me you may have to like cut it down to 5mg for a month, then down to 2.5 for another month, then stop. Well all that pill choppin, i said no.
So i just take 10mg of lexapro, and 50mg of 5-HTP at night, with no problem. I cant notice any big mood improvement, but what I feel is, OK, Lexapro is an SSRI, so its blocking the reuptake of available seratonin being released from the presynaptic nerve cell. So, Adding 5HTP, or even L-Tryptophan, which are precursor to serotonin, resulting in more Serotonin available in the Nerve, then more Serotonin will be available in the synapse due to the reuptake blockade from lexapro,if you think about it, it might be positive.
Now there are so many articles on L-TRYPTOPHAN and 5HTP. One said L-Tryptophan is better, another says because L-Tryptophan is a precursor to 5-HTP, 5-HTP is superior.
Well since L-Tryptophan is banned and 5-HTP is sold over the counter, and L-Tryptophan is not being goverened so no money is being made, most natural articles boost up 5-HTP. Resulting that in reality L-TRYPTOPHAN is much better.
Its acutally sold as a PET Medication for depression for your dog! LOL. BUt really , come on now! But i do have a few great books on 5-HTP from Doctors who claim its just as good or better than ssri's. Maybe you (or i) need like 200mg, because i never went above 100mg, and i dont want to risk 100mg or more taking lexapro.IF anyone has taken both, and had good results with any, post. THats funny, L-Tryptophan is an amino acid and its banned because of the Problem in the late 1980s due to contamination that in reality did not directy come from L-Tryptophan itself.
geno
Posted by Hattree on November 12, 2004, at 7:42:08
In reply to Re: Can I mix selegiline, with L-tryptophan safely?, posted by geno on November 11, 2004, at 8:48:30
I used to take L-Tryptophan as a sleep aid before it was banned. Does 5-HTP help with sleep also?
Can L-Tryp be legally obtained somewhere?
Posted by ed_uk on November 12, 2004, at 7:42:08
In reply to Re: Does 5HTP help w/sleep also?, posted by Hattree on November 11, 2004, at 9:11:22
Hi!
Tryptophan is available in the UK on prescription only. The trade name is Optimax. It comes as 500mg tablets and is manufactured by Merck.
It is 'restricted to use by hospital specialists only for patients with severe and disabling depressive illness of more than 2 years continuous duration, only after an adequate trial of standard antidepressant drug treatment, and only as an adjunct to other antidepressant medication.'
In order for a doctor to be able to legally prescribe Tryptophan, the 'Patient and prescriber must be registered with the Optimax® Information and Clinical Support (OPTICS) Unit (Tel 0845 7626902). A safety questionnaire is sent to the prescriber after 3 and 6 months of treatment and every 6 months thereafter. The information is reviewed by the CSM—it is important that the questionnaires should be completed.'Ed
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 12, 2004, at 7:42:09
In reply to Re: Does 5HTP help w/sleep also?, posted by Hattree on November 11, 2004, at 9:11:22
> I used to take L-Tryptophan as a sleep aid before it was banned. Does 5-HTP help with sleep also?
>
> Can L-Tryp be legally obtained somewhere?Source link at top of page, follow the thread at the bottom for rationale.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031023/msgs/275718.html
Tryptophan has been legal for use as a supplement in the US since 1994. The ban was lifted, but it just never got any publicity.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031023/msgs/275716.html
As far as I know, tryptophan has been legal for OTC sales in Canada since January 2004.
I've been importing veterinary tryptophan into Canada since long before that.
Lar
Posted by MKB on November 12, 2004, at 7:42:09
In reply to Re: Does 5HTP help w/sleep also?, posted by Hattree on November 11, 2004, at 9:11:22
Yes, you can purchase it legally at www.healthrecovery.com. I've posted quite a bit about it because I know people are not aware that it IS legal now. And it works...so far.
Posted by MKB on November 12, 2004, at 7:42:09
In reply to Re: Availability of Tryptophan, posted by ed_uk on November 11, 2004, at 9:59:16
That is so strange to me. Seems like L-Tryptophan should be the FIRST resort, not the LAST resort. I hope the word gets out that it is legal in the U.S. and it does work. Maybe then people will stop suffering from some of the very real harmful effects of antidepressants. I've used 5 different ones, so I know whereof I speak. My opinion... Tryptophan should always be tried first unless an individual is suffering Major Depression. And I'm not sure anyone other than psychiatrists should be prescribing antidepressants at all.
Posted by jasmineneroli on November 12, 2004, at 7:42:10
In reply to Re: Availability of Tryptophan » ed_uk, posted by MKB on November 11, 2004, at 17:06:12
Hi Everyone:
My Pdoc (I'm in Canada) prescribed L-Tryptophan for me, since I've had side effects to all classes of AD's that I've tried (2 SSRI's, SNRI, RIMA, Remeron). This is pharmaceutical grade tryptophan, made in Canada. I'm assuming that it maybe superior to any health food OTC brand. At least in terms of guaranteed content ("purity" & accurate amount, which is important for accurate dosing).
My Pdoc believes it's more effective than 5htp, simply because it's a pharmaceutical grade. We had a very good discussion about alternate therapies. He thinks that many good (effective) substances, have not been given a true trial, and used as treatments by doctors, because so many of the OTC health food products have been shown to have huge variances in ACTUAL content (he cited St. John's Wort and 5htp). And the fillers used have actually prevented adequate absorption etc. Without a reliable, tested content, he maintains, most studies on their efficacy cannot be trusted.In other words, the 5htp that Mary has bought in Illinois, doesn't compare to the 5htp that Joe bought in Toronto.
Whilst the industry is unregulated, it will be hard to find doctors to support the use of these products, because they don't fit the scientific model doctors are used to. MKB may well be right in his caution.
I recommend L-Tryptophan as an alternative, but I believe it should be prescribed (if possible).Veterinarian grade is probably as reliable! I think 5htp might be too "hit and miss".
Jas
BTW: Yes, the Trypt. is helping with my sleep.
Posted by jasmineneroli on November 12, 2004, at 7:42:10
In reply to Re: Can I mix selegiline, with L-tryptophan safely? » jasmineneroli, posted by Larry Hoover on November 11, 2004, at 8:31:47
Thanks Lar:
Yes, I am cautious (that's one of the *GOOD* parts of GAD - a bit of worrying and ruminating might prevent a few disasters ;)!).
I'm still feeling fairly good on the Trypt. & Klon. So I would like to try to move to "almost" perfect, with the Selegiline!!How are you doing, btw?
Regards,
Jas
Posted by jasmineneroli on November 12, 2004, at 7:42:11
In reply to Re: Availability of Tryptophan, posted by ed_uk on November 11, 2004, at 9:59:16
Ed,
Why the rigorous controls and follow up, in the UK?
As I post lower down the thread, I've been prescribed a pharmaceutical grade Tryptophan by my Pdoc, here in Canada. It's manufactured by Apo. But we have no such strict follow-ups.The original N.American ban on OTC Trypt. was due to ONE bad batch of pills, manufactured in Japan, with a contaminated filler. (One, or more people died, several became ill). This was in the early 1990's I believe. The L-Tryptophan itself was later found to be safe, and the ban was lifted.
Taking a health food store product can be a risk, in terms of purity or quality.All the best,
Jas
Posted by jasmineneroli on November 12, 2004, at 7:42:11
In reply to Re: Can I mix selegiline, with L-tryptophan safely?, posted by geno on November 11, 2004, at 8:48:30
Hi Geno:
I'm not sure how many mg of 5htp compares to the 1250mg L-Tryptophan I take. As you will see by other posts further down this thread, I was PRESCRIBED my Tryptophan by my Pdoc, and it is pharmaceutical grade. So it's content is guaranteed. It's a problem for 5htp, that you never know how much you're actually getting (no matter what it says on the bottle!!). Because the health supplement industry is mostly unregulated.I was able to just stop the Celexa and switch to the Tryptophan, because my Pdoc knew how much I was getting. He told me people responded differently to dosages (same as with regular meds) and I could start by taking anywhere between 500-1500mg per night.
I think it's a bit risky to suddenly lower your Lexapro and take 5htp as well. I may be a worrier, but I'd be concerned about Serotonin Syndrome. I don't know how potent 5htp at 50mg might be though. Even if it was guaranteed to be 50mg!!!
I got the brain zaps too!!! Don't you hate them?
Only one or two, for the first few nights, though.
Maybe your doctor will prescribe L-Tryptophan if you ask?
Good luck and take care.
Jas
Posted by MKB on November 12, 2004, at 7:42:11
In reply to Tryptophan was prescribed by my Pdoc, posted by jasmineneroli on November 12, 2004, at 0:08:28
MKB is a she!
You can purchase pharmaceutical grade L-Tryptophan from www.healthrecovery.com.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 12, 2004, at 7:42:12
In reply to Re: Can I mix selegiline, with L-tryptophan safely? » Larry Hoover, posted by jasmineneroli on November 12, 2004, at 0:14:03
> Thanks Lar:
> Yes, I am cautious (that's one of the *GOOD* parts of GAD - a bit of worrying and ruminating might prevent a few disasters ;)!).I always try to look at things in a positive light. Anxiety is protective.
> I'm still feeling fairly good on the Trypt. & Klon. So I would like to try to move to "almost" perfect, with the Selegiline!!
Sounds like a plan.
> How are you doing, btw?
> Regards,
> JasMy own selegeline experiment may have to end. I get side-effects all too often, sometimes the really rare ones. This time it's GERD. Horrible reflux problem, and worsening of my bronchial air flow. Before selegiline, I had not had to deal with GERD in years, and my asthma was much less of a problem than it had been in years. I'm going off it for a bit, to see if there's a link or a coincidence.
Otherwise doing well, thanks.
Lar
Posted by ed_uk on November 12, 2004, at 7:42:13
In reply to Re: Availability of Tryptophan » ed_uk, posted by jasmineneroli on November 12, 2004, at 0:23:11
Hello...
Ever since the health scare about Tryptophan and the eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome, tryptophan has never been popular in England. After the withdrawal of Tryptophan, the UK Medicines Control Agency reintroduced Tryptophan for restricted use only. I think they were probably overcautious, just in case it turned out that there really was a major problem with Tryptophan.
Ed
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 12, 2004, at 10:21:07
In reply to Re: Tryptophan and the UK, posted by ed_uk on November 12, 2004, at 7:38:53
> Hello...
> Ever since the health scare about Tryptophan and the eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome, tryptophan has never been popular in England. After the withdrawal of Tryptophan, the UK Medicines Control Agency reintroduced Tryptophan for restricted use only. I think they were probably overcautious, just in case it turned out that there really was a major problem with Tryptophan.
> EdJust for thoroughness.....the contaminant in that trytophan arose because of two extraordinary circumstances. The Japanese manufacturer was using a novel fermentation process to concentrate the tryptophan, and, they performed fewer purification steps than were reasonable. The EMS-triggering contaminant was a never before described modified tryptophan dimer. As the particular strain of microbe used in this process has been destroyed, and manufacturers are now thoroughly purifying and analysing every batch of tryptophan before release from the factory, I cannot believe this sort of thing could ever happen again.
Lar
Posted by ed_uk on November 12, 2004, at 11:13:27
In reply to Re: Tryptophan and the UK » ed_uk, posted by Larry Hoover on November 12, 2004, at 10:21:07
Lar, I worked in a Pharmacy over the summer and never once saw a prescription for Tryptophan. I checked the computer records and it seems that Tryptophan had never been dispensed from that Pharmacy! It's difficult to believe that such tight restrictions on Tryptophan prescribing/monitoring are necessary. As a result it's hardly ever used. It's bizarre that most ADs are prescribed so freely and Optimax is so difficult to get hold of.
Ed
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 12, 2004, at 11:59:58
In reply to Re: Tryptophan and the UK, posted by ed_uk on November 12, 2004, at 11:13:27
> Lar, I worked in a Pharmacy over the summer and never once saw a prescription for Tryptophan. I checked the computer records and it seems that Tryptophan had never been dispensed from that Pharmacy! It's difficult to believe that such tight restrictions on Tryptophan prescribing/monitoring are necessary. As a result it's hardly ever used. It's bizarre that most ADs are prescribed so freely and Optimax is so difficult to get hold of.
> EdBizarre, but certainly a policy decision, rather than a scientific on, non?
Lar
Posted by jasmineneroli on November 12, 2004, at 19:17:19
In reply to Re: Tryptophan was prescribed by my Pdoc, posted by MKB on November 12, 2004, at 0:54:02
Posted by TeeJay on November 12, 2004, at 19:35:40
In reply to Re: Tryptophan and the UK » ed_uk, posted by Larry Hoover on November 12, 2004, at 11:59:58
Lar,
You have to live in the UK to believe the nannying we have to put up with by the state these days!!
Trying to obtain Geoxy132 (organic germanium) is like beating ones head against a brick wall too as its "highly toxic" even though the governments OWN sponsored tests show it is not (I'll dig out the website with the full test report if anyone wants it).
You'll like this one too.....some government body are currently discussing rules to have a maximum number of revolutions a roundabout can make to prevent accidents to children; I kid you not!!!
TJ (subject of Herr Blair)
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 12, 2004, at 20:49:07
In reply to Re: Tryptophan and the UK, posted by TeeJay on November 12, 2004, at 19:35:40
> Lar,
>
> You have to live in the UK to believe the nannying we have to put up with by the state these days!!Oh, but it's for your own good. Then you can wait 18 months for formal care under the NHS.
What I don't grasp is why e.g. selenium supplementation has not become an important public policy initiative. The soil of the British Isles is virtually devoid of selenium; one direct effect of selenium deficiency is depression of mood.
Near as I can tell, they won't do it because it might be toxic, even though the toxic threshold is many times the net food and supplement intake that ought to be had. They'd rather you used Paxil, I guess.
Lar
Posted by TeeJay on November 12, 2004, at 20:59:22
In reply to Re: Tryptophan and the UK » TeeJay, posted by Larry Hoover on November 12, 2004, at 20:49:07
The way we are going Lar, we'll have more drugs in our drinking water than nutrients soon :-(
I'm glad you brought up the subject of selenium. I've taken it on and off for a couple of years now to try and combat all the damage I caused by 20 years of smoking, and more importantly recently as I've discovered cancer in my family. Anyway, i've been feeling really rather rough lately (very depressed and MASSIVELY irritable and argumentative (not that Dr Bob would notice! LOL)) but since i've ceased the selenium I seem to have improved somewhat. Any clues as I can find nothing on the net which suggests such a contrary reaction (although I seem to react poorly to virtually anything I try these days).
TJ
Posted by tealady on November 13, 2004, at 3:54:48
In reply to Re: Tryptophan and the UK » Larry Hoover, posted by TeeJay on November 12, 2004, at 20:59:22
>
> The way we are going Lar, we'll have more drugs in our drinking water than nutrients soon :-(
>Well I started collecting my own drinking water and must admit that has improved me more than any other one thing I have taken..although I still get a lot of of the polluted govt water(maybe 3l a day instead of 6 + bath/shower water)
I figure drinking 6 litres of heavily fluoridated water a day put me way over the limit..(1.5*6= 9 )of whatever the units are...(ppb?) and more that likely it wasn't just physcological that I felt better whenever I was away from Sydney.>
> I'm glad you brought up the subject of selenium. I've taken it on and off for a couple of years now to try and combat all the damage I caused by 20 years of smoking, and more importantly recently as I've discovered cancer in my family. Anyway, i've been feeling really rather rough lately (very depressed and MASSIVELY irritable and argumentative (not that Dr Bob would notice! LOL)) but since i've ceased the selenium I seem to have improved somewhat. Any clues as I can find nothing on the net which suggests such a contrary reaction (although I seem to react poorly to virtually anything I try these days).
>
> TJ
>
>I know selenium in the soil has been discussed in the Brit Parliament (put the paper somewhere on here).. and it looked like your govt opted for the option of Prozac in the drinking water instead http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3545684.stm
(that's been discussed on here too)Well I guess I felt relaxed over there but then maybe tourists tend to get withdrawal symptoms when they get home..hmmmm maybe its a ploy to get tourist return and not merely a cheaper and easier implementation of citizen "calming".
I think your possible selenium reaction is worth noting..especially as I might have experienced the same thing.
Maybe it should be a new posting ..but I haven't heard of anyone else experiencing it?
I think it's probably a combo thing..like maybe high acetylcholine and selenium combined??..dreadful whatever the cause.
Glad the selenium reduction seems to be helping.
I'm feeling a lot better since keeping off it and the brazil nuts too..and dropping the soy lecithin.(I can't even remeber what ese i dropped now..and it was only a few days ago!)> You'll like this one too.....some government body are currently discussing rules to have a maximum number of revolutions a roundabout can make to prevent accidents to children; I kid you not!!!
>
> TJ (subject of Herr Blair)Does that mean you can't keep driving round and round on the roundabouts trying to figure out which exit to take..when 3 out of 7 exits are labelled with the same town and 2 have no labels? ..or does that mean they are actually going to restrict the no of roundabouts they build in a row. So when following directions like turn left at the roundabout.. which REALLY when decoded means turn left at the 6th roundabout and not the most left exit(everyone should KNOW that's not the one)..but the 2nd left one, sigh
yes I can see how children would be safer(and not only children:)...what are they planning on doing instead?
The govt over here was talking about declaring oestrogen illegal I thought I heard sometime a couple of years ago.. I was beginning to feel like I was illegal or something :) Then I didn't here any more about it..
Jan
Posted by tealady on November 13, 2004, at 4:20:00
In reply to Re: Tryptophan and the UK » Larry Hoover, posted by TeeJay on November 12, 2004, at 20:59:22
>
> The way we are going Lar, we'll have more drugs in our drinking water than nutrients soon :-(
>Well I started collecting my own drinking water and must admit that has improved me more than any other one thing I have taken..although I still get a lot of of the polluted govt water(maybe 3l a day instead of 6 + bath/shower water)
I figure drinking 6 litres of heavily fluoridated water a day put me way over the limit..(1.5*6= 9 )of whatever the units are...(ppb?) and more that likely it wasn't just physcological that I felt better whenever I was away from Sydney.>
> I'm glad you brought up the subject of selenium. I've taken it on and off for a couple of years now to try and combat all the damage I caused by 20 years of smoking, and more importantly recently as I've discovered cancer in my family. Anyway, i've been feeling really rather rough lately (very depressed and MASSIVELY irritable and argumentative (not that Dr Bob would notice! LOL)) but since i've ceased the selenium I seem to have improved somewhat. Any clues as I can find nothing on the net which suggests such a contrary reaction (although I seem to react poorly to virtually anything I try these days).
>
> TJ
>
>I know selenium in the soil has been discussed in the Brit Parliament (put the paper somewhere on here).. and it looked like your govt opted for the option of Prozac in the drinking water instead http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3545684.stm
(that's been discussed on here too)Well I guess I felt relaxed over there but then maybe tourists tend to get withdrawal symptoms when they get home..hmmmm maybe its a ploy to get tourist return and not merely a cheaper and easier implementation of citizen "calming".
I think your possible selenium reaction is worth noting..especially as I might have experienced the same thing.
Maybe it should be a new posting ..but I haven't heard of anyone else experiencing it?
I think it's probably a combo thing..like maybe high acetylcholine and selenium combined??..dreadful whatever the cause.
Glad the selenium reduction seems to be helping.
I'm feeling a lot better since keeping off it and the brazil nuts too..and dropping the soy lecithin.(I can't even remember what else I dropped now..and it was only a few days ago!)> You'll like this one too.....some government body are currently discussing rules to have a maximum number of revolutions a roundabout can make to prevent accidents to children; I kid you not!!!
>
> TJ (subject of Herr Blair)Does that mean you can't keep driving round and round on the roundabouts trying to figure out which exit to take..when 3 out of 7 exits are labelled with the same town and 2 have no labels? ..or does that mean they are actually going to restrict the no of roundabouts they build in a row. So when following directions like turn left at the roundabout.. which REALLY when decoded means turn left at the 6th roundabout and not the most left exit(everyone should KNOW that's not the one)..but the 2nd left one, sigh
yes I can see how children would be safer(and not only children:)...what are they planning on doing instead?
The govt over here was talking about declaring oestrogen illegal I thought I heard sometime a couple of years ago.. I was beginning to feel like I was illegal or something :) Then I didn't here any more about it..
Loved your democrapic country,
Jan
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