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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by NoMotic on December 19, 2003, at 15:44:02
Here's something that boggles my mind. One of the most consistant findings in depression is that cortisol levels are abnormally raised throughout the day. This is one of the few biochemical markers that has been consistant across the board.
Then there's caffeine + ephedrine - both of which can raise cortisol levels by like 200-300%, with the amount that most people take in one day.
What I want to know, is this: Rather than developing effective, side effect free anti-cortisol medications like they've been working on, why have they not double blind studied the effects of complete caffeine elimination on depression??? Or have they and I just don't know about it?? I don't get it.
It only makes sense to figure out things that raise cortisol and try to reduce them and see how it works out in a study. Getting enough sleep every night also lowers cortisol, I can't see why that hasn't been studied, either.
But then again, what money does that make for pharmaceutical companies who would rather benefit from a new medication? None. It's a shame preventative medicine does not dominate our health system as it should.
Posted by David Smith on December 19, 2003, at 19:55:10
In reply to Caffeine elimination for depression???, posted by NoMotic on December 19, 2003, at 15:44:02
"...But then again, what money does that make for pharmaceutical companies who would rather benefit from a new medication?"
And what about the profits for food companies who put caffeine in sooo many products?
Maybe the problems we are having are more societal than genetic ?
Posted by Civ on December 19, 2003, at 21:43:57
In reply to Re: Caffeine elimination for depression???, posted by David Smith on December 19, 2003, at 19:55:10
I have probably had less than 5 cups of coffee in my entire life and get 8+ hours of sleep every night. I'm still depressed. Mental illness is one big mystery.
Posted by sb417 on December 19, 2003, at 22:34:14
In reply to Caffeine elimination for depression???, posted by NoMotic on December 19, 2003, at 15:44:02
Some people have high cortisol levels whether they drink coffee or not. Coffee is not good for me. The few "perks" that I get from my morning coffee are so short-lived, it's not even worth it. I feel better for about 30 minutes, and then I feel an enormous let-down. I'm trying to eliminate it entirely, but I have to withdraw from it slowly. I might try substituting green tea eventually. One way to taper off of coffee is to buy a brand that doesn't taste that good. Don't buy the high-priced gourmet coffees. Try buying the off-brands. Then you won't be so tempted to finish that cup. And don't add milk, cream or sugar to make it more palatable. If it doesn't taste good by itself, you'll be less likely to indulge.
Posted by NoMotic on December 20, 2003, at 11:57:59
In reply to Re: Caffeine elimination for depression???, posted by sb417 on December 19, 2003, at 22:34:14
> Some people have high cortisol levels whether they drink coffee or not. Coffee is not good for me. The few "perks" that I get from my morning coffee are so short-lived, it's not even worth it. I feel better for about 30 minutes, and then I feel an enormous let-down. I'm trying to eliminate it entirely, but I have to withdraw from it slowly. I might try substituting green tea eventually.
Yeah, but might that not be a result of your already high cortisol levels being pushed even higher? That's what comes to my mind. I do agree that a good % of people have raised cortisol levels and probably don't drink coffee - or that a good % of people don't drink coffee and still are depressed. I have no arguements against this - but for some people, those whose depression might be more cortisol dependent, caffeine elimination might unknowingly help them to some extent.
By the way, green tea, for me, goes far better than coffee. I can drink 6 cups of green tea (about 180 mg caffeine) and its more stimulating and motivating than a similar amount of caffeine in two cups of coffee. It seems to last longer and doesn't give as hard of a letdown. I prefer green tea, without question.
Posted by Viridis on December 21, 2003, at 3:57:19
In reply to Re: Caffeine elimination for depression???, posted by NoMotic on December 20, 2003, at 11:57:59
Large amounts of caffeine definitely aren't good for me -- they make me anxious, which in turn leads to insomnia and depression. I tolerate tea well, though, probably due to the relaxant effects of the L-theanine it contains. Green and black ("regular") tea both seem to have these benefits (I prefer black [= fermented] tea to green).
Interestingly, other stimulants such as Adderall and Provigil actually relax me, but I have a hard time with much caffeine.
Posted by Franz on December 21, 2003, at 12:56:15
In reply to Re: Caffeine elimination for depression???, posted by Viridis on December 21, 2003, at 3:57:19
> Large amounts of caffeine definitely aren't good for me -- they make me anxious, which in turn leads to insomnia and depression. I tolerate tea well,
Sometimes tea is hard on my stomach. Have you got that problem too?.
I do not know what it is.
Once I read caffeine is released the first when making tea, and then after a while, the tanins.
Could it be the tanins?.
I wonder when l-theanine is released so we can control brewing time to get the most of it.
>though, probably due to the relaxant effects of the L-theanine it contains. Green and black ("regular") tea both seem to have these benefits (I prefer black [= fermented] tea to green).you could try Oolong tea which is in the middle, or mixing both black and green. There was a study showing good effects.
>
> Interestingly, other stimulants such as Adderall and Provigil actually relax me, but I have a hard time with much caffeine.
Yes, stimulants are sometimes anti-anxiety, especially social anxiety.There was a tread here, java vs kava. I am sure a good level of arousal helps with dealing with tasks or problems that can provoke anxiety otherwise.
On the other side, sometimes we think we need a stimulant for energy and what works is an anti anxiety med like a benzo. The other day I took bromazepam and started cleaning and putting order, which I was postponing for days.
The chinese speak of energy as balances and I think they are right.
I am trying tyrosine now expecting some boost.I still do not know what to do with the klonopin which tends to sedate me.
I tried bromazepam and I think it is good, but it surprises me thaat I seldom here from it here.
Posted by Viridis on December 21, 2003, at 18:30:00
In reply to Re: Caffeine elimination for depression??? » Viridis, posted by Franz on December 21, 2003, at 12:56:15
I don't think bromazepam is available in the U.S., and since most of the posters are American that could explain the lack of posts on this med. (I know it is available in Canada, though). I do very well with Klonopin and occasional Xanax, but haven't tried bromazepam. I had some mild sedation problems with Klonopin, but they disappeared after a week or two of use. Are you just using it occasionally? Maybe your system just hasn't had a chance to get used to it.
Tea doesn't upset my stomach, but coffee can. I've assumed that it's the difference in caffeine concentration, but I don't really know, and I'm not sure how to brew tea to selectively get the "good" components. The tannins are a possibility -- I know someone who gets major stomach upset from wines aged in wooden barrels, which also release tannins etc. He can ony drink wine aged in steel or other non-wood casks. I do take L-theanine supplements, and they have a mild, relaxing effect.
I like oolong (the "in between"), but just am not very fond of green tea, and from what I've seen, black tea is beneficial too, although it doesn't get as much media attention.
All the best,
Viridis
Posted by linkadge on December 23, 2003, at 9:02:03
In reply to Re: Caffeine elimination for depression??? » Franz, posted by Viridis on December 21, 2003, at 18:30:00
Dispite the fact that it does raise cortisol there have been many studies that suggest that caffeine can actually prevent suicide.
from:
http://www.drlowe.com/QandA/askdrlowe/caffeine.htm
"Tolerance to the performance-enhancing effects of caffeine doesn't appear to develop. Caffeine has also been found to improve mood and relieve depression. Even small amounts induce users to feel more "clearheaded," happier, calmer, and less tense. In addition, caffeine consumption is correlated with a lower suicide rate. "
Posted by TheOutsider on December 25, 2003, at 8:08:05
In reply to Caffeine is an antidepressant, posted by linkadge on December 23, 2003, at 9:02:03
Yes I've read that study, caffein also apparently helps prevent parkinsons disease.
But surely one cannot make a generilisation about caffein. Its probably similar to very stimulating anti depressents like Reboxitine or Wellbutin, Works great for some people, makes others much worse!
In fact I speculate that people who respond well to caffein will probably respond well to these meds, and visa verse, just a thought though.
I personaly react badly to caffein, and I don't find it makes me more clear headed, just wired and anxious.
Also one must be carefull not to get dehydrated on caffein, which itself is bad for all aspects of health.
Posted by zeugma on December 25, 2003, at 13:05:59
In reply to Re: Caffeine is an antidepressant? Deppends!, posted by TheOutsider on December 25, 2003, at 8:08:05
> Yes I've read that study, caffein also apparently helps prevent parkinsons disease.
> But surely one cannot make a generilisation about caffein. Its probably similar to very stimulating anti depressents like Reboxitine or Wellbutin, Works great for some people, makes others much worse!
> In fact I speculate that people who respond well to caffein will probably respond well to these meds, and visa verse, just a thought though.
> I personaly react badly to caffein, and I don't find it makes me more clear headed, just wired and anxious.
> Also one must be carefull not to get dehydrated on caffein, which itself is bad for all aspects of health.
>
Well, anecdotally, caffeine helps my mood, and so does Strattera (atomoxetine). On the other hand, although I suffer from high levels of anxiety, Klonopin seems to depress me.
Posted by Viridis on December 28, 2003, at 4:48:55
In reply to Re: Caffeine is an antidepressant? Deppends!, posted by zeugma on December 25, 2003, at 13:05:59
A bit of caffeine gives me a slight lift, but much at all makes me very anxious. Wellbutrin made me extremely anxious (so do SSRIs), but Strattera was relaxing. Provigil gave me energy without anxiety. Ephedrine leaves me edgy and irritable. Adderall (an amphetamine) makes me calmer and more focused.
All in all, individual reactions to stimulant-type drugs vary, and a negative reaction to one stimulant doesn't necessarily predict a negative reaction to another. It's all trial and error.
Posted by AreMedsGood on January 18, 2004, at 10:47:01
In reply to Re: Caffeine elimination for depression???, posted by Viridis on December 21, 2003, at 3:57:19
I feel the same way about Coffee. When I wake up the first thing that comes to my mind is that first cup, or I dont feel normal. Well since I live in the coffee central area of Seattle, home of Starbucks Coffee, coffee is a part of the lifestyle here. What really gets me is when it gets hot during the Summer, then I really wonder : "What am I doing drinking this boiling hot cup of coffee when it is 95 degrees outside. I almost wish I never started to drink coffee about 7 years ago, then maybe I would feel like the rest of the population who dont drink it at all. I work with people who dont drink coffee at all, and I always wonder how they do it. When I ask them if they want a cup they say "Oh no way I dont drink coffee".
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