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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sb417 on November 26, 2003, at 0:58:49
There are many people here who claim to have benefited from taking Omega-3 fatty acids. Can you tell me how your life is different since taking these supplements? I have taken them for a long time, and I do not notice any difference in my mood. I've taken pretty high doses, and I think I'm just wasting my money. How is your life better since taking Omega-3 FA's? Is it a subtle change or not? Thanks.
Posted by NoMotic on November 26, 2003, at 6:15:06
In reply to Omega-3 Fatty Acids, posted by sb417 on November 26, 2003, at 0:58:49
I have noticed little if any benefits from flax oil. However, when I use moderate doses of fish oil (like 1.5 grams EPA, 1.5 g DHA / day), while at the same time, restricting my omega 6 fats and other unhealthy fats, I've noticed definite improvements, in a very good way. There are many studies that show theoretically that Omega 3's, specifically fish oil, would raise monoamine levels, and I think that holds true for myself. I notice definite benefits.
My own personal opinion is that some people's depression is caused by cytokines and the immune system (food allergies or candida or parasites). I suspect people with this kind of depression are most helped with omega 3 fatty acids, as it causes a different inflammatory cascade to be activated that does not release as many inflammatory, possible mood-altering, immune chemicals like interleukins (st johns is a IL-6 blocker), Tumor necrosis factor alpha (kava and bupropion are TNF Alpha inhibitors) and others with names I can't remember. Regardless, my point is that inflammation and immune activation is strongly associated with mental disorders, and I think using something that lowers immune activation (i.e. - fish oil) will help out those certain people. It helps me.
Just as a side note, one of the running theories as to the cause of depression that is gaining support is the cytokine theory - except they don't know what's causing the cytokine release. I would strongly suspect altered intestinal flora causing the cytokine release, based on being in the candida / parasite type chatrooms for so long and seeing people's depression resolve (yes, CURED!!) as a result of resolving the underlying candida problem or parasite problem. Cytokines can actually, quite interestingly, throw off the cortisol feedback inhibition loop involved in depression.
Here's how my theory goes - something infects the body, long term, continuously releasing cytokines. When the infection flares, so does the mental disorder. For the case of depression, the infection and / or the byproducts of the infection (leaky gut causing food allergies) interacts with genetics, I believe, to cause cytokines to be released, which theoretically would offset the HPA axis balance. In other words, the body becomes unresponsive to inhibit its own stress hormones, thus causing uncontrolled release of stress hormones. This is a key finding in most depression studies - the dexamethasone test fails - people are unable to inhibit their own release of cortisol in response to a cortisol inhibitor (correct me if Im wrong on what the dexamethasone test is). Thus, bottom line: there is a feedback loop that should allow the body to regulate its own cortisol, but under the influence of cytokines, this does not happen. In a great majority of people with depression, this does not happen. Cortisol runs rampant. This has a toxic effect on brain cells, specifically in the hippocampus and prefrontal cortex. Therefore, bam, we have depression, all caused by an infection. For some people, certain cytokines (IL-1 has a strong link to ADD) are released that only trigger ADD symptoms through messing up the prefrontal cortex only.
Anyway, so that's my theory. I don't claim for it to be flawless, nor do I claim it to be 100% correct. It just makes sense to me, and i believe it to be true for myself. :)
I suggest going to a board, I can't remember the website name, but its about a parasite called D. Fragilis. You'll see A LOT of reports of people with depression who were CURED when they cured their parasitic infection, which by way, was nearly impossible to detect via standard detection methods. Some people had to get 10 tests done before one came out positive - yet long term anti-amoebic treatment for what came out positive cured them. I would assume it "cured" their mental problems because the immune system changes had come back down to normal levels due to irradication on an infective agent. Interesting. To me, this is where it's at - this is where the research should be. Anyway, I'm way off topic. Hope my Omega 3 advice helps a bit.
Posted by Susan J on November 26, 2003, at 9:57:03
In reply to Omega-3 Fatty Acids, posted by sb417 on November 26, 2003, at 0:58:49
I think I've had some good luck with Omega 3s.
I feel better when I'm eating 3 or 4 meals of fish each week. Mostly salmon, some albacore tuna. It only takes a week for me to really notice a difference. I don't notice much improvement if I'm just taking the fish oil pills, although I still take them.Good luck,
Susan
Posted by Civ on November 26, 2003, at 10:47:55
In reply to Re: Omega-3 Fatty Acids, posted by NoMotic on November 26, 2003, at 6:15:06
I think what you're speaking of is at the heart of my problems.
I've been on lots of antibiotics for sinus infections, bronchitis, pneumonia, and a host of other illnesses for the last 7 years. I've also taken inhaled corticosteroids for the same amount of time. I think my flora is extremely bad. I'm going to start a candida treatment next week. I've already made a lot of dietary changes that are helping, but I know the problem runs deeper.
Posted by Ron Jones on November 26, 2003, at 13:37:13
In reply to Re: Omega-3 Fatty Acids » NoMotic, posted by Civ on November 26, 2003, at 10:47:55
No one knows the cause of mental illness or how to cure it.So your ideas or just as good as Freuds.
Posted by NoMotic on November 26, 2003, at 14:59:20
In reply to Re: Omega-3 Fatty Acids, posted by Ron Jones on November 26, 2003, at 13:37:13
> No one knows the cause of mental illness or how to cure it.So your ideas or just as good as Freuds.
True, to a certain extent. But...
That's like saying - if I get mouth sores every time I chew a certain kind of gum, is anyone going to tell me that's really not why i get mouth sores and in reality, no one knows the cause of mouth sores? Who cares, for me its a fact... Maybe there's other people who's mouth sores are caused by that certain kind of chewing gum? Probably.
The fact is, there are people who have been cured of mental disorders. If you want to talk to one of them, I can send them your way.
However, another fact is, no controlled studies have proven anything of what I am sayings. It's based on theory + anecdotal stories. Take it for that, and nothing else. I am 100% sure, without a doubt, that I get attention deficit from eating certain grains + dairy products. If you want to tell me that this doesn't happen, fine, because it's only an anecdotal story. I'm only trying to help other people who seem to have a strong immune system component to their depression - for these people, I would advise engaging in candida research and the possibility of altered intestinal flora as well as food sensitivities. I believe that if you were once normal, as I was, then suddenly and explosively developed symptoms of a mental disorder, then there's a cause to your problem, unknown as it may be - I am offering one possible cause, though it might not be true for most people, I can't really say. But just go into the candida and parasite boards and maybe you'll be more convinced. If you were symptomatic your entire life (I was NOT this way) then maybe you can't be "cured", so to speak. But I've talked to people have been cured.
Let's take a viral brain infection, as another example. Imagine no one has any idea that your case of whatever-virus is causing your schizophrenia like symptoms. People are going to tell you there's no cure for Schizophrenia. Unless, of course, you don't really have Schizophrenia and it's only a viral infection in the brain.
Just the same, wouldn't you think there's at least a small percentage of people who don't have depression and are actually SICK in the truest sense of the word? I can't help but 100% agree with a thought like this because of all I've seen in the past 4 years, talking to so many people and reading so much information. It all ties together. People get symptoms of depression when they the flu, for example.
Take note that a psychiatrist's definition of depression also includes the "somatic" symptoms or whatever, which is like upset stomach, aches, etc. Again, it all makes sense... what if the somatic symptoms are symptoms of a parasitic infection the body just can't get rid of... ever. The parasitic infection also lends itself to mental symptoms... just like the flu. You're tired, irritable, whatever. And if they can't find any signs of a parasitic infection on a test, even though you might indeed have an infection, you are officially labelled "depressed". Or if you can't think straight because you're sick, you might be labeled "non-hyperactive attention deficit disorder". Sucks, but I'm sure it happens some of the time.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2003, at 8:51:31
In reply to Omega-3 Fatty Acids, posted by sb417 on November 26, 2003, at 0:58:49
> There are many people here who claim to have benefited from taking Omega-3 fatty acids. Can you tell me how your life is different since taking these supplements?
I am calmer. My mood swings are less intense. I am more balanced. My blood pressure is reduced. My triglyerides have improved dramatically. My HDL/LDL cholesterol has shifted to extremely beneficial ratios. My blood sugar is more stable. Not all the benefits are mood-related.
> I have taken them for a long time, and I do not notice any difference in my mood.
The effect is subtle, in many people. Not noticing is not equivalent to no effect.
> I've taken pretty high doses, and I think I'm just wasting my money.
Heart disease, diabetes, Alzheimer's....many diseases of modern living are associated with omega-3 deficient diets. You're not wasting your money.
> How is your life better since taking Omega-3 FA's? Is it a subtle change or not? Thanks.
See above.
Lar
Pharmacol Res. 1999 Sep;40(3):211-25.Comment in:
Pharmacol Res. 1999 Sep;40(3):203.
Pharmacol Res. 1999 Sep;40(3):205-6.
Health benefits of docosahexaenoic acid (DHA)Horrocks LA, Yeo YK.
Docosa Foods Ltd, 1275 Kinnear Road, Columbus, OH 43212-1155, USA,
Docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) is essential for the growth and functional development of the brain in infants. DHA is also required for maintenance of normal brain function in adults. The inclusion of plentiful DHA in the diet improves learning ability, whereas deficiencies of DHA are associated with deficits in learning. DHA is taken up by the brain in preference to other fatty acids. The turnover of DHA in the brain is very fast, more so than is generally realized. The visual acuity of healthy, full-term, formula-fed infants is increased when their formula includes DHA. During the last 50 years, many infants have been fed formula diets lacking DHA and other omega-3 fatty acids. DHA deficiencies are associated with foetal alcohol syndrome, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, cystic fibrosis, phenylketonuria, unipolar depression, aggressive hostility, and adrenoleukodystrophy. Decreases in DHA in the brain are associated with cognitive decline during aging and with onset of sporadic Alzheimer disease. The leading cause of death in western nations is cardiovascular disease. Epidemiological studies have shown a strong correlation between fish consumption and reduction in sudden death from myocardial infarction. The reduction is approximately 50% with 200 mg day(-1)of DHA from fish. DHA is the active component in fish. Not only does fish oil reduce triglycerides in the blood and decrease thrombosis, but it also prevents cardiac arrhythmias. The association of DHA deficiency with depression is the reason for the robust positive correlation between depression and myocardial infarction. Patients with cardiovascular disease or Type II diabetes are often advised to adopt a low-fat diet with a high proportion of carbohydrate. A study with women shows that this type of diet increases plasma triglycerides and the severity of Type II diabetes and coronary heart disease. DHA is present in fatty fish (salmon, tuna, mackerel) and mother's milk. DHA is present at low levels in meat and eggs, but is not usually present in infant formulas. EPA, another long-chain n-3 fatty acid, is also present in fatty fish. The shorter chain n-3 fatty acid, alpha-linolenic acid, is not converted very well to DHA in man. These longchain n-3 fatty acids (also known as omega-3 fatty acids) are now becoming available in some foods, especially infant formula and eggs in Europe and Japan. Fish oil decreases the proliferation of tumour cells, whereas arachidonic acid, a longchain n-6 fatty acid, increases their proliferation. These opposite effects are also seen with inflammation, particularly with rheumatoid arthritis, and with asthma. DHA has a positive effect on diseases such as hypertension, arthritis, atherosclerosis, depression, adult-onset diabetes mellitus, myocardial infarction, thrombosis, and some cancers. Copyright 1999 Academic Press.
Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Sep;70(3 Suppl):560S-569S.
Essential fatty acids in health and chronic disease.Simopoulos AP.
Center for Genetics, Nutrition and Health, Washington, DC 20009 cgnh@bellatlantic.net
Human beings evolved consuming a diet that contained about equal amounts of n-3 and n-6 essential fatty acids. Over the past 100-150 y there has been an enormous increase in the consumption of n-6 fatty acids due to the increased intake of vegetable oils from corn, sunflower seeds, safflower seeds, cottonseed, and soybeans. Today, in Western diets, the ratio of n-6 to n-3 fatty acids ranges from approximately 20-30:1 instead of the traditional range of 1-2:1. Studies indicate that a high intake of n-6 fatty acids shifts the physiologic state to one that is prothrombotic and proaggregatory, characterized by increases in blood viscosity, vasospasm, and vasoconstriction and decreases in bleeding time. n-3 Fatty acids, however, have antiinflammatory, antithrombotic, antiarrhythmic, hypolipidemic, and vasodilatory properties. These beneficial effects of n-3 fatty acids have been shown in the secondary prevention of coronary heart disease, hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and, in some patients with renal disease, rheumatoid arthritis, ulcerative colitis, Crohn disease, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Most of the studies were carried out with fish oils [eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA)]. However, alpha-linolenic acid, found in green leafy vegetables, flaxseed, rapeseed, and walnuts, desaturates and elongates in the human body to EPA and DHA and by itself may have beneficial effects in health and in the control of chronic diseases.
Posted by sb417 on November 27, 2003, at 9:48:02
In reply to Re: Omega-3 Fatty Acids » sb417, posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2003, at 8:51:31
Thank you to all of you for your responses, and Happy Thanksgiving!
Posted by noa on November 30, 2003, at 12:53:01
In reply to Omega-3 Fatty Acids, posted by sb417 on November 26, 2003, at 0:58:49
One thing I learned early on from Babble is that it is fair to say that some things work for some people and not for others.
I have found fish oil supplements, around 2.5 to 3.5 grams of EPA per day, to help with my depression enough that I was able to lower my Effexor XR dose from 262.5 mg to 225 mg. about a year ago. This was significant enough to make a difference in the akithisia/agitation side effects (although not eliminate them entirely). I'd love to lower my med dose more, but I don't feel confident that the fish oil will compensate quite that much.
FWIW, I believe I had a real deficiency in omega 3's. I had stopped eating fish (and meat and poultry) at the age of 15, and at around age 27 (15 years ago or so) I started having intense cravings for fish. I would then basically have a fish binge for a few weeks each year until the craving died down. This went on for a few years until I realized I liked fish and my body was craving it, so I reintroduced it into my diet at on a more normal basis, rather than binging on it for 2 or 3 weeks every year.
I think I had dramatic effects from the fish oil initially because of that deficiency, and the effects have leveled off somewhat, but have been sufficient in that I've been able to maintain the improvement fairly well.
Posted by sb417 on November 30, 2003, at 17:44:03
In reply to Re: Omega-3 Fatty Acids » sb417, posted by noa on November 30, 2003, at 12:53:01
Noa, thank you for your help. I'm bookmarking this whole thread. I guess I will continue taking the capsules because they might be helping in ways that I don't notice. After reading your post, I feel like having fish for dinner!!
Posted by Francesco on December 1, 2003, at 12:11:40
In reply to Re: Omega-3 Fatty Acids » noa, posted by sb417 on November 30, 2003, at 17:44:03
I just want to add that the effect for me ain't that subtile. A single capsule of fish oil is enough to makes me hypo. One hour ago I was mild depressed then I take epa/dha and now I'm here again.
I've read some posts about the triggering of hypomania in people with and without sublying bipolarity issues. I was wondering how this can be possible. Does somebody has a theory about it ?
Moreover ... EPA/DHA are often suggested for bipolar-disorders. For example Amen in "Healing the brain" suggest OMEGA-3 for Ring of Fire - Adhd, which the kind of ADHD who has most in common with bipolarity.
All this confuses me. I don't know if taking fish oil is good or bad for my mental-health.
This is the end of the thread.
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