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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 4 of 4. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 11, 2003, at 20:47:07
In reply to Picamilon, posted by lotus on September 10, 2003, at 18:54:16
> Has anyone else used Picamilon for anxiety and depression?
Posted by Viridis on September 12, 2003, at 1:17:15
In reply to Re: Picamilon « lotus, posted by Dr. Bob on September 11, 2003, at 20:47:07
For me, it's mildly stimulating and relaxing at the same time. Nothing dramatic, but a subtle, pleasant effect. From reports I've seen on the main PBabble board, effects range from nothing to quite impressive, depending on the individual. I'm not aware of any objective, controlled studies of its use (that have been conducted in the U.S. at least), but I haven't researched this very thoroughly.
For serious problems, I'd consult a good psychiatrist and explore appropriate prescription meds.
Good luck!
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on September 12, 2003, at 13:56:00
In reply to Re: Picamilon « lotus, posted by Dr. Bob on September 11, 2003, at 20:47:07
> What dose did you use? I've read larger doses are more stimulating. Did you find this to be the case? Did you ever combine it with anything other than a benzo?
I started off with 50 mg t.i.d., but now take 100mg t.i.d. I believe this is the maximum recommended dosage, though slightly higher doses probably wouldn't pose a problem.
I do find the higher dose causes mild stimulation... or perhaps a better term would be "increased incentive". The anxiolytic effect however does not seem to become any more prominent at higher dose levels (at least in my experience).
I've combined picamilon with a lot of things. I can't remember exactly when I began taking it... I think it was about six months ago, and I've been taking it every day since. During these past six months I've used the following drugs concomitantly with picamilon:
--Prescription Drugs
* Lexapro
* Zyban
* Xanax XR
* Klonopin
* Ambien
* Xyrem
* Neurontin
* Elavil
* Desoxyn
* Dexedrine Spansules/DextroStat
* Mirapex
* Provigil
* Clarinex
* Flexeril
* Skelaxin
* Robaxin
* Soma
* Bentyl
* Donnatal No. 2 (0.0194mg atropine/0.0065mg scopolamine/0.3111mg hyoscyamine/32.4mg phenobarbital)
* Ultram
* DTO (deodorized tincture of opium, formerly known as laudanum; primary active chemical is morphine)
* paregoric (tincture of opium; much less potent than laudanum, but active chemical is also morphine)
* codeine sulfate
* Brontex (10mg codeine, 300mg guaifenesin per dose)
* Tussionex Pennkinetic (10mg hydrocodone polystirex/8mg chlorpheniramine maleate per teaspoon)
* Dilaudid Cough Syrup (1mg hydromorphone/100mg guaifenesin per teaspoon)
* Pherazine DM Syrup (15mg dextromethorphan/6.25mg promethazine)--OTC and Otherwise Legal, Easily Obtainable Drugs
* Actifed (pseudoephedrine + tripolidine)
* Tagamet
* Zantac
* Pepcid
* Sodium bicarbonate
* Mylanta Gelcaps
* 5-HTP
* DMG (dimethylglycine)
* TMG (dimethylglycine)
* Fish oil
* Reishi fungus
* Ashwagandha
* American, Oriental, and Siberian ginseng
* Kava kava
* California poppy
* Skullcap
* Lemon balm
* German chamomile
* Salvia divinorum
* Amanita muscaria
* 5-MeO-DMT (easily obtained via the internet, though someone caught distributing/possessing it could potentially be prosecuted under the Analog Act, since 5-MeO-DMT is so similar in its effects/method of action to DMT, a Schedule I substance. 5-MeO-DMT is illegal in South Dakota.)
* DPT (same explanation as for 5-Meo-DMT, basically, except that DPT -- in the U.S. -- is currently only illegal in Maine.)
* 5-MeO-AMT (also hypothetically covered by the Analog Act, since it's very closely related parent-drug, AMT, was placed into emergency Schedule I in April of this year.)
* DiPT (could also be covered by the Analog Act, as 5-MeO-DiPT is Schedule I.)
* 2C-C (possible analog of 2C-B, below.)
* 2C-T-2 (possible analog of 2C-T-7, a Schedule I controlled substance.)
* Absinthe (the laws on this one are kind of screwy... manufacture and sale within the U.S. is illegal, yet purchase and possession are not. Each individual ingredient that makes absinthe what it is [primarily the alcohol, thujone {from wormwood}, and asarones {from calamus}] is perfectly legal on its own, so it's extremely simple to make absinthe at home. It's legal and readily available pretty much all over the European Union, and most American absintheurs either import it from overseas or smuggle it from Mexico/Canada.)
* 4-pentanolide (a.k.a. gamma-valerolactone [GVL], this substance becomes gamma-hydroxyvalerate upon entering the body; this is perfectly analogous to gamma-butyrolactone [GBL] being converted to GHB within the body, though GVL/GHV are not as powerful as GBL/GHB and have a ceiling effect -- that is, any dose over 5-10 grams or so will not provide any further benefit.)--Illegal Drugs
* Cannabis
* GBL (gamma-butyrolactone, precursor to GHB)
* MDMA (Ecstasy)
* Psilocybe mushrooms
* 2C-B (Nexus)
* DOM/STPThat's pretty much it for the important stuff... there were a few homeopathic remedies I've taken, and two that I still do take (Gelsemium sempervirens 1X and Arsenicum album 3C), as well as my daily vitamin/mineral supplements.
In general, I've found the picamilon to not interfere with the action of most of these drugs in any noticeable way. The sole exceptions (for me) were the opioids and benzos. I normally would require a dose of 16mg/day of clonazepam, while I only need 8mg to do the trick while I'm taking picamilon. As for the opioids, picamilon seems to enhance their analgesic effects, but not the euphoria.
Come to think of it though, I had a much decreased occurrence of bad trips on the psychedelics the few times I've used them since beginning picamilon. I can't say for sure whether this can be directly attributed to the supplement or just a result of my becoming accustomed to alien, psychedelic, disassociative experiences though.
Two things certainly surprised me during my experimentations. The first was that absinthe, a high-proof liqueur, wasn't affected by picamilon, even though alcohol is a GABA(A) receptor agonist. Second, the effects of GHB and GBL were not enhanced, as I expected they would be. Oh well -- being able to cut such a huge dose of Klonopin in half is quite enough reason for me to continue the picamilon indefinitely.
Sorry this was so long -- I was bored and I wanted to be as complete as possible, lol.
~~Michael
Posted by JonW on September 14, 2003, at 0:41:37
In reply to Re: Picamilon » JonW, posted by Ame Sans Vie on September 12, 2003, at 13:56:00
Thanks Michael!
In experimenting with the racetams (piracetam, etc.) I discovered they help me a lot with reading, etc. I won't say I have ADD, but I definitely identify with many of the symptoms. Unfortunately, they make me too irritable to justify their use. Too bad, because that's the only side-effect I experience.
I recently began taking L-Theanine. Actually, I dissolve the capsule in green tea. It's not quite as good by itself. Anyway, L-Theanine has a very positive effect on my mood and anxiety. It should be said that I also take moclobemide, so perhaps that makes it more effective for me.
I've benefited from GABAerigic (is that a word?) drugs in the past, and L-Theanine aparently increases GABA. It also effects dopamine and serotonin, though. Anyway, it seems obvious to next try a *nootropic* that effects *GABA* -- picamilone. My fingers are crossed :) ...goes to check his mailbox...
I suffer from severe atypical depression/social anxiety disorder, and have ADD-like symptoms. I may just have TLE (temporal lobe epilepsy) with secondary SAD. I've entertained this thought, but am not ready to let a neurologist play with me just yet :) Moclobemide + picamilone + l-theanine is my attempt at combining things that aren't very potent by themselves with the hope that they will be synergistic for me. Potency without side-effects in other words. That's my latest kick, anyway. I also believe in CBT, and am doing a program at Temple for SAD right now. Moclobemide + L-Theanine + CBT is the most effective "cocktail" I've ever been on.
There is a lot to be gained from psychology, psychiatry, and neurology. Unfortunately, they are all biased and, for the most part, refuse to recognize each other. Any treatment that isn't mainstream is frowned on by all three of these groups. It's forced me to, in part, self-medicate. I want the best of everything. To each their own. Once again, fingers crossed.
Well, sorry to ramble... thanks for listening. Any thoughts or ideas are welcome!
Jon :)
This is the end of the thread.
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