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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 40. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Gracie2 on October 29, 2002, at 0:42:26
It has long been my belief that creativity and certain forms of mental illness are linked. A classic study on this link is a well-researched,
fascinating book called "Touched With Fire" by
Kay Redfield Jamison (subtitle: Manic-Depressive Illness and the Artistic Temperament).In the years that I've been posting on PB, I sometimes refer to my "real job" as an x-ray technician. I rarely refer to my artistic talent,
although I've sold paintings and drawings and have done several murals in public places. When I'm able to produce like this, I do get great satisfaction from it. This artwork comes from a
"higher self" that I forget about when I'm feeling bad. Most of my posts concern the terrible things I've done with my life, and to the people I love.The other day, I got a call from a friend that works at the Washington University School of Medicine here in St. Louis. This is a school of no small esteem, it's quite well known. She told me that the school publishes a journal - I believe she said 4 times a year - a medical journal, interviewing doctors and teachers and staff. She told me that in the latest journal, there was a large photograph of a Dr. White standing next to a child on an x-ray table, and in the background was a huge "jungle" mural.
I painted that mural myself, 10 years ago. Pretty sure I never mentioned it here on PB. I've discussed my drug abuse, my alcohol abuse, my overdoses, my hospitalizations, my dysfunctional
family, my medications, my suicide attempts, my lousy self-esteem. I appreciate the opportunity to "vent", to discuss the horrors of my life. It rarely occurs to me to bring up the accomplishments of my life, or to judge myself by my talents or interests.But there is another side to me, something more than the shy, anti-social, neurotic, addictive,
paranoid part of my personality. I'm the best orthopedic x-ray technologist that I know. I sell books, and I'm getting pretty good at it. I've been offered a great deal of money for some of my paintings. I've done murals in public places and private homes. I paint small wooden boxes and sell them to stores. I collect cookbooks and books on Jack the Ripper, and I have an extensive library on criminology. I can read a map, shoot a gun, and I've never owned a car with automatic transmission. I have an aquarium, and I love fish.
I also have a cat, 2 dogs, and a 100-year-old house in the city.Little, if any of this stuff comes out in my posts to PB, since I'm too busy lamenting about my shortcomings. I think a "PB-Artist" site would be just the thing to draw people out about their GOOD side and how medication affects the creative urge. I would be very interested to learn how other artists - painters, writers, poets, musicians - reacted to a site devoted to them, as I feel that a strong reaction would help confirm
the link between artistic ability and mental illness.
-Gracie
Posted by Tabßitha on October 29, 2002, at 2:07:51
In reply to Suggestion-Psycho-Babble Artist, posted by Gracie2 on October 29, 2002, at 0:42:26
Gracie, I just wanted to say that most everything in your post would have been great to read on PB Social. You don't always have to talk about the bad stuff. I really enjoyed hearing about your accomplishments.
Posted by BeardedLady on October 29, 2002, at 5:08:48
In reply to Re: Suggestion-Psycho-Babble Artist » Gracie2, posted by Tabßitha on October 29, 2002, at 2:07:51
You are wonderful! It's so great to hear you speak of your accomplishments. (I enjoyed your red walls, too!)
I think, however, that Social is the best place for this. The non-artists appreciate your achievements as well, and a separate board might leave them with a feeling of exclusion, and they might not read of these accomplishments. Besides, we have so many boards to look at already; if we post this stuff on Social, Social becomes a more exciting board to read, and we don't have to go anywhere else.
By the way, I think being great at your job qualifies you as an artist. I think I'll go to Social and do a book recommendation. Let's go start a thread and get to know the "other" you better!
beardy
Posted by BeardedLady on October 29, 2002, at 6:49:48
In reply to There, by the grace of Grace..., posted by BeardedLady on October 29, 2002, at 5:08:48
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 30, 2002, at 1:24:12
In reply to Suggestion-Psycho-Babble Artist, posted by Gracie2 on October 29, 2002, at 0:42:26
> I think a "PB-Artist" site would be just the thing to draw people out about their GOOD side and how medication affects the creative urge. I would be very interested to learn how other artists - painters, writers, poets, musicians - reacted to a site devoted to them, as I feel that a strong reaction would help confirm the link between artistic ability and mental illness.
Sorry, sometimes you have to hit me over the head with a good idea before it sinks in...
> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 (!) 23:27:58 EDT
>
> It occurs to me that a lot of the people who post on Psycho-Babble are good writers. Have you ever thought about devoting a page to short fiction/non-fiction, poetry or essays?> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:05:26 -0500
>
> PB Fiction ... may not be bad idea. It's construed as a form of therapy to express oneself without saying that something applies to "me or you". It's also a creative outlet. I'm sure quite a few might be attracted to the idea.What about something like that? A board focused not on the creative urge itself (maybe I just haven't been hit over the head with that one enough yet, but it does seem to me that would fit in at PSB or PPB), but on one of its products, creative writing?
Writing by the poster, but not necessarily fiction. And others' responses. Creative writing would of course continue to be welcome on other (appropriate) boards, it's just that on this board, it would be the focus. (Creative images would be more complicated, but might come later.)
BTW, I've also been considering new boards that focus on loss, grief, and mourning; recovery from substance abuse; and college and university students. I know it would be an adjustment, but I might just add them all at the same time. Let me know what you think?
Bob
PS: If you think there shouldn't be any new boards ever, well, you're free to voice your opinion, but I think I want to remain open to new possibilities...
> "Touched With Fire"
PPS: Thanks for the quotes! :-)
Posted by IsoM on October 30, 2002, at 1:59:10
In reply to Re: more new boards?, posted by Dr. Bob on October 30, 2002, at 1:24:12
Posted by Tabßitha on October 30, 2002, at 2:03:58
In reply to Re: more new boards?, posted by Dr. Bob on October 30, 2002, at 1:24:12
Well, since you asked...
Those new board topics are interesting, but do you think having new non-med boards would inspire more people to post on them? All those topics are allowable on Social, yet there are times when Social has only a few new posts per day. Wouldn't adding more boards mean fewer posts on all of them? I'm afraid all the non-med boards might start to feel like sad little parties where there just aren't quite enough guests to get any momentum going.
The med board has the most posts by far, so if any board needs splitting up, isn't it that one?
Posted by ~Alii~ on October 30, 2002, at 3:12:24
In reply to Re: more new boards?, posted by Dr. Bob on October 30, 2002, at 1:24:12
>>>...PB Fiction ... may not be bad idea. It's construed as a form of therapy to express oneself without saying that something applies to "me or you". It's also a creative outlet. I'm sure quite a few might be attracted to the idea.<<<
>>>>What about something like that? A board focused not on the creative urge itself (maybe I just haven't been hit over the head with that one enough yet, but it does seem to me that would fit in at PSB or PPB), but on one of its products, creative writing?
Writing by the poster, but not necessarily fiction. And others' responses. Creative writing would of course continue to be welcome on other (appropriate) boards, it's just that on this board, it would be the focus. (Creative images would be more complicated, but might come later.)
...Let me know what you think?
Bob<<<<<Dr. Bob,
If people on these boards have been banned for quoting from literature that is well known and taught at a majority of universities then I fail to see how original works by these wonderfully creative types will fall inside your ever changing rules of civility.
The creative process and the subsequent product (be it poetry, prose, or what have you) often is focused on the innermost turmoil of one's disease.
So as I see it this is encouraging people to write out their creative sides only to be 'judged/blocked' due to an ever changing civility rule. I would have to say that would be cruel given the challenges most people face in their struggle with their diseases and medications.
I would find NOT being able to read (due to dysteleological rules) some of the gems that people on this site are capable of writing most unsupportive.
I would be heartbroken to watch amazing writers and poets blocked time after time because of their art.
So invite them to do so and block them at will. What fun this will be to watch play out.
--Alii
Posted by oracle on October 30, 2002, at 10:57:14
In reply to I foresee lots of blocking due to creative diffs. » Dr. Bob, posted by ~Alii~ on October 30, 2002, at 3:12:24
Along with the issue of posting original works and getting blocked because of content, I see a big problem with the way copyrights are handled here. I would have a problem with "unrestricted use" of my original creative works.
Posted by ~Alii~ on October 30, 2002, at 16:12:55
In reply to copyright, posted by oracle on October 30, 2002, at 10:57:14
Oracle,
This is from the FAQ here at PB:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html
How do copyrights work here?My understanding is that when you write something, you (usually) get the copyright to it. It doesn't even have to include a copyright statement. There's a process by which you can register that copyright, but that's a somewhat separate issue. However, I want to be able to use these posts elsewhere. For example, on my Book Ideas page or in articles.
You may therefore submit a message only if you agree to allow me unrestricted use of it. Submitting a message constitutes acceptance of that condition. But you retain the copyright.
~~~~~~~~~~~There is more in the FAQ section regarding your question. But to be safe the only way to control *your* work is not to post it here on these boards. Sad but true.
Thanks for bringing up another important issue oracle.
--Alii
>>>> Along with the issue of posting original works and getting blocked because of content, I see a big problem with the way copyrights are handled here. I would have a problem with "unrestricted use" of my original creative works.<<<<--oracle
Posted by Zo on October 30, 2002, at 16:36:13
In reply to Suggestion-Psycho-Babble Artist, posted by Gracie2 on October 29, 2002, at 0:42:26
This was the most exciting post I've read in a long time! Made me realize how much I'd love a board such as you suggest. There is *so* much to hash out, amongst artists and anyone whose creativity is important to them. . .adding drugs to the artist's life in the way we do. .. is ripe for discussion. I think we could learn so much from each other.And I wonder if it shouldn't be on a site of its own. Or perhaps Bob wants to make "burbs." Having a board for artists using psych meds moderated by a non-artist - no offense, Bob, but that makes about as much sense as an artist admin monitoring doctor-speak.
I say, sidestep the hassle and heartbreak, and think of a whole 'nother way. Any ideas?
Amazing, amazing list of talents and accomplishments, Gracie! I'd love to see your work. Hmmm, a place for uploaded files/pics. .. . .
Warmly,
Zo
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 30, 2002, at 19:41:04
In reply to copyright, posted by oracle on October 30, 2002, at 10:57:14
> Those new board topics are interesting, but do you think having new non-med boards would inspire more people to post on them? All those topics are allowable on Social, yet there are times when Social has only a few new posts per day. Wouldn't adding more boards mean fewer posts on all of them? I'm afraid all the non-med boards might start to feel like sad little parties where there just aren't quite enough guests to get any momentum going.
Hmm, yes, that would be a risk. But someone might be more drawn to a party that's smaller if they're more sure that they'll find the conversation interesting, right?
> The med board has the most posts by far, so if any board needs splitting up, isn't it that one?
>
> TabßithaThe idea wouldn't be to split up PSB, but to try to stimulate, by setting aside room for, more discussion of those specific types.
----
> If people on these boards have been banned for quoting from literature that is well known and taught at a majority of universities then I fail to see how original works by these wonderfully creative types will fall inside your ever changing rules of civility.
>
> --AliiWell, sonnets can be original and creative, can't they? Even though they have to follow certain rules? Granted, those rules don't ever change...
Support would still be a higher priority than freedom of speech. So, unfortunately, those with a particular style or "voice" might be excluded.
----
> I see a big problem with the way copyrights are handled here. I would have a problem with "unrestricted use" of my original creative works.
>
> oracleGood point... What if that didn't apply to that board? So I'd ask for permission to reproduce those posts. Like anyone else would. Or at least should...
Bob
Posted by judy1 on October 30, 2002, at 22:33:44
In reply to Re: more new boards?, posted by Dr. Bob on October 30, 2002, at 1:24:12
I would like to voice another vote for a substance abuse board- there seems (to me) to be more posts lately in that category. I also think by seperating them they would draw the attention of recovered abusers who might not pay attention to PSB, etc. thanks, judy
Posted by ~Alii~ on October 31, 2002, at 0:20:32
In reply to Re: more new boards, posted by Dr. Bob on October 30, 2002, at 19:41:04
Posted by Dinah on October 31, 2002, at 2:42:44
In reply to Re: more new boards? » Dr. Bob, posted by Tabßitha on October 30, 2002, at 2:03:58
I can see arguments both ways. In theory, the new boards should attract new people. And the more the merrier.
In practice I feel guilty every time I look at the book board. It looks so lonely.
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 31, 2002, at 5:50:07
In reply to So not all mental illness is welcome here? (nm) » Dr. Bob, posted by ~Alii~ on October 31, 2002, at 0:20:32
I don't under stand your comment Alli... why do you think not all mental illnesses are excepted here??
Nikki
Posted by ~Alii~ on October 31, 2002, at 6:17:25
In reply to Re: So not all mental illness is welcome here? » ~Alii~, posted by NikkiT2 on October 31, 2002, at 5:50:07
Because of this statement from an above post:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/8023.html>>>If people on these boards have been banned for quoting from literature that is well known and taught at a majority of universities then I fail to see how original works by these wonderfully creative types will fall inside your ever changing rules of civility.<<< --Alii
>>>Well, sonnets can be original and creative, can't they? Even though they have to follow certain rules? Granted, those rules don't ever change...
Support would still be a higher priority than freedom of speech. So, unfortunately, those with a particular style or "voice" might be excluded.<<<--Dr. Bob
Nikki--
It's the particular style or "voice" Dr. Bob is alluding to excluding which leads me to believe that the entire spectrum of mental illnesses are no longer welcome in this community of cookie cutter support and civility.
Acceptance does not seem to be synonymous with mutual education and support---the beacons of this site according to the fearless leader.
--Alii
>>>>>I don't under stand your comment Alli... why do you think not all mental illnesses are excepted here??
Nikki<<<<<
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 31, 2002, at 6:31:05
In reply to Re: So not all mental illness is welcome here? » NikkiT2, posted by ~Alii~ on October 31, 2002, at 6:17:25
Sorry - I don't see that at all... All i see him saying is that posters would still have to stick to the civility guidelines.. thats all..
Nikki
Posted by ~Alii~ on October 31, 2002, at 6:54:04
In reply to Re: So not all mental illness is welcome here? » ~Alii~, posted by NikkiT2 on October 31, 2002, at 6:31:05
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 31, 2002, at 7:22:58
In reply to We see only what we want to see I guess.... (nm), posted by ~Alii~ on October 31, 2002, at 6:54:04
Pardon??? Are you saying that I am looking at this with a closed mind??
I could say the same to you, as you are constantly posting negative things about this board and Dr Bob... maybe you are reading into Dr Bobs message things that aren't really there.
I'm really quite offended by your implication that my mind is not open enough to "see what you see".
Nikki
Posted by ~Alii~ on October 31, 2002, at 10:19:36
In reply to Re: We see only what we want to see I guess...., posted by NikkiT2 on October 31, 2002, at 7:22:58
And I madam, am amazed that you interpret all that from my one line answer in the subject line.
We see what we want to. That is all.
As for implications? You are the one to put yours out there. I commend you for expressing yourself but imply away. I wrote one line that can be taken many ways *or* just taken as it was written.
You are free to be offended as you wish. My intent on this board has never been to set out with intent to offend.
I appreciate you took the time to respond since my posts seem to strike a nerve with you.
--Alii> Pardon??? Are you saying that I am looking at this with a closed mind??
>
> I could say the same to you, as you are constantly posting negative things about this board and Dr Bob... maybe you are reading into Dr Bobs message things that aren't really there.
>
> I'm really quite offended by your implication that my mind is not open enough to "see what you see".
>
> Nikki
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 31, 2002, at 16:46:16
In reply to Re: We see only what we want to see I guess.... » NikkiT2, posted by ~Alii~ on October 31, 2002, at 10:19:36
Its not your posts per se that strike a nerve with me, but I really hate seeing Dr Bob critised all the time for trying to help.
I don't agree with everything he does, but i try to mould to it, as i enjoy being here, and i want my visits to this site to continue to be enjoyable.
Nikki
Posted by IsoM on October 31, 2002, at 16:52:02
In reply to Re: more new boards, posted by Dr. Bob on October 30, 2002, at 19:41:04
Bob, while I was at first enthusiastic about having a PB Fiction, I'm not sure if it's going to work now.
-------"> If people on these boards have been banned for quoting from literature that is well known and taught at a majority of universities then I fail to see how original works by these wonderfully creative types will fall inside your ever changing rules of civility.
>
> --AliiWell, sonnets can be original and creative, can't they? Even though they have to follow certain rules? Granted, those rules don't ever change...
Support would still be a higher priority than freedom of speech. So, unfortunately, those with a particular style or "voice" might be excluded."
---------I think it's nice to have sweet, flowery prose if someone wishes to post it & yes, I also think you might want to have 'some' sort of limits (but not restraints) on what can be posted, but if all sorts of rules are going to be made about this board too, it would only cause more problems & curb creativity. And then, in the end, what would the purpose of this new board be? No more than spoon-fed Pablum.
Let's take something that we can all agree isn't vulgar & repugnant to anyone - Hemmingway's works. His writings are used in schools & not banned anywhere that I know of, but would you consider that his works are "supportive"? I can't see how anyone could think so. His pain is tangible, & I can't imagine how anyone could see support in his writings. So according to your post about support, he wouldn't be allowed to post, right?
The idea of a PB Fiction board is to allow people tormented & angst-ridden (I hate using that term, it sounds so cliche) to post as well as those who just wish a venue to release their creative writings. Can't we agree that not all writings may be suitable for everyone to read? Can't we have a new icon (perhaps a red warning icon) that would alert anyone who wouldn't wish to read such works? I was hoping that such a board would serve to help & heal those who need to express their pain somewhere & to share with others. It's not an unreasonable compromise to use a red warning icon. Please, Bob, consider that not everyone can look at life through rose coloured glasses, & those that can't, aren't out to hurt others. All they're doing is trying to reach someone who understands. There is a real need for an outlet to their pain.
Have you ever seen the pictures that child psychologists encourage traumatized kids to draw or paint? Some of them can be pretty horrific, but their purpose is to help a child express the pain & release bottled up memories to lead them to healing. Why can't PB Fiction be such a site for us? It may not be a flowered lined pathway to mental health but I doubt that it's going to be as harmful as you may imagine.
Posted by oracle on October 31, 2002, at 17:44:33
In reply to Re: more new boards, posted by Dr. Bob on October 30, 2002, at 19:41:04
> > I see a big problem with the way copyrights are handled here. I would have a problem with "unrestricted use" of my original creative works.
> >
> > oracle
>
> Good point... What if that didn't apply to that board? So I'd ask for permission to reproduce those posts. Like anyone else would. Or at least should...
>
> BobThat would work for me.
Posted by Ç®ëëþý Tabitha on October 31, 2002, at 23:09:15
In reply to Re: more new boards, posted by oracle on October 31, 2002, at 17:44:33
How about some kind of shared goal support board, or topics? Kind of like a book club, but instead of agreeing to read a book, we agree to try some new healthy behavior. We'd offer each other support in carrying it out, and trade info on the results. For instance, a bunch of people agree to start taking fish oil supplements for a month and see what happens. Or somebody writes a guided visualization, and we make a tape of it and use it daily for a month. Or some kind of goal like doing one unusually assertive or unusually kind act per day.
If we couldn't get everyone to agree on one habit per month, we could have different threads going. Maybe only 3 people would be in the fish oil club/thread, for instance, and other threads would do other things.
The more I ramble on about this idea the more I like it.
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