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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by beckett2 on August 27, 2018, at 22:24:06
I think it's helping. Today I realized I was cooking...and enjoying myself. I haven't enjoyed preparing food for at least 7 years. I also feel a little more 'creative'.
Posted by sigismund on August 27, 2018, at 22:52:08
In reply to MMJ and anhedonia, posted by beckett2 on August 27, 2018, at 22:24:06
That's nice to hear.
I find it useful for depression and pain.
Posted by SLS on August 28, 2018, at 6:22:27
In reply to MMJ and anhedonia, posted by beckett2 on August 27, 2018, at 22:24:06
> I think it's helping. Today I realized I was cooking...and enjoying myself. I haven't enjoyed preparing food for at least 7 years. I also feel a little more 'creative'.
That's impressive. How were you able to get the MMJ? Did you have a prescription?
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on August 28, 2018, at 11:58:50
In reply to MMJ and anhedonia, posted by beckett2 on August 27, 2018, at 22:24:06
Hey,
I have been using medical marijanna in Canada for about 6 months now. It has improved my sleep and anxiety to a noticeable degree.
Also, like you, I have noticed an improvement in anhedonia. Specifically, I have returned interest in playing piano, hiking and watching movies.
Also (which could be related but unsure) I have worked up enough nerve to apply to certain jobs.
I find that the stress doesn't produce as much intense anxiety. I notice a bit more resiliance, in the sense that I don't quit / give up as quickly in the face of anxiety. I seem to be able to tollerate uncertainty a bit better.
Linkadge
Posted by sigismund on August 28, 2018, at 15:04:13
In reply to Re: MMJ and anhedonia, posted by sigismund on August 27, 2018, at 22:52:08
Sleep and music too.
Posted by bleauberry on August 31, 2018, at 7:03:37
In reply to MMJ and anhedonia, posted by beckett2 on August 27, 2018, at 22:24:06
MMJ is both good and bad for anhedonia.
In the short run - the first 1-2 hours of consumption, anhedonia can indeed become much less. But as the effect wears off it turns into a couch potato thing and then the anhedonia is maybe worse than before.
So it's a timing thing. You time your consumption for your activities.
That said, I know a guy who suffered years with treatment resistant depression. He was a lost cause. After they let him out of the hospital he was still suicidal. Someone offered him a joint to smoke. That was a life changing moment for him.
To this day that guy is perfectly normal -psychiatrically - and engaged in productive life. But to stay that way he requires high doses of MMJ. He smokes all day from morning coffee to bedtime and he also consumes a lot of edibles. His eyes are not red and he isn't high. His tolerance is extremely high. But so is the beneficial effect. He has no depression or anhedonia as long as he stays on high doses of MMJ all the time.
Posted by sigismund on September 5, 2018, at 0:28:34
In reply to Re: MMJ and anhedonia, posted by bleauberry on August 31, 2018, at 7:03:37
Posted by bleauberry on September 6, 2018, at 6:24:35
In reply to Re: MMJ and anhedonia, posted by sigismund on September 5, 2018, at 0:28:34
I would just like to add an additional comment that I think it is wrong when our medical community lumps depression and anhedonia into the same category. If you have depression you most likely have anhedonia too. But you can have anhedonia without having depression. Anhedonia can be part of a larger complex but it can also be a stand-alone thing.
In my case I think doctors misdiagnosed me the whole time. They said I had Major Depressive Disorder. But much of the time I wasn't really blue, slept good, ate good, no pain, not really depressed - but the anhedonia itself was majorly crippling. The last thing you want to do with that is give it more serotonin. But that's exactly what the doctors did, one after another after another. It wasn't until a freaking nurse said try Ritalin for anhedonia that I realized the doctors had been lost the whole time.
So I just wanted to offer a caution about thinking of anhedonia and depression as the same thing because they are not the same thing.
This post lends a good example to how Depression Tests go awry. Ok assume you just took one of those questionnaires and your total points puts you in the category of depression. That's because you answer the questions to poor sleep, poor eating, pain, low energy, etc, all that stuff that can go with depression, you did bad on all that and you also have no interest in hobbies (that's the anhedonia part of it). Ok so you take an antidepressant. A couple months later your sleep is improved, eating is normal, energy improved, and because of all that you aren't in depression category anymore. Your doctor says you are doing good. But you still have no more interest in hobbies or activities than you did in full depression mode. Anhedonia is stronger than ever. You are still basically as useless as you were with depression, despite the doctor says you aren't depressed anymore, because the anhedonia is a separate monster not treated by the antidepressant. You are not better. But the test says you are. Your total points came down. But you are still sick and crippled despite the doctor's assurance.
And that is how a whole lot of the scientific studies we all put so much trust into go awry and give us improper assumptions and conclusions.
in my opinion. difficult to explain.
Posted by SLS on September 6, 2018, at 8:59:45
In reply to Re: MMJ and anhedonia, posted by bleauberry on September 6, 2018, at 6:24:35
I think it is accurate to say that not all anhedonia is the result of a depressive disorder. However, it can be. Drawing upon my own experiences with bipolar depression, when antidepressants alone improved my depression, anhedonia improved along with it. I found Nardil to be the most hopeful in this regard. However, my response to Nardil is usually short-lived. Effexor and Cymbalta also helped with anhedonia when I responded to them.
For me, Focalin (dexmethyphenidate) gave me more mental energy, but did nothing for anhedonia. I found Focalin better than Ritalin (methylphenidate).
- Scott
Posted by bleauberry on September 21, 2018, at 11:01:41
In reply to Re: MMJ and anhedonia, posted by SLS on September 6, 2018, at 8:59:45
Eleuthero. Rhodiola. Ashwaganha. Cordyceps. Holy basil. Astragulus. Reishi. Licorice. And more. I mention these because they all work to balance out the glucocorticoid system, sort of like agonists and antagonists all in one. I take full dose Rhodiola every day, full dose Ashwaganda, full dose Cordyceps, and smaller dose of a product called Adaptogen made by Paradise Herbs which has a couple dozen of these all in one. The synergy of these kinds of compounds is helpful to a wide array of symptoms, diseases, and syndromes, including anhedonia and depression.
I agree with this article. I especially agree with their theory that anhedonia is mostly a dopamine thing. That's why I always scratch my head when a depression patient's worst symptom is anhedonia and they give them a serotonin med instead and squash out dopamine and then wonder why the patient got so numb.
Investigating dopamine and glucocorticoid systems as underlying mechanisms of anhedonia.
Lamontagne SJ1, Melendez SI1, Olmstead MC2,3.
Author information
Abstract
RATIONALE:
Anhedonia, a deficit in reward processing, is an endophenotype of several neuropsychiatric conditions. Despite its prevalence and debilitating effects, treatments for anhedonia are lacking, primarily because its underlying mechanisms are poorly understood. Dopamine (DA) has been implicated in anhedonia through its role in reward-related learning; glucocorticoid systems may also be involved in that anhedonia is often preceded by chronic stress.
OBJECTIVE:
This study investigated DA and glucocorticoid systems in anhedonia using a rat version of the probabilistic reward task (PRT).
METHODS:
Adult male Wistar rats were trained on the PRT and then tested following: (1) activation or inhibition of DA activity induced by amphetamine (AMPH) or pramipexole (PRAMI) injections, (2) chronic mild stress (CMS), or (3) glucocorticoid system activation (dexamethasone (DEX)) or inhibition (mifepristone (MIFE)).
RESULTS:
AMPH increased and PRAMI decreased response bias, pointing to enhanced and diminished reward responsiveness with DA agonism and antagonism, respectively. CMS reduced response bias but only in a subpopulation of rats. DEX also decreased response bias, suggesting that glucocorticoid processes contribute to anhedonia, although glucocorticoid inhibition (MIFE) had no effect. None of the manipulations altered the ability to detect and respond to reward-paired stimuli.
CONCLUSIONS:
These results confirm a role of DA in anhedonia and elucidate the contribution of the glucocorticoid system to this effect. In addition, chronic stress may interfere with normal DA functioning, leading to impaired reward-related learning in some animals. These findings may direct future treatment of anhedonia by targeting DA and glucocorticoid systems, as well as a possible interaction between the two.> I think it is accurate to say that not all anhedonia is the result of a depressive disorder. However, it can be. Drawing upon my own experiences with bipolar depression, when antidepressants alone improved my depression, anhedonia improved along with it. I found Nardil to be the most hopeful in this regard. However, my response to Nardil is usually short-lived. Effexor and Cymbalta also helped with anhedonia when I responded to them.
>
> For me, Focalin (dexmethyphenidate) gave me more mental energy, but did nothing for anhedonia. I found Focalin better than Ritalin (methylphenidate).
>
>
> - Scott
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