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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 34. Go back in thread:
Posted by rjlockhart37 on December 24, 2015, at 11:53:54
In reply to Re: Prozac has improved some of my life » rjlockhart37, posted by SLS on December 24, 2015, at 6:54:51
we'll it's just i've kinda just out there.....i mean im not saying there's anything wrong with the term, but it just.....it was seemed years ago i would post things that i leanred not to post now currently, i guess social improvement, and keepig my tongue short and saying things that are relevant, keeping on topic
what i do know about the disorder i have is i am vary vary forgetful and lose things, i have trouble keeping task, i can get vary depressed and mood swings, but those are just symptoms, and they can be improved i think......but i always lose things, my keys, my phone, my basic nessescities because i just go into like a trance state and put it down and have no recollection of what i did with it.....
Posted by Tomatheus on December 24, 2015, at 13:29:04
In reply to Re: Prozac has improved some of my life, posted by rjlockhart37 on December 24, 2015, at 1:45:39
> we'll let's not put it, i know the crazy i posted over the years but i don't want it to be associated with me perosnally as mental illness as a person, it's more of struggles that i learned from, and still having some......
Hi RJ,
Thank you for your reply. I think I know where you're coming from in having written what you wrote above, as I myself don't like to look at mental illness as something that defines me as much as I like to look at it as one of many challenges that I live with. But in writing what I wrote in my previous post, I was mainly wishing to convey that it's nice to hear that you've found a treatment that you seem to benefit from in some respect and that it's particularly nice to hear about your response to Prozac given some of the struggles that you've described on this board, as well as the difficulties you've described with responding to medications. And although I think it can be helpful to acknowledge improvements in our well being when they occur, I also understand that identifying with our symptoms and illnesses to too great of an extent can perhaps take away from the fact that there is so much more to our lives than just these challenges that we face pertaining to our mental health.
At any rate, I think that you came up with some valid points in your post, and I thank you again for having posted in response to the reply that I wrote. I hope that the holiday season will treat you and all here on Psycho-Babble well.
Tomatheus
Posted by rjlockhart37 on December 24, 2015, at 15:38:21
In reply to Re: Prozac has improved some of my life, posted by rjlockhart37 on December 24, 2015, at 1:45:39
it wasnt ment as a term to refer to others as the same thing, it was more of the silly stuff i learned from, i mean i think who we are makes us unique and have individuel qualities, yet they can change and see new view points, in like life situations
i was refering to my posts, i wasnt referring or pointing out a term to others with that refernence......
i realized that came across referring other people as that same, no.....it's just people who know me personally know i lose things and can be dorky, it's just who i am, and there's nothing wrong that but i started choosing to move away from being ... whatever i didnt like about myself......
i think everyone is unique and has their own story and writing of it
Posted by rjlockhart37 on December 24, 2015, at 15:39:06
In reply to Re: Prozac has improved some of my life, posted by rjlockhart37 on December 24, 2015, at 15:38:21
thanks Tomatheus
r
Posted by rjlockhart37 on December 24, 2015, at 15:48:28
In reply to Re: Prozac has improved some of my life, posted by rjlockhart37 on December 24, 2015, at 15:39:06
i justed wanted to clear that i didnt want to use that term "mental illness" as degrading to others.....
i say things sometimes and not really quite think of what out come may be, think before i speak
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 24, 2015, at 15:55:19
In reply to Re: SLS, posted by rjlockhart37 on December 24, 2015, at 15:48:28
Well even psychiatrists call it disorder, not disease or illness.
Its not "bipolar illness" or "major depressive illness" . You see what i mean?
Posted by SLS on December 24, 2015, at 19:25:26
In reply to Re: SLS, posted by rjlockhart37 on December 24, 2015, at 15:48:28
> i justed wanted to clear that i didnt want to use that term "mental illness" as degrading to others.....
>
> i say things sometimes and not really quite think of what out come may be, think before i speakI am not at all offended or disappointed in you. I'm glad you are the type of person to speaks his mind.
I totally understand where you are coming from. It took me a long while to deal with the thought that I had a mental illness - which I do. I had been defining that term as I did years ago when I was growing up. I remember how I felt about others who were called mentally ill. I thought of them as having an unstable, warped psyche for which they were to blame because they were mentally weak.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on December 24, 2015, at 19:33:49
In reply to Re: SLS, posted by Lamdage22 on December 24, 2015, at 15:55:19
> Well even psychiatrists call it disorder, not disease or illness.
>
> Its not "bipolar illness" or "major depressive illness" . You see what i mean?Sorry, Lamdage. Bipolar disorder is an illness. What else would it be? Major depression is a mood illness. There is a very famous book entitled "Manic Depressive Illness" written by Goodwin and Jamison. They understand such illnesses as being psychobiological. It is a bit complicated, but not too difficult to understand. The nomenclature is that of science and medicine. It is not mine. It is not a matter of opinion.
- Scott
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 25, 2015, at 10:26:13
In reply to Re: SLS, posted by SLS on December 24, 2015, at 19:33:49
Its just a name, Scott.
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 25, 2015, at 10:26:40
In reply to Re: SLS, posted by SLS on December 24, 2015, at 19:33:49
Its just a name, Scott.
Posted by SLS on December 25, 2015, at 12:58:03
In reply to Re: SLS, posted by Lamdage22 on December 25, 2015, at 10:26:13
> Its just a name, Scott.
Words matter to most people.
Words are important.
I don't understand the motivation for your reply. Are you annoyed? Words are obviously important enough to another poster in this thread such as to prompt this discussion.
- Scott
Posted by elanor roosevelt on December 25, 2015, at 15:04:10
In reply to Re: SLS » Lamdage22, posted by SLS on December 25, 2015, at 12:58:03
for psychiatry to become an accepted science it was necessary to categorize and label the hell out of everything. we fall into categories that science does not consider "normal" we don't fit in to the expectation of the order of things. so we are labeled as having an "illness" or disorder"
due to the fantasy sanity facade in our society the "mental disorder or illness" labels intimidate and disturb the "norms" they want us to pull it all together or at least pull together a facade. they see us as weak and unwilling to make the effort to be "normal" and if we are unable to "get well" under the guidance of therapists and through the wisdom of the pharmaceutical industry, even the science of psychiatry, at times, want us to take the blame..or at least go away.all this, in a society where meanness, selfishness, inconsideration, hateful exclusion,dishonesty and greed fall into the norm
Posted by SLS on December 25, 2015, at 16:40:26
In reply to labels, posted by elanor roosevelt on December 25, 2015, at 15:04:10
> for psychiatry to become an accepted science it was necessary to categorize and label the hell out of everything.
Labels have gotten a bad rap.
We all use labels and categorizations to organize thought and communicate ideas. It is at the heart of humanity. You might not like certain words and models for disease, so your continuing to push for change might yield results that you find more appealing. However, identifying a problem is only half the battle. Do you have any suggestions for how we may rid ourselves of labels completely, or is it simply a matter of the words being chosen?
Would it be okay with you to be labelled mentally ill if that term were completely understood and did not receive stigmatization in society? If not, why not?
At one time, "cancer" was a word to be left unsaid. One was stigmatized for having cancer. People were afraid of it and did not want to be around it. Would you wish to rid ourselves of that label? If not, why not?
Sometimes, people try to avoid self-stigmatization by rejecting labels that have been used to describe their situation in life. Although I acknowledge having a mental illness now, this was not always true. I am still reluctant to use the term in public. I am not ready to launch a crusade against the stigma attached to the label "mental illness" so that it may continue to be used as the accurate description of bipolar disorder that it is. People have grown up with a certain concept of what mental illness is. It often includes notions of weakness, strangeness, and danger. But I know better. So does science.
- Scott
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 26, 2015, at 1:45:04
In reply to Re: labels » elanor roosevelt, posted by SLS on December 25, 2015, at 16:40:26
no i am not annoyed.
I think mental illness has things in common with physical illness, but it is also distinct in a way.
Posted by SLS on December 26, 2015, at 6:51:19
In reply to Re: labels, posted by Lamdage22 on December 26, 2015, at 1:45:04
> no i am not annoyed.
>
> I think mental illness has things in common with physical illness, but it is also distinct in a way.I agree completely. Many mental illnesses are predominantly physical. It's just that they affect the brain rather than the liver or other organs. Since brain function is the seat of mental function, a brain disorder is a mental illness. As complicated as mind, body, and brain interactions are, so, too, are scientific nomenclature and categorization. You can't build a model without labeling its parts.
You gotta call these things something. I have absolutely no objection to finding different terms to use. "Depression" is really a generic term that is used to describe a great many things. Perfectly mental healthy and biologically resilient people often experience a "depression" as a reaction to a situation or life circumstance. They can often work their way out of it psychologically without biological intervention. This is not so much true for depression when it occurs as a manifestation of "Major Depressive Disorder" or "Bipolar Disorder". Even some "personality disorders" have biological underpinnings.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on December 26, 2015, at 7:03:50
In reply to Re: labels » Lamdage22, posted by SLS on December 26, 2015, at 6:51:19
I wrote this 15 years ago for Psycho-Babble. It is brief. I feel that this is an appropriate thread to repost it in. I would revise it were I to rewrite it. New data, new understandings, new models, and new theories of illness have been produced in the years since.
- Scott---------------------------------------------------
BIOLOGY OR PSYCHOLOGY?
The best answer to this question may be either and both.Most of us here have been diagnosed as having a mental illness. Mental illnesses are not mental weaknesses. The diagnoses that we are most familiar with include:
1.Major Depressive (MDD - Unipolar Depression)
2.Bipolar Disorder (BD - Manic Depression)
3.Dysthymia (Minor Depression)
4.Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD)
5.Schizophrenia
6.Schizoaffective Disorder
7.Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD)
8.Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD)
9.Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD)
10.Panic Disorder
All of these disorders have one thing in common. They are not our fault. Each disorder has both biological and psychological components. We all begin our lives with a brain that is built using the blueprints contained within the genes we inherit from our parents. Later, hormones change the brain to prepare it for adulthood. It is continually being changed by the things we experience. The brain determines the mind as the mind sculpts the brain. Unfortunately, the brain can also be changed in negative ways by things such as drugs, alcohol, injury, and chronic stress.How we think and feel are influenced by our environment. Probably the most important environment during our development is that of the family, with the most important time being our childhood. We all have both positive and negative experiences as we travel through life. How we are as adults is in large part determined by these positive and negative experiences. They affect our psychology, our emotions, and our behaviors. All of us can be hurt by unhealthy negative experiences.
Some of us are also hurt by unhealthy brains. Medical science has long recognized that many mental illnesses are actually biological disorders. Even Sigmund Freud, who we know for his development of psychoanalysis, proposed a role for biology in mental illness. He was, after all, a neurologist. The first solid evidence for this concept in modern times came with the discovery of lithium in 1947. Lithium was found to cause the symptoms of bipolar disorder (manic-depression) to disappear completely, allowing previously disabled people to lead normal lives. Lithium helps to correct for the abnormal neurotransmission in the brain that is the cause of bipolar disorder. Subsequent medical discoveries included the observations that the drug, Thorazine (an antipsychotic), successfully treated schizophrenia, and that Tofranil (an antidepressant) successfully treated depression. Again, these drugs help to correct for the abnormal biology of the brain that accompanies these disorders.
What about psychology? What role does it play in mental illness? This can be a two-way street. The abnormal biology that occurs with some mental illnesses affects our psychology how we think, feel, and behave. On the other hand, our psychology can also affect our biology. As we now know, the emotional stresses and traumas we experience change the way our brains operate. This is especially true of things we experience during childhood. These stresses can trigger the induction of abnormal brain function that leads to major depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and other major mental illnesses. In order for this to happen, however, there must be a genetic or some other biological vulnerability to begin with.
Unfortunately, there are still too many people who cannot bring themselves to believe that the most common mental illnesses are actually brain disorders. However, the vast majority of our top researchers in psychiatry and neuroscience do.
The National Institutes of Health, the federal governments official repository of medical research, has made available to the public free publications describing the current research into psychiatric disorders. They include descriptions of the biological and psychological aspects of major mental illness. Each press release and research publication begins by stating emphatically that these are indeed brain disorders.
NIMH Public Inquiries
6001 Executive Boulevard, Rm. 8184, MSC 9663
Bethesda, MD 20892-9663 U.S.A.
Voice (301) 443-4513; Fax (301) 443-4279
TTY (301) 443-8431It is important to remember that not all psychological and emotional difficulties are biological in origin. Again, we are all products of our environments family, friends, enemies, school, work, culture, climate, love, war, etc. Environments that are unhealthy often produce unhealthy people. However, this, too, is not our fault.
In conclusion, regardless of the cause of our mental illnesses, it is important that we treat both the biological and the psychological. We will all benefit most if we do.
- Scott
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 26, 2015, at 14:26:03
In reply to Re: labels, posted by SLS on December 26, 2015, at 7:03:50
> In conclusion, regardless of the cause of our mental illnesses, it is important that we treat both the biological and the psychological. We will all benefit most if we do.
>
>
> - ScottTell this to my mother who had been diagnosed with depression on several occasions. She will say something like "shut up".
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 26, 2015, at 14:33:12
In reply to Re: labels, posted by Lamdage22 on December 26, 2015, at 14:26:03
It hurts.
Posted by SLS on December 26, 2015, at 14:55:13
In reply to Re: labels, posted by Lamdage22 on December 26, 2015, at 14:33:12
> It hurts.
I am sad to see you hurting.
- Scott
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 26, 2015, at 18:27:03
In reply to Re: labels » Lamdage22, posted by SLS on December 26, 2015, at 14:55:13
In reading this thread, I have found myself identifying with every poster. Labels hurt, when they seem to be used to take something away from another.
But we have to use some sort of descriptive language, a short-hand of sorts, or we find ourselves having to define concepts with sentences or paragraphs, rather than by individual words or short phrases.
While reading what others have said, I have pondered whether "lack of wellness" is synonymous with "illness". Myself, I'm not 100% of that opinion, but during those periods of my life when I could not work, did not attend even to the affairs of daily living (bathing, cooking good food, opening mail, etc.), I was not well. I was not functioning well, in any case.
But what do you call it?
I don't think there will ever be a descriptor for poor mental health that suits all of us, all of the time.
I'm going to raise another issue, an implication of the language descriptive of the lack of mental health (I struggle to find the words to even raise the issue itself). For many years, I struggled with what was labeled as major depression. It took me a long time to learn that my mood depression was merely a symptom of a different "disorder/illness", namely PTSD. I was burned out by it. No "medical treatment" for my "illness", i.e. medication, was ever successful. I was "treatment resistant", probably because ineffective treatments were selected for my care based on a restrictive view of my "symptoms".
It was this place (Psycho-Babble) that opened new ways of seeing, that helped me to move forward from being a treatment-resistant "outlier".
It took my writing this to see my own message. Please try and look beyond the semantics of others, and feel the empathy and understanding. We are all here by choice, and for a reason. If our treatment modalities had worked without a hitch, there would be no reason to look deeper, or to have joined this group.
Regards,
Lar
Posted by baseball55 on December 26, 2015, at 19:23:07
In reply to labels, posted by elanor roosevelt on December 25, 2015, at 15:04:10
The idea that we are labeled because we "disturb the norms" is kind of what Szasz (?sp) and Foucault argued. When I got depressed and started see a doctor for meds and therapy, my husband went into this whole rant on this. My response was, and is, it's not like these mental health practitioners are out trolling the street for clients, labeling everyone who violates social norms and throwing them in institutions. That may have been true in the 1800s and early 1900s, but it's not true today. We, ourselves, seek out help not because we are violating social norms, but because we feel awful and want to feel better. We go to them, they don't come to us. If labels are necessary to get paid by insurance companies, so be it.
My diagnosis is MDD, but there are features that are not quite consistent with the DSM definition of MDD. My doctor just says, you have a serious mood disorder, call it Bipolar 3-A or whatever. But for insurance purposes, he calls it MDD. F33, by the way. (I have to submit my own claims).
> for psychiatry to become an accepted science it was necessary to categorize and label the hell out of everything. we fall into categories that science does not consider "normal" we don't fit in to the expectation of the order of things. so we are labeled as having an "illness" or disorder"
> due to the fantasy sanity facade in our society the "mental disorder or illness" labels intimidate and disturb the "norms" they want us to pull it all together or at least pull together a facade. they see us as weak and unwilling to make the effort to be "normal" and if we are unable to "get well" under the guidance of therapists and through the wisdom of the pharmaceutical industry, even the science of psychiatry, at times, want us to take the blame..or at least go away.
>
> all this, in a society where meanness, selfishness, inconsideration, hateful exclusion,dishonesty and greed fall into the norm
>
>
>
Posted by elanor roosevelt on December 27, 2015, at 16:08:11
In reply to Re: labels » elanor roosevelt, posted by SLS on December 25, 2015, at 16:40:26
> > for psychiatry to become an accepted science it was necessary to categorize and label the hell out of everything.
>
> Labels have gotten a bad rap.
>
> We all use labels and categorizations to organize thought and communicate ideas. It is at the heart of humanity. You might not like certain words and models for disease, so your continuing to push for change might yield results that you find more appealing. However, identifying a problem is only half the battle. Do you have any suggestions for how we may rid ourselves of labels completely, or is it simply a matter of the words being chosen?
>
> Would it be okay with you to be labelled mentally ill if that term were completely understood and did not receive stigmatization in society? If not, why not?
>
> At one time, "cancer" was a word to be left unsaid. One was stigmatized for having cancer. People were afraid of it and did not want to be around it. Would you wish to rid ourselves of that label? If not, why not?
>
> Sometimes, people try to avoid self-stigmatization by rejecting labels that have been used to describe their situation in life. Although I acknowledge having a mental illness now, this was not always true. I am still reluctant to use the term in public. I am not ready to launch a crusade against the stigma attached to the label "mental illness" so that it may continue to be used as the accurate description of bipolar disorder that it is. People have grown up with a certain concept of what mental illness is. It often includes notions of weakness, strangeness, and danger. But I know better. So does science.
>
>
> - ScottThe stigmatization is the problem. Being "mentally ill" is simply the reality. I'm mentally ill and, although I haven't had a drink in a quarter century, I'm an alcoholic. These are terms that don't have positive associations. This sort of terms define one as an "other."
Posted by baseball55 on December 27, 2015, at 19:36:27
In reply to Re: labels, posted by elanor roosevelt on December 27, 2015, at 16:08:11
>
> The stigmatization is the problem. Being "mentally ill" is simply the reality. I'm mentally ill and, although I haven't had a drink in a quarter century, I'm an alcoholic. These are terms that don't have positive associations. This sort of terms define one as an "other."
>I don't know. I tell people I have MDD and, when I do, I find out that half the population has had episodes of depression and are taking some kind of anti-depressant. Of course, I don't tell them I've attempted suicide and been hospitalized several times for weeks at a time. Too much disclosure. More than most can handle. But I don't think MDD carries much stigma these days. Maybe bipolar does. My nephew has schizophrenia and, when I talk to people about this, most are interested and empathetic. Of course, he's not living on the streets talking to himself...
Posted by SLS on December 28, 2015, at 6:26:57
In reply to Re: labels, posted by baseball55 on December 27, 2015, at 19:36:27
> But I don't think MDD carries much stigma these days. Maybe bipolar does.
It used to be okay to be bipolar when it was considered benign. Now that bipolar disorder has been attached to murderous acts in the media, it is considered to be a more extreme and dangerous mental illness. I am more reluctant to disclose my illness now than I was ten years ago.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on December 30, 2015, at 16:49:04
In reply to Re: labels, posted by baseball55 on December 27, 2015, at 19:36:27
I agree with the depression DX & anxiety also. Half the people I know in real life take an antidepressant and it's openly talked about. Also benzos very common. Phillipa
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