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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by oceansun on October 8, 2014, at 20:27:28
I'm worried I'm getting Parkinson's-like symptoms from taking Abilify 5-15 mg for 7 years. I almost drool sometimes and have painful marked muscle stiffness. I've had muscle pain for years, but the drooling and stiffness are new.
I read that having EPS can put you at higher risk of tardive dyskinesia. Is this true? I would rather stop Abilify than even possibly get TD! Also, is it true that EPS is reversible when you discontinue the drug?
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 8, 2014, at 21:27:39
In reply to Does EPS put you at higher risk for TD? Worried!, posted by oceansun on October 8, 2014, at 20:27:28
> I'm worried I'm getting Parkinson's-like symptoms from taking Abilify 5-15 mg for 7 years. I almost drool sometimes and have painful marked muscle stiffness. I've had muscle pain for years, but the drooling and stiffness are new.
>
> I read that having EPS can put you at higher risk of tardive dyskinesia. Is this true? I would rather stop Abilify than even possibly get TD! Also, is it true that EPS is reversible when you discontinue the drug?o_s,
You wrote about TD and if EPS is reversible and stopping Abilify.
Be advised that discontinuing Abilify could lead you to kill yourself. And continuing the drug could lead to permanent involuntary movements and a lifetime of misery from TD.
Stopping the drug makes sense and if you know what to expect when the withdrawal strikes you, you could prevent suicide, for it is in that state that suicidal ideation can appear. But taking more drugs can lead you down a road that leads to death.
If you are going to undertake the task of withdrawing from the drug, a lot of armor may be needed. This armor I am prevented from posting about here due to prohibitions posted to me here by Mr. Hsiung. I would like to see you be freed from this horror that could come to you from these drugs, for what you have posted could be the beginning of sorrows.
Lou
Posted by Phillipa on October 8, 2014, at 23:47:46
In reply to Lou's response-brodroed » oceansun, posted by Lou Pilder on October 8, 2014, at 21:27:39
Lou remember we are not doctors. Phillipa
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 9, 2014, at 5:28:39
In reply to Re: Lou's response-brodroed » Lou Pilder, posted by Phillipa on October 8, 2014, at 23:47:46
> Lou remember we are not doctors. Phillipa
P,
You wrote for me to remember that I am not a doctor. I am aware of that. But if what I have posted to the poster here is considered by you to constitute being a doctor, be advised that what I have posted to that poster does not constitute being a doctor.
What I have posted to the poster is a warning to save that person's life and/or prevent a life-ruining condition or addiction. My warning tells of the potential for being in withdrawal from that drug to have suicidal ideation. That is what my concept of support and education is, and this site is for support and education.
One does not have to be a doctor to know of what the literature tells of these drugs and posters can post what could be helpful for another to know. The poster wants to know particular things about if the drug could cause TD and if removing the drug could reverse the movement disorder described. My post is to help that person understand the potential for death from that drug. And when the poster goes back to their prescriber, there could be a better understanding of the poster's situation and how to proceed from there. The prescriber could also then understand that by prescribing the drug, the poster's life may be ruined. Then the prescriber could have more understanding going forward in prescribing the drug to others.
The tragedy here is that Mr Hsiung has posted prohibitions to me that prevent me from showing how the poster could overcome the addiction and withdrawal that he/she could face from the drug. It would come from a Jewish perspective as revealed to me and since the prohibition to me is against the Jewish perspective as revealred to me, a subset of readers could think that the policy by Mr. Hsiung toward me is an anti-Semitic policy. Those readers could have a rational basis to think that if they know that Mr. Hsiung does allow the foundation of hatred toward the Jews in anti-Semitic propaganda being allowed to be seen here as civil and supportive and will be good in Mr Hsiung's thinking for the community as a whole, while the foundation of Judaism as revealed to me is prohibited by me to be posted here, and those readers could think that anti-Semitism is promulgated when a policy is a against Judaism. This is sometimes called {anti-Judaism}. Then if those readers know that Mr. Hsiung has a policy to offer members to use a feature to alert him of incivility, yet he gives himself the option to respond to my alerts, while saying that he will respond to others, as I am listed as the only exception by him, that policy could keep me from having him address the anti-Semitic statements and defamation against me here which could allow those to be seen as civil where they are originally posted. That could induce hostile and disagreeable feelings and opinions about me and stigmatize me to the readers here. This is because Mr. Hsiung says that by him refusing to honor his terms of service to me while he states that he will respond to notifications to others in relation to responding to my years of notifications, that he not responding to my notifications will be good for this community as a whole in his thinking. These readers could think that his policy is discriminatory against the Jews, for he can refuse to address anti-Semitic statements that I have alerted him to, and his thinking is that it will be good for this community as a whole to do so. I say not and I want readers that come here for support and education to know this so that they can be helped to have their lives saved, have life-ruining conditions avoided and be able to withdrawal from addicting drugs. Since I can not post what I need to due to the prohibitions, readers could be cheated out of knowing what could save their life from me. That could lead readers to think that support is not what this site really is for.
Lou
Posted by Phillipa on October 9, 2014, at 20:17:30
In reply to Lou's response-notdokz » Phillipa, posted by Lou Pilder on October 9, 2014, at 5:28:39
Lou meds have nothing to do with the Jewish Faith nor do they work different in Jewish People. So please allow the poster to get his information from his doctor and if likes a second opinion. And be leery of what you read on the internet as much is not true. Phiilipa
Posted by Lamdage22 on October 10, 2014, at 11:24:57
In reply to Does EPS put you at higher risk for TD? Worried!, posted by oceansun on October 8, 2014, at 20:27:28
Take either Seroquel or Clozapine.
Seroquel is the second least likely to cause TD and Clozapine the least likely.
Clozapine has other side effects though that Seroquel does not.Maybe someone else more knowledgeable can inform you.
Good luck
Posted by Lamdage22 on October 10, 2014, at 11:27:18
In reply to Re: Does EPS put you at higher risk for TD? Worried!, posted by Lamdage22 on October 10, 2014, at 11:24:57
Posted by Lamdage22 on October 10, 2014, at 11:28:44
In reply to SWITCH! -) Seroquel or Clozapine-)less likely TD. (nm), posted by Lamdage22 on October 10, 2014, at 11:27:18
Ask your pdoc, its true. Several Psychiatrists confirmed this to me.
Posted by oceansun on October 10, 2014, at 14:20:55
In reply to Re: SWITCH! -) Seroquel or Clozapine-)less likely TD., posted by Lamdage22 on October 10, 2014, at 11:28:44
Thanks! I had no idea! Do you know of any studies about this I could take to my pdoc? I'd be interested in trying Seroquel, but when I talked to her yesterday about my symptoms she wants me to stop Abilify right away.
I just don't know if I'm already experiencing pseudoparkinson's I should be taking any antipsychotic with any risk of TD at all...do you know of any studies about this too?
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 10, 2014, at 16:26:40
In reply to Re: SWITCH! -) Seroquel or Clozapine-)less likely TD. » Lamdage22, posted by oceansun on October 10, 2014, at 14:20:55
> Thanks! I had no idea! Do you know of any studies about this I could take to my pdoc? I'd be interested in trying Seroquel, but when I talked to her yesterday about my symptoms she wants me to stop Abilify right away.
> I just don't know if I'm already experiencing pseudoparkinson's I should be taking any antipsychotic with any risk of TD at all...do you know of any studies about this too?o_s,
You wrote,[..She said to stop Abilify right away...].
There is a deadly syndrome that could cause you to kill yourself when one stops this drug. Your prescriber could or could not be concerned about this.
If she is ignorant to this possibility, I would like for you to have her contact me here so that we could have dialog that I think could mark the difference between you being a live person or a corpse The dialog could also educate her so that she could have more information about this drug and how one can get out of the potential suicidal ideation that in withdrawal one could find themselves in and then could think twice about ever prescribing this drug to another human being again.
You see, this drug has chemicals that are used in insecticides and antibiotics and used to kill parasites in animals. The drug itself can cause death. If she accepts the opportunity to have dialog with me, I could share with her how one could escape death from this drug. She could also make a decision to question psychiatry by drugging people with drugs that are addictive and could cause a life-ruining condition or death by learning from me and help others to live.
Lou
Posted by Christ_empowered on October 10, 2014, at 20:18:41
In reply to Re: Does EPS put you at higher risk for TD? Worried!, posted by Lamdage22 on October 10, 2014, at 11:24:57
EPS does indicate a sensitivity that could raise the risk of TD. Also, people with mood disorders get TD more often than people with psychotic disorders. Why this is the case, I have no idea.
Abilify is weird. I take it, and its great for me (I also do Orthomolecular, which may reduce the TD risk). Seroquel probably has a lower TD risk.
Antipsychotics are divided by potency (more the old ones, but now the new ones, too). You have High potency, moderate potency, and low potency. High potency=less sedation, more EPS, and more TD. Like...Haldol vs Thorazine (Haldol is high potency, Thorazine low potency). Abilify is high potency (30mgs occupies something like 95% of D2 receptors), but its partial agonism reduces EPS...usually.
Seroquel is low potency. Its like 21st century Thorazine, basically. Unlike Thorazine, doses that are high enough to counter psychosis, agitation, mania, etc. can also stabilize mood and often has an antidepressant quality. Thorazine and many of the older drugs were notorious for inducing or worsening depression.
So...ummm...yeah. Probably too much info. I'd get off the Abilify and switch over to Seroquel/Seroquel XE. Seroquel rarely causes TD. Its used to suppress and sometimes help reverse TD caused by other antipsychotics, including some atypicals.
Good luck!
--Oh, and...high doses of B6 can help reverse drug induced EPS in some people, including stiff gait, tremor, akathisia, etc. Just thought I'd throw that little tid bit out there for you.
Posted by pontormo on October 11, 2014, at 1:15:30
In reply to Re: SWITCH! -) Seroquel or Clozapine-)less likely TD. » Lamdage22, posted by oceansun on October 10, 2014, at 14:20:55
If your pdoc wants you to stop abilify right away, I would absolutely do that. If you need help with tolerating any discontinuation symptoms, you can get in touch with her for other prescriptions.
Your muscle stiffness and other muscular effects sound disturbing and I would be very self-protective in stopping the drug that seems to be causing them.
Abilify is one of the newer anti-psychotics that's more prone to causing TD than others and symptoms such as your could be warning signs. If your pdoc thinks you should stop--the sooner you stop abilify, the better.
I hope your symptoms abate when you stop, although it can take some time--
Posted by Lamdage22 on October 11, 2014, at 6:35:30
In reply to Re: SWITCH! -) Seroquel or Clozapine-)less likely TD., posted by pontormo on October 11, 2014, at 1:15:30
If your doc wants to discontinue, i would absolutely do that.
So you are psychotic unless on APs?Your doctor should know about TD risk with certain drugs.
You shouldn't have to bring studies to your doc in my opinion. He/She should just know.
Cloozapine has other side effects and apparently TD is not one of them. Seroquel doesn't have these side effects but the TD risk is not zero, it is above zero unlike Clozapine.
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 11, 2014, at 9:36:24
In reply to Re: Does EPS put you at higher risk for TD? Worried!, posted by Christ_empowered on October 10, 2014, at 20:18:41
> EPS does indicate a sensitivity that could raise the risk of TD. Also, people with mood disorders get TD more often than people with psychotic disorders. Why this is the case, I have no idea.
>
> Abilify is weird. I take it, and its great for me (I also do Orthomolecular, which may reduce the TD risk). Seroquel probably has a lower TD risk.
>
> Antipsychotics are divided by potency (more the old ones, but now the new ones, too). You have High potency, moderate potency, and low potency. High potency=less sedation, more EPS, and more TD. Like...Haldol vs Thorazine (Haldol is high potency, Thorazine low potency). Abilify is high potency (30mgs occupies something like 95% of D2 receptors), but its partial agonism reduces EPS...usually.
>
> Seroquel is low potency. Its like 21st century Thorazine, basically. Unlike Thorazine, doses that are high enough to counter psychosis, agitation, mania, etc. can also stabilize mood and often has an antidepressant quality. Thorazine and many of the older drugs were notorious for inducing or worsening depression.
>
> So...ummm...yeah. Probably too much info. I'd get off the Abilify and switch over to Seroquel/Seroquel XE. Seroquel rarely causes TD. Its used to suppress and sometimes help reverse TD caused by other antipsychotics, including some atypicals.
>
> Good luck!
>
> --Oh, and...high doses of B6 can help reverse drug induced EPS in some people, including stiff gait, tremor, akathisia, etc. Just thought I'd throw that little tid bit out there for you.Friends,
I am requesting for those that want to post a response here to view the following video. To see this video:
A. Pull up Google
B. Type in exactly as shown including spelling June as Jun.
[ youtube, abilify,just say no, Jun 18, 2011 ]
could be first
Lou
Posted by oceansun on October 11, 2014, at 15:20:13
In reply to Re: SWITCH! -) Seroquel or Clozapine-)less likely TD., posted by Lamdage22 on October 11, 2014, at 6:35:30
Thanks everyone for your input :). It's really very helpful, I was blindsided by EPS. I'm not psychotic, just have a tendency to get extremely anxious and sort of paranoid. I started Abilify years and years ago on 2.5 mg for depression, then went up to 5 mg because 2.5 mg was making me too hyper, and eventually to 10 mg during a difficult period, and I found the higher the dose the better my anxiety and paranoia was.
Then I discontinued Abilify due to prediabetes and got even more anxious and paranoid than I had been (not suicidal, Lou, and no comments, Lou), so went back on it at 15 mg, which cured everything. I also take Lamictal and Wellbutrin, which help with depression and don't raise my anxiety except if I go higher on Wellbutrin.
I've tried everything for anxiety and only propranolol helps, but not enough. But upon reflection, maybe getting off antipsychotics altogether might be best. Seroquel and Clozapine weight gain scares me too.
I've suggested nefazodone to my pdoc, because I'm wondering if the 5HT2A thing might be a good replacement, since I don't know if it's that or dopamine blockage that's helping me with Abilify. I don't think she'll prescribe it, though. Does 5HT2A blockage carry any risk of TD? Is there a risk of shortage in availability of nefazadone?
If anyone knows of a med other than an antipsychotic for high anxiety and mild paranoia, please let me know! And sorry this post is so long!
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 11, 2014, at 16:14:03
In reply to Re: SWITCH! -) Seroquel or Clozapine-)less likely TD., posted by oceansun on October 11, 2014, at 15:20:13
> Thanks everyone for your input :). It's really very helpful, I was blindsided by EPS. I'm not psychotic, just have a tendency to get extremely anxious and sort of paranoid. I started Abilify years and years ago on 2.5 mg for depression, then went up to 5 mg because 2.5 mg was making me too hyper, and eventually to 10 mg during a difficult period, and I found the higher the dose the better my anxiety and paranoia was.
>
> Then I discontinued Abilify due to prediabetes and got even more anxious and paranoid than I had been (not suicidal, Lou, and no comments, Lou), so went back on it at 15 mg, which cured everything. I also take Lamictal and Wellbutrin, which help with depression and don't raise my anxiety except if I go higher on Wellbutrin.
>
> I've tried everything for anxiety and only propranolol helps, but not enough. But upon reflection, maybe getting off antipsychotics altogether might be best. Seroquel and Clozapine weight gain scares me too.
>
> I've suggested nefazodone to my pdoc, because I'm wondering if the 5HT2A thing might be a good replacement, since I don't know if it's that or dopamine blockage that's helping me with Abilify. I don't think she'll prescribe it, though. Does 5HT2A blockage carry any risk of TD? Is there a risk of shortage in availability of nefazadone?
>
> If anyone knows of a med other than an antipsychotic for high anxiety and mild paranoia, please let me know! And sorry this post is so long!o_s,
You wrote,[...Thanks everyone...take lamictal and wellbutrin...only propranolol helps...maybe getting off antipsychotics altogether might be best...nefazodone (to be suggested to my prescriber)...If anyone knows of a med for...let me know...]
First, I am glad to see that you are involved in your situation to question things and find a way out of your situation by asking if anyone knows. I do know of something that you can take each day to lead you out of paranoia and anxiety. Gone will be the dark clouds and cold winds and you could return to The Green Fields kissed by the sun. For you see, it has been revealed to me how one becomes lost and astray and can become victims of wolves. And they could be lost so that they find themselves in a troubled sea, tossed to and fro thinking how to be saved.
What I could tell you could lead you to The Still Waters and be comforted forever. There will be no more tears, no more sorrow and no more pain. Ashes will be turned to beauty and the spirit of heaviness will be turned to joy.
You are at a crossroad now. One road is a broad road that many there go on. And the other is a narrow road that few travel that leads to a way out of the darknessof anxiety and paranoia and depression into a marvelous light of peace and joy.
I tell you today, that if you do not believe that this can be done, then reject this opportunity now. But if you do believe that all these things are possible, then accept this opportunity to hear from me now what you can take each day to be led into a new life, free from anxiety, paranoia, depression and death.
Lou
Posted by Christ_empowered on October 11, 2014, at 17:40:15
In reply to Re: SWITCH! -) Seroquel or Clozapine-)less likely TD., posted by oceansun on October 11, 2014, at 15:20:13
Ummm...well...there are some drugs out there that are sort of antipsychotic-ish...
...Surmontil? Its an old school TCA. Soothing, sedating. Take it at night. Has some clozapine-ish effects, but isn't generally used in psychotic disorders, at least not alone. Its an antidepressant, but it doesn't work like other ADs.
Amoxapine. High doses can be used for psychotic depression. Can cause TD. The only real benefits I can think of are fast onset, low acquisition cost, and benefits for anxiety and depression w/ minimal agitation (because some of it is metabolized to loxapine, a milder old school antipsychotic).
I don't know where you live...tianeptine is an antidepressant that calms people down, doesn't work like other ADs, and has a benign side effect profile.
Something as simple as Buspar, added to an AD, can improve response w/o the side effects of an atypical. Doesn't work for a lot of people, and carries its own side effect burden (of course, lol), but...might be a viable option to an AP if it works for you.
Good luck!
Posted by SLS on October 11, 2014, at 17:55:45
In reply to Re: Does EPS put you at higher risk for TD? Worried!, posted by Christ_empowered on October 10, 2014, at 20:18:41
Nice post.
- Scott
> EPS does indicate a sensitivity that could raise the risk of TD. Also, people with mood disorders get TD more often than people with psychotic disorders. Why this is the case, I have no idea.
>
> Abilify is weird. I take it, and its great for me (I also do Orthomolecular, which may reduce the TD risk). Seroquel probably has a lower TD risk.
>
> Antipsychotics are divided by potency (more the old ones, but now the new ones, too). You have High potency, moderate potency, and low potency. High potency=less sedation, more EPS, and more TD. Like...Haldol vs Thorazine (Haldol is high potency, Thorazine low potency). Abilify is high potency (30mgs occupies something like 95% of D2 receptors), but its partial agonism reduces EPS...usually.
>
> Seroquel is low potency. Its like 21st century Thorazine, basically. Unlike Thorazine, doses that are high enough to counter psychosis, agitation, mania, etc. can also stabilize mood and often has an antidepressant quality. Thorazine and many of the older drugs were notorious for inducing or worsening depression.
>
> So...ummm...yeah. Probably too much info. I'd get off the Abilify and switch over to Seroquel/Seroquel XE. Seroquel rarely causes TD. Its used to suppress and sometimes help reverse TD caused by other antipsychotics, including some atypicals.
>
> Good luck!
>
> --Oh, and...high doses of B6 can help reverse drug induced EPS in some people, including stiff gait, tremor, akathisia, etc. Just thought I'd throw that little tid bit out there for you.
Posted by Lamdage22 on October 12, 2014, at 0:09:42
In reply to Re: Does EPS put you at higher risk for TD? Worried! » Christ_empowered, posted by SLS on October 11, 2014, at 17:55:45
Nefazodone sounds really good BUT it can destroy your liver and you can die from it.
It has been discontinued in Germany for that reason.
I wish they would try to make a similar medication without this side effect.
This is the end of the thread.
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