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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by gilmourr on January 14, 2013, at 23:20:03
In reply to Re: Anyone know people that have had ECT?, posted by johnLA on January 14, 2013, at 21:22:10
This was a perfect summary.
I as well feel the same way. Depression is destroying my brain and I think it does way more damage than ECT will. I am actually going to try MST (magnetic seizure therapy first) it's ECT but using magnets so the whole brain isnt affected. Should be way less side effects.
I've been throuhg 11-12 meds and I'm young (22) so I want to get a handle on this sh*t before it's too late.
I understand I'd be on meds after, I think Nardil is perfect if MST can get me at least 50% of the way there.
I think I'd be getting a premium service as I'm at the best psych hospital in Toronto.
There's nothing to be ashamed of. ECT is a service for an illness just like chemo is for cancer patients. Never feel ashamed of having that done. Some people will not understand. Make them understand or f*ck them.
I just want a good/effective procedure to get me in remission so I can enjoy life again. I've been mentally messed up for 23 months now, and I'm getting f*ck*ng burnt out.
> hi gilmour-
>
> i had 12 unilateral ect's over 2 years ago. the first few worked. was quite amazing actually. unfortunately the effects did not last.
>
> i do not believe i suffer from long-term damage. i did have some memory issues around the time of the treatments.
>
> my actual current depression is causing me more cognitive issues than the ect did. i can be sure of that. how? because i can still mentally do the things i did before ect. my depression though keeps me from doing those things consistently. if i had brain damage i'm thinking i would not be able to do these things even in my limited way now.
>
> if you go this route i highly suggest going to a top notch hospital. i did mine at ucla. i will not mention names, but i was surprised at the amount of well known people having the treatment. i believe all were on maintenance ect. these were/are highly functional people.
>
> i had ect done very early in my depressive episode. i was inpatient and really scared. i had never had suicidal thoughts before in my life. i still can't believe i had it done. looking back, for me, i think i could have tried more meds and stayed locked-up longer before ect was suggested. oh well.
>
> there is a part of me that regrets having it. mostly stigma and shame. still, i have been playing with the idea of trying it again! the doc wanted to do more, but i had had enough. mostly i think because i had to stop my klonopin abruptly. and, klonopin seems to be the only med i have tried to give me some relief these past 3 years.
>
> the procedure itself is scary the first time. i was crying quite a bit. but, the whole staff was quite kind at ucla. it became pretty routine after #2 or 3. no big deal. no real headache/etc. you are literally out for a few minutes and then waking-up. you do have a 'buzz' going on in your head. a good one. like i said, too bad it didn't last.
>
> finally, almost all ect patients will still be put on meds. i either was not told this or forgot. i was under the impression that it was ect or meds. rarely the case. even w/maintenance ect meds are usually involved. some say meds work better after ect.
>
> i can't tell you to have it or not. but, i can tell you that most of what you will read will be negative. hard decision when people are talking permanent brain damage and so on. again, i met people who have been doing ect for quite some time and were highly functional.
>
> let me know if you have any more questions.
>
> good luck to us all.
>
> john
>
>
>
>
Posted by gilmourr on January 14, 2013, at 23:22:35
In reply to Re: Anyone know people that have had ECT? » gilmourr, posted by Phillipa on January 14, 2013, at 11:58:57
> There are quite a few babblers who have received ECT. I'm sure they will respond soon. So does this mean no more parnate or are you researching. Phillipa
Thanks for the support. I think you're mixing me up with someone. I didn't try parnate recently. I tried it like 6 months ago and it was awful.
Currently I took a break from nardil because it was messing sh*t up for some reason and I'm on Zoloft 100 mg
Posted by johnLA on January 15, 2013, at 0:10:02
In reply to Re: Anyone know people that have had ECT?, posted by gilmourr on January 14, 2013, at 23:20:03
gilmour(r!)-
glad you liked the summary.
i totally agree that depression causes more havoc on the mind than ect. at least in my experience.
thanks for the kind words about shame and stigma. your a kind dude. :)
i am very interested in the magnetic seizure therapy you are looking into. is it a trial or a approved procedure now in canada? i'd be willing to try that asap. i have read about it, but have not seen it approved (in the us) yet.
please keep us posted on that.
also, i am very curious about the 'new' deep tms therapy that just got approved. i was not that impressed with what i read about the old tms, but this newer procedure i find hopeful.
take good care.
john
ps you ever hit 'new orleans' on queen street downtown toronto? that's where i mended a broken heart many years ago and fell in love w/jazz...
Posted by gilmourr on January 15, 2013, at 6:03:59
In reply to Re: Anyone know people that have had ECT?, posted by johnLA on January 15, 2013, at 0:10:02
No problem. I understand all the b*llsh*t people with major depression have to go through. It's an awful disorder. Every time I go back into major depression I can hardly stand music, I can't read (anything except journals), I'm lethargic, I don't enjoy anything and I can't sleep (along with more, lose massive weight etc etc, but you know).
It is a clinical trial I believe. But I'm making sure that it is relatively safe and that past results have shown that.
By "new tms" are you talking about rTMS or repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation? I was offered this, but I wouldn't be able to get it for 2 months and my depression is pretty severe atm. I'm not sure if I want to wait longer for a less effective therapy. But it is safer and increases cognitive function. Plus I believe it has an effect on the glutaminergic/gabergic system. But the results are much more mixed than MST.
And yep. I've been down to queen street a bunch of times, a bunch of my family loves going to "the rex." I've never been personally, just not the biggest fan of jazz :P (I like rap, hip hop, R&B, bands and electronica more).
If I get the treatment over rTMS I will definitely post the results.
> gilmour(r!)-
>
> glad you liked the summary.
>
> i totally agree that depression causes more havoc on the mind than ect. at least in my experience.
>
> thanks for the kind words about shame and stigma. your a kind dude. :)
>
> i am very interested in the magnetic seizure therapy you are looking into. is it a trial or a approved procedure now in canada? i'd be willing to try that asap. i have read about it, but have not seen it approved (in the us) yet.
>
> please keep us posted on that.
>
> also, i am very curious about the 'new' deep tms therapy that just got approved. i was not that impressed with what i read about the old tms, but this newer procedure i find hopeful.
>
> take good care.
>
> john
>
> ps you ever hit 'new orleans' on queen street downtown toronto? that's where i mended a broken heart many years ago and fell in love w/jazz...
Posted by AlexCanada on January 15, 2013, at 8:01:15
In reply to Re: Anyone know people that have had ECT?, posted by gilmourr on January 14, 2013, at 23:08:24
They hooked up things on both sides. Whether this indicates bilateral I am not sure. It was over 9 years ago. Please consider other options before attempting ECT.Most of those journals and studies are absolutely outdated. It took decades before we knew the dangerous of nicotine and apparantly it has taken decades for more reliable information to emerge regarding ECT. Last year there was a new study which strongly indicates irreversible brain damage.
i don't know if websites are allowed to be posted here but it's been reported on the HuffingtonPost
google ECT brain damage study, results will be from April 9th 2012.
It takes this long for further evidence to show up? Rediculous isn't it.
It was Hemmingway I believe whom killed himself after ECT. Claimed he could no longer write since he had lost his mind.
The symptoms of melancholic depression which you describe in another reply are absolutely identical to mine. May I ask which medications, suppliments, or herbals have worked best for you? Because I am also looking for options. I been on over few dozen meds and most have been ineffective.
For me Paxil worked moderately well for a while (other SSRI's were complete failures), Parnate was very helpful for almost 3 years until it lost much effect. Gabapentin seemed like a small miracle for almost a year but beyond that develops much tolerance. These days Gabapentin only helps for the first 2-3 days in which I take it and then I pretty much have to stop. Rapid tolerance onset. It may cause some small sedation but it helps restore interest and pleasure on a substantial manner. Risperidone helped in some moderate regard but I felt dumb.
Ritalin and Dexedrine were miraculous and helped me feel like my old self again. I felt my world coming back to me after feeling disconnected for so long. I could feel emotion, pleasure, desire, and interest in things which were felt long lost. I was suddenly even speaking to old friends again. But... it developed much tolerance over the years. I still take ritalin but I don't know what to do with it anymore. I have taken some breaks every so often and then upon start up it would bring forth a very positive response but it never does last. Long term use could also mean dopamine down regulation. Should I end up stopping it? I don't know.
Rhodiola Rosea also helped me integrate back towards something which could almost resemble work. It allowed me to be much more productive and motivated than most other substances I've tried. It works on day 1 but time of day when taken and dosage is tricky. small dose changes can have a very different effect, whether it's sedating, activating, etc.
>
> Did you have bilateral ECT though? I would only get unilateral, but I'm actually looking at magnetic seizure therapy which has WAY less reported side effects.
>
> I don't understand how so many people apparently have long term memory issues because the journals and all studies seem to show that memory is not affected in the long term. Could it be that you weren't helped (remission of depression) and it's affecting you cognitive function? Because when I'm majorly depressed I feel brain dead.
>
> Living with depression will eat away at my mind as well.
Posted by AlexCanada on January 15, 2013, at 8:17:29
In reply to Re: Anyone know people that have had ECT?, posted by gilmourr on January 14, 2013, at 23:13:13
> I wouldn't do bilateral, only unilateral or magnetic seizure therapy.
>
> After 12 meds and different combos I'm tired of trying meds. I'm 22 and I want my life back. Not willing to play with meds for the next 10 years if an option can save my life
>
>Of those 12 which have worked best? I'm at a bit of a dead end as well. I'd have more options if Canada allowed importation but new strict laws have been put in place so some really promising options such as Amisulpride, Latuda and others are not realistic unfortunately.
Posted by Hugh on January 15, 2013, at 10:43:23
In reply to Re: Anyone know people that have had ECT?, posted by gilmourr on January 14, 2013, at 23:10:43
> Did you friend have a 70%+ of his depression remit? And did it help with comorbid symptoms?
He's certainly not depression free on ECT. Probably not even 70%. And he still takes antidepressants. But before ECT he was severely depressed, and had attempted suicide at least twice.
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on January 15, 2013, at 17:17:29
In reply to Re: Anyone know people that have had ECT? » gilmourr, posted by Hugh on January 15, 2013, at 10:43:23
Hi mate
before you consider undergoing ECT, would you consider posting a list of which drugs you've tried, and what effect each had on your symptoms
A few of us (especialy Mr SLS) might have some ideas that could help without going through ECT, which while it can be life saving in severe melancholic depression, could hardly be described as a fun experience
Posted by Hugh on January 15, 2013, at 17:57:04
In reply to Re: Anyone know people that have had ECT?, posted by gilmourr on January 15, 2013, at 6:03:59
> By "new tms" are you talking about rTMS or repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation?
Last week the FDA approved Deep TMS for depression. It's been available in Europe for three years. rTMS normally penetrates only about 1.5 cm into the brain. The newer Deep TMS, manufactured by Brainsway, penetrates 6 or 7 cm. It looks like it was just approved in Canada today.
http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000814731&fid=1725
Posted by baseball55 on January 15, 2013, at 19:01:36
In reply to Re: Anyone know people that have had ECT?, posted by gilmourr on January 14, 2013, at 23:13:13
> After 12 meds and different combos I'm tired of trying meds. I'm 22 and I want my life back. Not willing to play with meds for the next 10 years if an option can save my life
Fair enough. Unilateral wasn't nearly so bad as bilateral, which was so devastating I had to do it in the hospital because it took me a full day or two to recover. Unilateral you can do as an outpatient if you have friends who can drive you and wait for you.
Posted by baseball55 on January 15, 2013, at 19:09:26
In reply to Re: Anyone know people that have had ECT?, posted by baseball55 on January 15, 2013, at 19:01:36
Before I did ECT, I read a meta-study from a medical journal about its effects. The study did find cognitive effects in many patients but rarely permanent. It also found that the benefits were nowhere near as high as some claims made (3/4 patients achieve remission, etc). I used to have it on my computer until I got a virus and lost my files. I can't remember the author's name. I'll check my flash drives tomorrow and see if I saved it somewhere.
Posted by Zyprexa on January 15, 2013, at 22:22:49
In reply to Re: Anyone know people that have had ECT?, posted by baseball55 on January 15, 2013, at 19:09:26
I have nothing good to say about ECT, except that it got me to take my meds.
If anything I think it made me stupider. In one year I had about the max # of ECTs posible. About 3 a week for many weeks on two occasions. When I first got sick, I would not take my meds, I thought I didn't need them and that I was fine. But my psychosis got the better of me and they put me in the hospital where they gave me ECTs each time. My first hospital stay I can't remember much of, except for a lot of realy crazy dreams. They had me on meds and ect. I was not suicidal (from what I can remember)before ECT or after. Not realy sure what it did for my depression, because I don't remember. 15 years later and I don't have my memory back, and I think I may be a little brain damaged from it. The memory loss is great. I've had people tell me I did things which I have no memory of. Also when I was getting the ECTs I had a very active/distorted dream life. I honestly can't say much for ECT except that it made me stupid.
Posted by baseball55 on January 15, 2013, at 23:35:44
In reply to Re: Anyone know people that have had ECT?, posted by baseball55 on January 15, 2013, at 19:09:26
Can't find the article, but I think the author's name was Sackheim.
Posted by gilmourr on January 16, 2013, at 0:17:39
In reply to Re: Gillmore, posted by jono_in_adelaide on January 15, 2013, at 17:17:29
> Hi mate
>
> before you consider undergoing ECT, would you consider posting a list of which drugs you've tried, and what effect each had on your symptoms
>
> A few of us (especialy Mr SLS) might have some ideas that could help without going through ECT, which while it can be life saving in severe melancholic depression, could hardly be described as a fun experienceMore than glad to.
Paxil - nothing @ 30 mg, 8 weeks
Prozac - Side effect sh*t storm, vomiting, no go here
Cipralex - 40% reduction in depression @ 20 mg, LOADS of insomnia, slept like 1 hour every 2 days. (8 weeks)
Zoloft - No side effects or just mild GI symptoms, seemed to work on depression and anxiety as well as cipralex (best SSRI)
(8-9 weeks)Nardil - F*ck*ng godly. This was almost remission, but I went to 60 mg and had bad mood swings so I came off it. When I went on 45 mg after 14 days being off it, it didn't work as well and I had more side effects. So this MAY be an option, I just think I need a break from it. (Also it gave me shivers and cold intolerance, if there's a way to get rid of this side effect it'd be PERFECT). (10-12 weeks)
Remeron - Slept 14-16 hours a day, great AD, nothing for anxiety, massive acne out breaks. Overall its good but I felt like a retard on this as I couldn't think. 8 weeks at 7.5 mg (I know, 7.5 mg...)
Effexor XR - High BP 165/125 and rising, stabbing chest pains, quit after 13 days. The chest pain was really bad. 75 mg
Celexa - Awful sexual dysfunction, even worse insomnia than cipralex. I wanted to go to sleep so badly but just couldn't. 20-30 mgParnate - Had a great AD response at 30 mg for 2 days, then it crashed. Then was hypothermic for 18 days straight. Freezing my *ss of so badly.
Lamictal - It was looking promising, but I had breathing issues on it, I could hardly breathe. It was 24/7 and did not seem tied to anxiety.
I want to go back on Nardil because it's godly, I just am waiting 2 months to see if the effect comes back. But I think it's too much norepinephrine. Though TWICE at 45 mg I had only constipation and it was working well. For some reason the 3rd time I tried Nardil it gave me all my side effects of 60 mg (even though I was on 45 mg) which I was like wtf. So I'd probably start at 30 mg this time and see if that's enough. I've never tried 30 mg.
Posted by gilmourr on January 16, 2013, at 0:20:26
In reply to Re: Anyone know people that have had ECT? » gilmourr, posted by Hugh on January 15, 2013, at 17:57:04
> > By "new tms" are you talking about rTMS or repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation?
>
> Last week the FDA approved Deep TMS for depression. It's been available in Europe for three years. rTMS normally penetrates only about 1.5 cm into the brain. The newer Deep TMS, manufactured by Brainsway, penetrates 6 or 7 cm. It looks like it was just approved in Canada today.
>
> http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000814731&fid=1725Interesting. But I'm guessing the technology/equipment wouldn't be ready for months or even a year. I just don't have that time atm because I'm so frikken depressed.
It's basically either rTMS, magnetic seizure therapy or unilateral ECT. Or more drugs. But the only drug I want is nardil + something to augment its sh*tty cold intolerance! Why will no doctor work with me on this, F*CK
Posted by gilmourr on January 16, 2013, at 0:37:00
In reply to Re: Anyone know people that have had ECT?, posted by Zyprexa on January 15, 2013, at 22:22:49
> I have nothing good to say about ECT, except that it got me to take my meds.
>
> If anything I think it made me stupider. In one year I had about the max # of ECTs posible. About 3 a week for many weeks on two occasions. When I first got sick, I would not take my meds, I thought I didn't need them and that I was fine. But my psychosis got the better of me and they put me in the hospital where they gave me ECTs each time. My first hospital stay I can't remember much of, except for a lot of realy crazy dreams. They had me on meds and ect. I was not suicidal (from what I can remember)before ECT or after. Not realy sure what it did for my depression, because I don't remember. 15 years later and I don't have my memory back, and I think I may be a little brain damaged from it. The memory loss is great. I've had people tell me I did things which I have no memory of. Also when I was getting the ECTs I had a very active/distorted dream life. I honestly can't say much for ECT except that it made me stupid.Couldn't it be that the depression caused you to become slower mentally? I feel dramatically slower when I'm majorly depressed.
Posted by AlexCanada on January 16, 2013, at 7:02:53
In reply to Re: Gillmore, posted by gilmourr on January 16, 2013, at 0:17:39
> > Hi mate
> >
> > before you consider undergoing ECT, would you consider posting a list of which drugs you've tried, and what effect each had on your symptoms
> >
> > A few of us (especialy Mr SLS) might have some ideas that could help without going through ECT, which while it can be life saving in severe melancholic depression, could hardly be described as a fun experience
>
> More than glad to.
>
> Paxil - nothing @ 30 mg, 8 weeks
>
> Prozac - Side effect sh*t storm, vomiting, no go here
>
> Cipralex - 40% reduction in depression @ 20 mg, LOADS of insomnia, slept like 1 hour every 2 days. (8 weeks)
>
> Zoloft - No side effects or just mild GI symptoms, seemed to work on depression and anxiety as well as cipralex (best SSRI)
> (8-9 weeks)
>
> Nardil - F*ck*ng godly. This was almost remission, but I went to 60 mg and had bad mood swings so I came off it. When I went on 45 mg after 14 days being off it, it didn't work as well and I had more side effects. So this MAY be an option, I just think I need a break from it. (Also it gave me shivers and cold intolerance, if there's a way to get rid of this side effect it'd be PERFECT). (10-12 weeks)
>
> Remeron - Slept 14-16 hours a day, great AD, nothing for anxiety, massive acne out breaks. Overall its good but I felt like a retard on this as I couldn't think. 8 weeks at 7.5 mg (I know, 7.5 mg...)
>
> Effexor XR - High BP 165/125 and rising, stabbing chest pains, quit after 13 days. The chest pain was really bad. 75 mg
>
> Celexa - Awful sexual dysfunction, even worse insomnia than cipralex. I wanted to go to sleep so badly but just couldn't. 20-30 mg
>
> Parnate - Had a great AD response at 30 mg for 2 days, then it crashed. Then was hypothermic for 18 days straight. Freezing my *ss of so badly.
>
> Lamictal - It was looking promising, but I had breathing issues on it, I could hardly breathe. It was 24/7 and did not seem tied to anxiety.
>
>
> I want to go back on Nardil because it's godly, I just am waiting 2 months to see if the effect comes back. But I think it's too much norepinephrine. Though TWICE at 45 mg I had only constipation and it was working well. For some reason the 3rd time I tried Nardil it gave me all my side effects of 60 mg (even though I was on 45 mg) which I was like wtf. So I'd probably start at 30 mg this time and see if that's enough. I've never tried 30 mg.
>
>
>
>
>Have you tried lower doses of some of these meds? Nardil and Parnate in particular. Parnate was wonderful for me below 30mg regardless of what the 'studies' show. Going up to 30mg was pretty lousy.
Nardil is a miracle for many. You may want to strongly consider giving a particular dose more than a few weeks otherwise you may be dealing with withdrawal or other such issues from the previous dose. And you may want to start lower than moderate and high doses when it comes to meds in general.
With strong side effects it may be possible that you may have some med sensitivity. For some people low doses work wonders because even 20mg of Parnate is capable of having profound incredible effects in certain individuals. I was one such case.
Starting modest and increasing the dose if needed is better in most regards than starting off at a high dose.
Nardil 45-60mg could be terrible for someone while 30mg could be the magic number. it's better to try such options first before donating your brain to science. Old studies from the stone age don't tell the whole story of ECT.
Posted by gilmourr on January 16, 2013, at 12:08:00
In reply to Re: Gillmore » gilmourr, posted by AlexCanada on January 16, 2013, at 7:02:53
> > > Hi mate
> > >
> > > before you consider undergoing ECT, would you consider posting a list of which drugs you've tried, and what effect each had on your symptoms
> > >
> > > A few of us (especialy Mr SLS) might have some ideas that could help without going through ECT, which while it can be life saving in severe melancholic depression, could hardly be described as a fun experience
> >
> > More than glad to.
> >
> > Paxil - nothing @ 30 mg, 8 weeks
> >
> > Prozac - Side effect sh*t storm, vomiting, no go here
> >
> > Cipralex - 40% reduction in depression @ 20 mg, LOADS of insomnia, slept like 1 hour every 2 days. (8 weeks)
> >
> > Zoloft - No side effects or just mild GI symptoms, seemed to work on depression and anxiety as well as cipralex (best SSRI)
> > (8-9 weeks)
> >
> > Nardil - F*ck*ng godly. This was almost remission, but I went to 60 mg and had bad mood swings so I came off it. When I went on 45 mg after 14 days being off it, it didn't work as well and I had more side effects. So this MAY be an option, I just think I need a break from it. (Also it gave me shivers and cold intolerance, if there's a way to get rid of this side effect it'd be PERFECT). (10-12 weeks)
> >
> > Remeron - Slept 14-16 hours a day, great AD, nothing for anxiety, massive acne out breaks. Overall its good but I felt like a retard on this as I couldn't think. 8 weeks at 7.5 mg (I know, 7.5 mg...)
> >
> > Effexor XR - High BP 165/125 and rising, stabbing chest pains, quit after 13 days. The chest pain was really bad. 75 mg
> >
> > Celexa - Awful sexual dysfunction, even worse insomnia than cipralex. I wanted to go to sleep so badly but just couldn't. 20-30 mg
> >
> > Parnate - Had a great AD response at 30 mg for 2 days, then it crashed. Then was hypothermic for 18 days straight. Freezing my *ss of so badly.
> >
> > Lamictal - It was looking promising, but I had breathing issues on it, I could hardly breathe. It was 24/7 and did not seem tied to anxiety.
> >
> >
> > I want to go back on Nardil because it's godly, I just am waiting 2 months to see if the effect comes back. But I think it's too much norepinephrine. Though TWICE at 45 mg I had only constipation and it was working well. For some reason the 3rd time I tried Nardil it gave me all my side effects of 60 mg (even though I was on 45 mg) which I was like wtf. So I'd probably start at 30 mg this time and see if that's enough. I've never tried 30 mg.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Have you tried lower doses of some of these meds? Nardil and Parnate in particular. Parnate was wonderful for me below 30mg regardless of what the 'studies' show. Going up to 30mg was pretty lousy.
>
> Nardil is a miracle for many. You may want to strongly consider giving a particular dose more than a few weeks otherwise you may be dealing with withdrawal or other such issues from the previous dose. And you may want to start lower than moderate and high doses when it comes to meds in general.
>
> With strong side effects it may be possible that you may have some med sensitivity. For some people low doses work wonders because even 20mg of Parnate is capable of having profound incredible effects in certain individuals. I was one such case.
>
> Starting modest and increasing the dose if needed is better in most regards than starting off at a high dose.
>
> Nardil 45-60mg could be terrible for someone while 30mg could be the magic number. it's better to try such options first before donating your brain to science. Old studies from the stone age don't tell the whole story of ECT.Have not tried a lower dose of Parnate. Maybe I'll give that a shot one time down the road.
And for Nardil since my 1st trial I know to give each dose 6-8 weeks because like you said, it is really about finding that magic number.
Nardil may work again. I'm going to try magnetic seizure therapy, it's basically magnets used to induce a seizure and there seems to be very very minimal cognitive damage, if any. I'm looking through all the info I can find, but check it out and tell me if you agree.
I was thinking.. do MST and then add Nardil @ 15-30 mg.
Basically I will have been off Nardil for 2 months, so the resistance should be gone. Hopefully.BTW, what is your opinion of neurontin?
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on January 16, 2013, at 19:44:56
In reply to Re: Gillmore, posted by gilmourr on January 16, 2013, at 0:17:39
Sounds like Zoloft was quite kind to you, would you consider taking Zoloft along with either Nortriptyline or Welbutrin to optimise response?
I think it would be well worth a trial before submitting to ECT
Nortriptyline can also help anxirty (via 2HT2A receptors), Welbutrin can help with drive.
Posted by johnLA on January 16, 2013, at 21:46:12
In reply to Re: Gillmore, posted by gilmourr on January 16, 2013, at 12:08:00
g-
if you do the magnetic seizure therapy could you please keep us posted? i am very interested in this procedure. i have not seen it used, to my knowledge, out here in california yet.
good luck in whatever route you decide to take. i really hope you find some peace.
john
Posted by gilmourr on January 17, 2013, at 0:56:17
In reply to Re: Gillmore, posted by jono_in_adelaide on January 16, 2013, at 19:44:56
> Sounds like Zoloft was quite kind to you, would you consider taking Zoloft along with either Nortriptyline or Welbutrin to optimise response?
>
> I think it would be well worth a trial before submitting to ECT
>
> Nortriptyline can also help anxirty (via 2HT2A receptors), Welbutrin can help with drive.Yeah I would be open to nortryptiline, I actually already have the pills, I just never used them. I was going to augment it with Nardil but then realized I was getting too much norepinephrine already from Nardil.
The only thing is I'm booked for either rTMS or magnetic seizure therapy in < 30 days. I could go rTMS since it's not invasive but it's less effective... MST has been shown to not create that many cognitive side effects, but it still kinda scares me slightly. But the rates of remission/response are much better.
Basically I'm on Zoloft right now and have to keep my meds the same since I'm either getting rTMS or MST.
I was thinking of doing MST and then adding Nardil and hopefully that does it.
So I can't really add nortryptiline atm... unless I cancel the treatment. I'm in a predicament, but I think MST is the right option. The studies show barely any side effects and drugs haven't been that kind to me other than Nardil and Zoloft.
Even though I've only been through 12 (its a decent amount) I'm just so tired of the drug run around. I could be making a mistake but it's just... I've given drugs about 22 months to get me back in the game. And they have yet to get me in recovery.
Posted by gilmourr on January 17, 2013, at 1:03:58
In reply to Re: Gillmore, posted by johnLA on January 16, 2013, at 21:46:12
> g-
>
> if you do the magnetic seizure therapy could you please keep us posted? i am very interested in this procedure. i have not seen it used, to my knowledge, out here in california yet.
>
> good luck in whatever route you decide to take. i really hope you find some peace.
>
> johnYeah I'll definitely post how it goes.
This is the info I have on it atm.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12865903
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23080404
The only anecdotal thing that scares me is this..
One commentor said he haid pain issues after the procedure. But I'm not sure whether I trust the comment section, also, if I felt something like neuropathy I'd stop the treatments. I'm pretty good with telling when something feels really wrong.
Posted by ChicagoKat on January 18, 2013, at 16:26:08
In reply to Anyone know people that have had ECT?, posted by gilmourr on January 14, 2013, at 10:35:24
> I'm looking into unilateral ECT. Has anyone had it done, or heard of others that used it?
>
> Can it provide permanent relief or is it 100% always temporary?
>
> So sick and tired of the pill game.Gilmourr, I so wish I could go back and do my research as you are doing before having ect. ect gave me memory problems, sure, they tell you about that. But they don't tell you it has negative cognitive effects, that it causes actual physical brain damage, that it usually does not work well, and when it does the effect only lasts for a month or so.
If I'd known these things I never would have done it. And in my case, it not only did not help, it made my depression and anxiety much, much worse.
Kat
Posted by gilmourr on January 18, 2013, at 16:42:52
In reply to Re: Anyone know people that have had ECT? » gilmourr, posted by ChicagoKat on January 18, 2013, at 16:26:08
> > I'm looking into unilateral ECT. Has anyone had it done, or heard of others that used it?
> >
> > Can it provide permanent relief or is it 100% always temporary?
> >
> > So sick and tired of the pill game.
>
> Gilmourr, I so wish I could go back and do my research as you are doing before having ect. ect gave me memory problems, sure, they tell you about that. But they don't tell you it has negative cognitive effects, that it causes actual physical brain damage, that it usually does not work well, and when it does the effect only lasts for a month or so.
>
> If I'd known these things I never would have done it. And in my case, it not only did not help, it made my depression and anxiety much, much worse.
> Kat
>
>The only thing that concerns me about this is that maybe because it didn't work, your depression is clouding your memory and cognitive functioning. Like I feel completely slower atm than when I was on Nardil or stable on Zoloft after weeks of being on it. I just don't know that ECT is to blame for your cognitive dysfunction.
Also quite a few journals have provided evidence that there is no brain damage involved in ECT.
Plus the remission rates are around 70%+ so it's quite possible that you were just really really unlucky. Isn't everyone technically who belongs to this forum?
Posted by ChicagoKat on January 21, 2013, at 8:03:56
In reply to Re: Anyone know people that have had ECT?, posted by gilmourr on January 18, 2013, at 16:42:52
> > > I'm looking into unilateral ECT. Has anyone had it done, or heard of others that used it?
> > >
> > > Can it provide permanent relief or is it 100% always temporary?
> > >
> > > So sick and tired of the pill game.
> >
> > Gilmourr, I so wish I could go back and do my research as you are doing before having ect. ect gave me memory problems, sure, they tell you about that. But they don't tell you it has negative cognitive effects, that it causes actual physical brain damage, that it usually does not work well, and when it does the effect only lasts for a month or so.
> >
> > If I'd known these things I never would have done it. And in my case, it not only did not help, it made my depression and anxiety much, much worse.
> > Kat
> >
> >
>
> The only thing that concerns me about this is that maybe because it didn't work, your depression is clouding your memory and cognitive functioning. Like I feel completely slower atm than when I was on Nardil or stable on Zoloft after weeks of being on it. I just don't know that ECT is to blame for your cognitive dysfunction.
>
> Also quite a few journals have provided evidence that there is no brain damage involved in ECT.
>
> Plus the remission rates are around 70%+ so it's quite possible that you were just really really unlucky. Isn't everyone technically who belongs to this forum?
>
>
Gilmourr, you may be right, at least partially, that my depression is clouding my memory and congnitive functioning. But when I replied to your post I was simply summing up data I had dug up from reputable, peer-reviewed journals. I was shocked to read in one such journal that IQ rates go down an average of 40-60pts. Scary! Hopefully that info comes from a not-so-reputable journal. How I wish I had saved the links to all the studies I mention. You are right; my depression does affect my concentration, so hopefully that result at least was quite off! I must say, however, that I found the ECT - decrease in cognitive ability connection in many, many journal articles. And this was all a year and a half after I had experienced ECT, and when I was much more stable emotionally,having found an excellent pdoc and being put on Ritalin. As far as the brain damage, I did find an article, again in a peer-reviewed journal of a study (double-blind, placebo controlled) done with rats which quite obviously showed that in the rats who received ECT there were pinpoint hemorrhages in their brains; the distribution really depended on exactly where the electrodes had been placed; and that the rats who had not undergone ECT had perfectly normal brains, grossly at any rate. I found this to be frightening; it made me think of all the people who have had ECT and continue to get maintenance therapy. How many ECT treatments would it take to cause not just a pinpoint hemorrhage, but a larger, much more significant hemorrhage?
Lastly, all I can say, now that it has been almost 2 years since I had ECT, I wish like you would not believe that I had never had it done. I'll be honest: the effects on cognition that I mentioned reading about I have not much noticed in myself. But I DO know that ECT not only did not help, it made my depression and anxiety much worse, and for some reason after ECT my meds no longer worked. It DID have one positive effect on me however, and this is really weird, but after ECT I discovered I had a revulstion for alcohol. I don't even want a glass of wine with dinner. Even the smell of alcohol makes my stomach upset. Which is definitely all a positive thing b/c I used to binge drink, once a week - it was one of my crutches. But no more, now I have a Babble crutch - and my liver is very happy about that!!!! :) And, now that I've written a book, to answer your original question: I have never, ever heard of ECT being anything but temporary. It is my understanding that those who do obtain relief generally have to have monthly maintenance treatments. Good luck Gilmourr :)
Kat
p.s. One last tidbit: I have a feeling that a lot of those high efficacy rates are somewhat suspect; absolutely every single person I've ever talked to, either here, or when I've been inpt in a hospital (3 admits) has said that it did nothing for them, or worse, like me, that it made their condition worse. Of course these are not scientific results, but they are interesting.
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