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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by AlexCanada on September 4, 2012, at 20:40:33
I would like to know how Magnesium, Gingko Biloba, Resveratrol, Korean Ginseng and Rhodiola may be causing possible undesired effects. And what may be the the more beneficial combinations?
I am currently on ritalin, valium and Rhodiola Rosea 300-600mg + 120-240mg gingko, + Resveratrol 400mg-600mg + Magnesium Glycinate 100mg daily as I withdrawal from parnate and will soon be starting zoloft for melancholic depression which I've had for 10 years caused by Accutane poisoning.
Magnesium Glycinate 100mg most days but considering stopping all together since half the time it appears to cause anxiety! Why might this happen? Other times it appeared to help w/ depression symptoms. I've read it may enhance ritalin effect. Thus the increase in anxiety?
Resveratrol may or may not be helping me either. It is hard to say. Gingko helps a bit w energy and some libido not sure if helps in other regards. Sometimes feels it paradoxally makes me tired.
Resveratrol is an anti-oxidant. Could it be causing my ritalin and valium to have less effect?
Also Korean Ginseng initially used to give me some energy and was a potent libido booster but I often find if I take it these days it may cause some tiredness. While on parnate it especially caused some sedation after initial few days of very energizing effects.
I don't know which suppliments may be causing more harm than good.
Also how may Vitamin D3 factor into all of this?
I keep going through my journals and try to connect the dots but it's especially difficult with my cognitive and memory issues.
Lou Pilder please don't respond to my topic. Your illusions of knowledge are of no interest to me. Spare me your harrasment.
Posted by schleprock on September 4, 2012, at 22:38:19
In reply to Supplements not mixing well with medication?, posted by AlexCanada on September 4, 2012, at 20:40:33
> I would like to know how Magnesium, Gingko Biloba, Resveratrol, Korean Ginseng and Rhodiola may be causing possible undesired effects. And what may be the the more beneficial combinations?
>
> I am currently on ritalin, valium and Rhodiola Rosea 300-600mg + 120-240mg gingko, + Resveratrol 400mg-600mg + Magnesium Glycinate 100mg daily as I withdrawal from parnate and will soon be starting zoloft for melancholic depression which I've had for 10 years caused by Accutane poisoning.
>
> Magnesium Glycinate 100mg most days but considering stopping all together since half the time it appears to cause anxiety! Why might this happen? Other times it appeared to help w/ depression symptoms. I've read it may enhance ritalin effect. Thus the increase in anxiety?
>
> Resveratrol may or may not be helping me either. It is hard to say. Gingko helps a bit w energy and some libido not sure if helps in other regards. Sometimes feels it paradoxally makes me tired.
>
> Resveratrol is an anti-oxidant. Could it be causing my ritalin and valium to have less effect?
>
> Also Korean Ginseng initially used to give me some energy and was a potent libido booster but I often find if I take it these days it may cause some tiredness. While on parnate it especially caused some sedation after initial few days of very energizing effects.
>
> I don't know which suppliments may be causing more harm than good.
>
> Also how may Vitamin D3 factor into all of this?
>
> I keep going through my journals and try to connect the dots but it's especially difficult with my cognitive and memory issues.
>
> Lou Pilder please don't respond to my topic. Your illusions of knowledge are of no interest to me. Spare me your harrasment.
>
>
>This is exactly why I'm afraid of supplements.
Posted by Exister on September 5, 2012, at 13:20:02
In reply to Supplements not mixing well with medication?, posted by AlexCanada on September 4, 2012, at 20:40:33
I'm not too bothered about mega dosing vits & mins, but when it comes to herbs I take high caution. Herbs need to be detoxified too and can inhibit or speed up certain enzym systems resulting in uncontrolled and unknown levels of medications.
Ex
Posted by Christ_empowered on September 5, 2012, at 18:24:48
In reply to Re: Supplements not mixing well with medication? » AlexCanada, posted by Exister on September 5, 2012, at 13:20:02
I'm not big on herbs. I take Abilify now. I've been able to stay on 1-2 meds (always w/ Abilify as the "core" medication), sometimes plus a low dose of Vistaril for sleep, thanks to Orthomolecular Medicine.
I don't want to push my favorite complementary/alternative system on you, but I will say that it's designed to work *with* meds and/or ECT. Always has been, since the 50s, when Orthomolecular started. And it can help people with problems much more severe than yours (I use it for "Bipolar I w/Psychotic Features).
My concern is, like another poster wrote, that some herbs, in high enough doses, are basically drugs. High dose vitamins are, too, but your body is designed to deal with them, particularly if they're water-soluble (most vitamins used in Orthomolecular are) and they're being used to, at the very least, reduce side effects. For instance: I'm very neuroleptic sensitive. The OM protocol has reduced my EPS to 0 and significantly cut the apathy and dulled out feeling I get from any antipsychotic.
Again...I'm not pushing this on you. I'm just surprised that so many people are encouraged to try this herb and that herb while neglecting OM, which has a good safety track record and a fairly good track record in getting at least some positive results for mental and overall health.
I can't tell you if your herbs are causing problems, though. An upper, a downer, some vitamins, some potentially powerful herbs...even with only 2 fairly common pharmaceuticals on board, I think you have a lot going on.
Posted by AlexCanada on September 7, 2012, at 4:30:36
In reply to Re: Supplements not mixing well with medication?, posted by Christ_empowered on September 5, 2012, at 18:24:48
Orthomolecular is not something i've ever heard of before. My issues were brought upon by accutane poisoning (megadose of vitamin A) by an irresponsible doctor over 10 years ago. I exhibit full blown strong melancholic depression symptoms and often I cannot even bring myself to write or reply on this forum.
Certain vitamins/supplements may not effect me well. Something in eggs, bananas, milk, cereals usually gives me burning headaches and worsens my mood. vitamin A is one such negative for me. Magnesium mught be as well (glyinate form at least).
Do you feel it may still be reasonable for me to try? I can't concentrate much right now so i'll just end my post there. need to get to bed.
> I'm not big on herbs. I take Abilify now. I've been able to stay on 1-2 meds (always w/ Abilify as the "core" medication), sometimes plus a low dose of Vistaril for sleep, thanks to Orthomolecular Medicine.
>
> I don't want to push my favorite complementary/alternative system on you, but I will say that it's designed to work *with* meds and/or ECT. Always has been, since the 50s, when Orthomolecular started. And it can help people with problems much more severe than yours (I use it for "Bipolar I w/Psychotic Features).
>
> My concern is, like another poster wrote, that some herbs, in high enough doses, are basically drugs. High dose vitamins are, too, but your body is designed to deal with them, particularly if they're water-soluble (most vitamins used in Orthomolecular are) and they're being used to, at the very least, reduce side effects. For instance: I'm very neuroleptic sensitive. The OM protocol has reduced my EPS to 0 and significantly cut the apathy and dulled out feeling I get from any antipsychotic.
>
> Again...I'm not pushing this on you. I'm just surprised that so many people are encouraged to try this herb and that herb while neglecting OM, which has a good safety track record and a fairly good track record in getting at least some positive results for mental and overall health.
>
> I can't tell you if your herbs are causing problems, though. An upper, a downer, some vitamins, some potentially powerful herbs...even with only 2 fairly common pharmaceuticals on board, I think you have a lot going on.
>
>
Posted by Christ_empowered on September 7, 2012, at 6:58:34
In reply to Re: Supplements not mixing well with medication?, posted by AlexCanada on September 7, 2012, at 4:30:36
If you're into alternative/complementary health, I'd give it a whirl. Been around since the 50s, very good for you, quite easy to set up.
www.doctoryouself.com
Basic intro, that site. If you're interested, keep posting, and I'll do what I can to guide you along. keep in mind, I'm NOT an MD; I just found that OM helped me significantly. Call me an "enthusiast," I guess.
Posted by Laney on September 8, 2012, at 10:38:22
In reply to Re: Supplements not mixing well with medication?, posted by Christ_empowered on September 7, 2012, at 6:58:34
Christ Empowered,
I'm interested in learning more about OM. I've read up on it before but didn't learn enough about it to put it to use.
What is your supplement protocol? I know we are all different but the fact that you can take abilify and by using OM not feel flat and apathetic. I took abilify and that's exactly how I felt so I got rid of it.
Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing more about it. I did send you babblemail as well.
Thanks,
Laney
Posted by Chris O on September 8, 2012, at 11:51:26
In reply to Supplements not mixing well with medication?, posted by AlexCanada on September 4, 2012, at 20:40:33
Alex:
It certainly seems like some of those supplements could enhance the pro-anxiety effect of something like ritalin; specifically, the ginseng and rhodiola. However, the magnesium is puzzling, especially at such a low dose. When I took magnesium, in order to get any effect, I used powder and took several grams at a time. The only effect I noticed at high doses, other than reduced anxiety, was diarrhea. Rhodiola and ginseng have never done much for me, even when I gave them month-long trials. As for D3, I just raised my vitamin D levels from 20 to 63 by taking D3. At first, I thought it might be affecting my energy level or mood. But now I think it was just placebo.
You mention accutane poisoning. I took accutane in 1984 when it first came out. I have never even considered it could be a cause of my condition. Interesting that you mention it as a cause of your depression. Sorry to hear that. Makes me think about reinvestigating that whole time in my life. But I also know that my anxiety/depression go way deeper than that, as I was raised by a seriously mentally ill mother, and there are multiple addictions and suicides in my family.
Good luck,
Chris
Posted by bleauberry on September 8, 2012, at 16:47:16
In reply to Supplements not mixing well with medication?, posted by AlexCanada on September 4, 2012, at 20:40:33
I am fairly familiar with all of the substances you are using. These are my opinions.
Keeper. Resveratrol...is generally calming to the nervous system, strongly mops up a variety of neurotoxins, the benefits of the stuff as so much, this is a keeper. It is highly unlikely to be causing any side effects or to be interacting with the other substances. However, if your resveratrol is from grapes instead of polygonum cupsidatum (japanese knotweed) then you are missing out of most of the good therapeutic value. Switch to a brand such as Source Naturals or Paradise Herbs, be sure it is derived from japanese knotweed not grapes. Resveratrol is a solid keeper, and your dose is very low. It should be that dose or double that dose, three times a day not once a day. Keep in mind, you aren't dealing with maintenance of good health, you are dealing with a therapeutic situation, which dictates a higher dose. I've taken as much as 4X400mg 4 times a day, and doses that high are also recommended by herbalist experts. Right now I take Paradise Herbs version, 2 capsules 3 times per day.
Problematic. Ginkgo, overhyped, bizarre side effects common but not commonly mentioned to us, and benefits not that great when/if it has any at all. I would drop that one.
Problematic. Korean Ginseng, maybe a bit too strong and destabilizing. Anxiety from this one is almost predictable. The only people I've known that can handle it well and get benefit from it are people fully healthy to begin with, just looking for energy or endurance. Sick people can react bizarrely to it. It is too strong and erratic, I would drop it.
Keeper. Rhodiola is a keeper, but dosing is very tricky. Rhodiola is sort of like 3 or 4 different meds, it takes on a different personality at different doses. So the dose has to be carefully customized to each person. Going simply by what it says on the bottle or what someone else says is completely wrong. Even just a 25mg difference can change what it does and how it feels. Generally it is more activating at lower doses, more calming at higher doses, but for some people the opposite happens. Excellent plant, one of the best on the planet, but it takes some work to find the best dose, and even the best time to dose it. For me, breakfast is bad, afternoon is too late, but mid-morning works very well. Someone else, may be different. You have to work with it and experiment with it, in both dose size and timing.
Ritalin and valium, I dunno, I don't see the sense in taking a stimulant and then squashing it with valium. Take less of the stimulant and skip the valium, or vica versa.
MG Glycinate, yeah, this stuff can have paradoxical effects. Sort of like how some people become activated and wired on sleeping meds such as Ambien and others. I would probably drop it just to remove a possible place of confusion. Can always restart it any time if you want.
Musical chairs is needed to identify what the problem substances are. That means, stop the ones suspect to see what happens, then restart them one at a time to see what happens, and in the process identify what is doing what.
Zoloft for melancholic depression. Well, yeah, there are some clinical studies that point it in that direction, but still, the studies are not exactly solidly convincing. Only a little bit better than sugar pills. For melancholic depression, zoloft could work great if coupled with a noradrenergic med such as savella or nortriptyline. But with the ritalin already on board, that could work too. I like the zoloft idea, just not as monotherapy....there has to be a NE component to go with it.
Posted by Christ_empowered on September 8, 2012, at 18:20:41
In reply to Re: Supplements not mixing well with medication?, posted by bleauberry on September 8, 2012, at 16:47:16
Hey! OK, here's the thing: I take *lots* of supplements. To keep it simple for you, I'll divide it into my core OM line up and the add ons for overall health and specific problems (for me, skin and hair...works well in combo w/ retin-a and propecia).
Core OM line up:(1) 10 grams time release C (2 doses of 5 grams, 1 AM+1PM);(2) 1 b-100 complex, AM (ALWAYS take with food!);(3) 30mgs optizinc; (4) 400 micrograms selenium; (5) 3 grams niacinamide (2 1.5 grams sustained release tabs, one AM+1 PM); (6) tocotrienols (I was using natural form E, but tocotrienols are more potent. I take 2 "suprabio" caps daily, usually in one dose).
Seems like a lot, but most of those things are relatively inexpensive and some of them are dosed just 1x daily, so its not even a hassle.
Now, my additional supplements...
1)4mgs astaxanthin; 2)1-2 grams green tea extract; 3) 200-400mgs grape seed extract; 4) 1 cap soy isoflavones (hair); 5) natural form beta carotene; 6) mixed carotenoid supplement; 7) borage oil 8) vitamin D3
There's synergy, especially with the "core" OM line up. Personally, I think you *should* avoid Abilify if you can. That goes for any antipsychotic, no matter how "atypical." Personally, I'm working down to PRN abilify. If I start having intrusive thoughts and/or hallucinating...30mgs, ASAP. Other than that, I'm unmedicated.
Good luck to you...please keep us all posted.
Posted by AlexCanada on September 9, 2012, at 2:22:20
In reply to Re: Supplements not mixing well with medication?, posted by Chris O on September 8, 2012, at 11:51:26
I'm sorry to hear about your past. Regarding accutane there are many instances online and lawsuits which occured which caused Accutane to receive more severe black box warnings. I'm not sure not everyone gets depressed from Accutane but there are too many cases and for some it may have been mild to the point where they'd never think to attribute it to the drug. Meanwhile a congressman's son killed himself over it.
It is possible that it caused your underlying symptoms to worsen. Usually stopping the medication eventually returns a person to their previous state but likely some damage could remain.
I've since dropped taking most of those supplements and have not noticed a tangible net gain yet, in fact I may be a bit worse but other factors may be involved. My anxiety is usually very low these days recently. feeling extremely dull and cognitively impaired is the big issue aside from strong anhedonia. I am more cognitively impaired than I have been last year and the year before.
My thought process is extremely poor. Mind feels so blocked. My thoughts often interrupt themselves. I just can't think properly. A thick cloud. I'm 2 days on zoloft 25mg (sensetive to meds) + my usual ritalin + valium. and zoloft has definitely impaired my emotions, more flat, apathy, cognition is impaired in way too. but likely these side effects are transient.
I need something to help me think. My mind is in the gutter that I can't even do medical research properly. Today I am able to post due to taking a little bit of Modafinil and a bit of Gabapentin.
> Alex:
>
> It certainly seems like some of those supplements could enhance the pro-anxiety effect of something like ritalin; specifically, the ginseng and rhodiola. However, the magnesium is puzzling, especially at such a low dose. When I took magnesium, in order to get any effect, I used powder and took several grams at a time. The only effect I noticed at high doses, other than reduced anxiety, was diarrhea. Rhodiola and ginseng have never done much for me, even when I gave them month-long trials. As for D3, I just raised my vitamin D levels from 20 to 63 by taking D3. At first, I thought it might be affecting my energy level or mood. But now I think it was just placebo.
>
> You mention accutane poisoning. I took accutane in 1984 when it first came out. I have never even considered it could be a cause of my condition. Interesting that you mention it as a cause of your depression. Sorry to hear that. Makes me think about reinvestigating that whole time in my life. But I also know that my anxiety/depression go way deeper than that, as I was raised by a seriously mentally ill mother, and there are multiple addictions and suicides in my family.
>
> Good luck,
> Chris
Posted by AlexCanada on September 9, 2012, at 2:48:48
In reply to Re: Supplements not mixing well with medication?, posted by bleauberry on September 8, 2012, at 16:47:16
I'll likely try Resveratrol up again tomorrow. I have dropped most of the supplements with seemingly not much benefit except a drop in anxiety and less day time lethargy. Anxiety very low. My emotions are low too though. Zoloft 2 days now at 25mg (sensetive to meds, after 2 weeks increasing to 50mg). so far definitely emotional blunting, def cognitive block to a degree, thought process gets cut off. Gabapentin and Modafinil temporarily (I take these on and off) allowed me to make these forum posts today.
Being off the supplements I noticed I am less tired during the day. Only bit of D3 (1000-2000) and some Omega 500EPA to 70 DHA ratio (2000-3000) per day. sometimes a little bit of gingko. Gingko is fairly consistent in it's ability to boost libido but can't tell if it does much else.
The Resveratrol I have is 200mg Japanese Knotweed and 25mg grapeseed. Webber Naturals brand but I am getting something with just Knotweed sometime next week along with Royal Jelly and some other supplements.
I will keep in mind eventual add-on to zoloft. I have often felt I needed dopamine and Norapinephrine the most from my experiences but Gabapentin being seratonin based and how well it alleviates so many symptoms including restoring emotions and some pleasure etc, along with some partial past success with paxil made me feel seratonin is needed in the equation as well.
Norepinephrine may be the big missing link. But I have responded very poorly to wellbutrin, effexor, nortripiline. Anxiety would manifest itself. The kind where it's just out of no where. Similar to panic attacks. Anxiety ''for no reason''. I was never able to give effexor more than a week because of how horrible i kept feeling but my baseline years ago was worse than it is now. Savella is on my list of what to look into and I'll definitely make a note to bold it.
Thanks for all the advice. Rhodiola I may try again soon. I notice that when i give it a break and restart it often has a positive effect. it also used to work quite well for half of my symptoms such as energy, motivation, drive, cognition. Sisu brand used to work well, NoW brand as well. Both very capable of causing aggression though. Verde Botanica brands were decent but quite mild. Thorne appeared to be lousy. Arctic Root used in swedish studies seemed thus far to be not too effective for me surprisingly.
> I am fairly familiar with all of the substances you are using. These are my opinions.
>
> Keeper. Resveratrol...is generally calming to the nervous system, strongly mops up a variety of neurotoxins, the benefits of the stuff as so much, this is a keeper. It is highly unlikely to be causing any side effects or to be interacting with the other substances. However, if your resveratrol is from grapes instead of polygonum cupsidatum (japanese knotweed) then you are missing out of most of the good therapeutic value. Switch to a brand such as Source Naturals or Paradise Herbs, be sure it is derived from japanese knotweed not grapes. Resveratrol is a solid keeper, and your dose is very low. It should be that dose or double that dose, three times a day not once a day. Keep in mind, you aren't dealing with maintenance of good health, you are dealing with a therapeutic situation, which dictates a higher dose. I've taken as much as 4X400mg 4 times a day, and doses that high are also recommended by herbalist experts. Right now I take Paradise Herbs version, 2 capsules 3 times per day.
>
> Problematic. Ginkgo, overhyped, bizarre side effects common but not commonly mentioned to us, and benefits not that great when/if it has any at all. I would drop that one.
>
> Problematic. Korean Ginseng, maybe a bit too strong and destabilizing. Anxiety from this one is almost predictable. The only people I've known that can handle it well and get benefit from it are people fully healthy to begin with, just looking for energy or endurance. Sick people can react bizarrely to it. It is too strong and erratic, I would drop it.
>
> Keeper. Rhodiola is a keeper, but dosing is very tricky. Rhodiola is sort of like 3 or 4 different meds, it takes on a different personality at different doses. So the dose has to be carefully customized to each person. Going simply by what it says on the bottle or what someone else says is completely wrong. Even just a 25mg difference can change what it does and how it feels. Generally it is more activating at lower doses, more calming at higher doses, but for some people the opposite happens. Excellent plant, one of the best on the planet, but it takes some work to find the best dose, and even the best time to dose it. For me, breakfast is bad, afternoon is too late, but mid-morning works very well. Someone else, may be different. You have to work with it and experiment with it, in both dose size and timing.
>
> Ritalin and valium, I dunno, I don't see the sense in taking a stimulant and then squashing it with valium. Take less of the stimulant and skip the valium, or vica versa.
>
> MG Glycinate, yeah, this stuff can have paradoxical effects. Sort of like how some people become activated and wired on sleeping meds such as Ambien and others. I would probably drop it just to remove a possible place of confusion. Can always restart it any time if you want.
>
> Musical chairs is needed to identify what the problem substances are. That means, stop the ones suspect to see what happens, then restart them one at a time to see what happens, and in the process identify what is doing what.
>
> Zoloft for melancholic depression. Well, yeah, there are some clinical studies that point it in that direction, but still, the studies are not exactly solidly convincing. Only a little bit better than sugar pills. For melancholic depression, zoloft could work great if coupled with a noradrenergic med such as savella or nortriptyline. But with the ritalin already on board, that could work too. I like the zoloft idea, just not as monotherapy....there has to be a NE component to go with it.
This is the end of the thread.
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