Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1016380

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Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 7:06:12

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 5:22:24

> This article enforces my own view and experience.
>
> AD's have contributed immensly to ruining my life and have done more harm than good. Not that they have done anything good really.
>
> You know SLS, allopathic medicine is not the only ones who treat psychiatric disorders.

Yes, I know, but I doubt homeopathic medicine is of any use. However, I think the "naturopath" or "integrated" approaches are worth exploring. If my sister were to accept medicating herself for her mild, but chronic depression, I would rather see her try St. John's Wort or L-methylfolate than to take Prozac. I don't want the more potent SRIs coursing though her brain if it can at all be avoided. She is actually a responder to Nardil, and has needed it for the more severe depression, GAD, and panic attacks that she experienced. She now does okay without it, and I am happy for the decisions she has made for herself.

We keep hearing stories about people for whom pharmacotherapy is either a blessing or a curse. Both are true, of course.

Some people mistake "homeopathic" for "naturopathic".

Homeopathy (homeo = same) is the use of minute amounts of the same substance that would bring out identical symptoms when large amounts are applied to a healthy person.

Allopathy (allo = different) is a method of treating disease with remedies that produce effects antagonistic to those caused by the disease itself.

Naturopathy (naturo = natural) is more of a philosophy or set of principles than a prescribed methodology. Above all, it honors the bodys innate wisdom to heal. Naturopathy is sometimes referred to as being holistic medicine. This is wrong.

Holistic (holos = whole) medicine is considered to be an art and science of healing that addresses care of the whole person - body, mind, and spirit. The practice of holistic medicine integrates conventional and complementary alternative therapies to promote optimal health, and prevent and treat disease by addressing contributing factors.

Integrative (integrate = bring together) medicine uses an ecclectic approach to enhance the health of the individual. It postulates that one is more than the sum of his illnesses. The therapeutic modalities employed integrate methods drawn from a great many sources. These include allotropic medicine as well as naturapathic philosophies.


- Scott

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 9:38:37

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 7:06:12

> > This article enforces my own view and experience.
> >
> > AD's have contributed immensly to ruining my life and have done more harm than good. Not that they have done anything good really.
> >
> > You know SLS, allopathic medicine is not the only ones who treat psychiatric disorders.
>
> Yes, I know, but I doubt homeopathic medicine is of any use. However, I think the "naturopath" or "integrated" approaches are worth exploring. If my sister were to accept medicating herself for her mild, but chronic depression, I would rather see her try St. John's Wort or L-methylfolate than to take Prozac. I don't want the more potent SRIs coursing though her brain if it can at all be avoided. She is actually a responder to Nardil, and has needed it for the more severe depression, GAD, and panic attacks that she experienced. She now does okay without it, and I am happy for the decisions she has made for herself.
>
> We keep hearing stories about people for whom pharmacotherapy is either a blessing or a curse. Both are true, of course.
>
> Some people mistake "homeopathic" for "naturopathic".
>
> Homeopathy (homeo = same) is the use of minute amounts of the same substance that would bring out identical symptoms when large amounts are applied to a healthy person.
>
> Allopathy (allo = different) is a method of treating disease with remedies that produce effects antagonistic to those caused by the disease itself.
>
> Naturopathy (naturo = natural) is more of a philosophy or set of principles than a prescribed methodology. Above all, it honors the bodys innate wisdom to heal. Naturopathy is sometimes referred to as being holistic medicine. This is wrong.
>
> Holistic (holos = whole) medicine is considered to be an art and science of healing that addresses care of the whole person - body, mind, and spirit. The practice of holistic medicine integrates conventional and complementary alternative therapies to promote optimal health, and prevent and treat disease by addressing contributing factors.
>
> Integrative (integrate = bring together) medicine uses an ecclectic approach to enhance the health of the individual. It postulates that one is more than the sum of his illnesses. The therapeutic modalities employed integrate methods drawn from a great many sources. These include allotropic medicine as well as naturapathic philosophies.
>
>
> - Scott

Hi Scott

I was talking more about Traditionel Chinese Medicine, Ayuervedic Medicine and Tibetan Buddhist Medicine.

Systems of medical practice which has been used for centuries, I think the problem is that we catogerize all branches of medicine that is not allopathic into "Alternative" which we equate with snake oil.

There is alot more to things like TCM than acupuncture and moxibustion. However I think it's difficult to find authentic quality doctors in these types practice in the west unless you know your stuff.

I know that Tibetan buddhist medicine has medcines that have been tried and tested with succes for depression and anxiety. I bet formulas like Semde and Bimala would trumph western antiedepressants in a clinical trials. And without side effects.

Of course some TBM practices are buddhist in nature. Depression with be associated with attachment. Also strong attachment to the body, which is why we often see people with predisposition to depression to have a hypochondrial side. A buddhist practice for these people would be Chöd.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 9:38:53

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 7:06:12

> > This article enforces my own view and experience.
> >
> > AD's have contributed immensly to ruining my life and have done more harm than good. Not that they have done anything good really.
> >
> > You know SLS, allopathic medicine is not the only ones who treat psychiatric disorders.
>
> Yes, I know, but I doubt homeopathic medicine is of any use. However, I think the "naturopath" or "integrated" approaches are worth exploring. If my sister were to accept medicating herself for her mild, but chronic depression, I would rather see her try St. John's Wort or L-methylfolate than to take Prozac. I don't want the more potent SRIs coursing though her brain if it can at all be avoided. She is actually a responder to Nardil, and has needed it for the more severe depression, GAD, and panic attacks that she experienced. She now does okay without it, and I am happy for the decisions she has made for herself.
>
> We keep hearing stories about people for whom pharmacotherapy is either a blessing or a curse. Both are true, of course.
>
> Some people mistake "homeopathic" for "naturopathic".
>
> Homeopathy (homeo = same) is the use of minute amounts of the same substance that would bring out identical symptoms when large amounts are applied to a healthy person.
>
> Allopathy (allo = different) is a method of treating disease with remedies that produce effects antagonistic to those caused by the disease itself.
>
> Naturopathy (naturo = natural) is more of a philosophy or set of principles than a prescribed methodology. Above all, it honors the bodys innate wisdom to heal. Naturopathy is sometimes referred to as being holistic medicine. This is wrong.
>
> Holistic (holos = whole) medicine is considered to be an art and science of healing that addresses care of the whole person - body, mind, and spirit. The practice of holistic medicine integrates conventional and complementary alternative therapies to promote optimal health, and prevent and treat disease by addressing contributing factors.
>
> Integrative (integrate = bring together) medicine uses an ecclectic approach to enhance the health of the individual. It postulates that one is more than the sum of his illnesses. The therapeutic modalities employed integrate methods drawn from a great many sources. These include allotropic medicine as well as naturapathic philosophies.
>
>
> - Scott

Hi Scott

I was talking more about Traditionel Chinese Medicine, Ayuervedic Medicine and Tibetan Buddhist Medicine.

Systems of medical practice which has been used for centuries, I think the problem is that we catogerize all branches of medicine that is not allopathic into "Alternative" which we equate with snake oil.

There is alot more to things like TCM than acupuncture and moxibustion. However I think it's difficult to find authentic quality doctors in these types practice in the west unless you know your stuff.

I know that Tibetan buddhist medicine has medcines that have been tried and tested with succes for depression and anxiety. I bet formulas like Semde and Bimala would trumph western antiedepressants in a clinical trials. And without side effects.

Of course some TBM practices are buddhist in nature. Depression with be associated with attachment. Also strong attachment to the body, which is why we often see people with predisposition to depression to have a hypochondrial side. A buddhist practice for these people would be Chöd.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 9:42:25

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 9:38:37

I also communicate with a TBM doctor who also is a Dzogchen teacher. He says that allopathic medicine is best for things that require surgery, but not really so much else. That has really been my experience all along.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » AlexanderDenmark

Posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 10:11:25

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 9:42:25

> I also communicate with a TBM doctor who also is a Dzogchen teacher. He says that allopathic medicine is best for things that require surgery, but not really so much else. That has really been my experience all along.

Thanks for the information. There was a time when I thought to try acupuncture. However, I was short on cash at the time. Also, the Korean practitioner that I saw could not describe for me a specific treatment to address depression. I am sure that there are some, but I didn't pursue it.


- Scott

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 11:21:06

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » AlexanderDenmark, posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 10:11:25

> > I also communicate with a TBM doctor who also is a Dzogchen teacher. He says that allopathic medicine is best for things that require surgery, but not really so much else. That has really been my experience all along.
>
> Thanks for the information. There was a time when I thought to try acupuncture. However, I was short on cash at the time. Also, the Korean practitioner that I saw could not describe for me a specific treatment to address depression. I am sure that there are some, but I didn't pursue it.
>
>
> - Scott

Okay

I think Acupuncture in itself would be too weak for clinical chronic depression. It can probably induce relaxation and release emotional tension pent up in the body though.

-Alex

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by Phil on April 30, 2012, at 11:53:29

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 11:21:06

China accounts for 40% of the worlds 1 million yearly suicides. Yeah China is a huge country but still.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 11:57:11

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by Phil on April 30, 2012, at 11:53:29

> China accounts for 40% of the worlds 1 million yearly suicides. Yeah China is a huge country but still.

And why do you think that is?

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 12:34:05

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by Phil on April 30, 2012, at 11:53:29

> China accounts for 40% of the worlds 1 million yearly suicides. Yeah China is a huge country but still.

> China accounts for 40% of the worlds 1 million yearly suicides. Yeah China is a huge country but still.

Top 10 suicide pr. 100.000 capita countries

Rank Country Male Female Total Year
1 Lithuania 61.3 10.4 34.1 2009
2 South Korea[3] (more info) 41.4 21.0 31.2 2010
3 Guyana 39.0 13.4 26.4 2006
4 Kazakhstan 43.0 9.4 25.6 2008
5 Belarus[4][5] 25.3 2010
6 Hungary[6] 40.0 10.6 24.6 2009
7 Japan (more info)[7] 33.5 14.6 23.8 2011
8 Latvia 40.0 8.2 22.9 2009
9 People's Republic of China [8]
(more info) 22.23 2010
10 Slovenia 34.6 9.4 21.9 2009

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by Phil on April 30, 2012, at 12:37:24

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 11:57:11

I don't know but I bet you're going to tell me.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » AlexanderDenmark

Posted by Phil on April 30, 2012, at 13:13:10

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 11:57:11

I had old info. My mistake,

In a prior study, Phillips found that 40% of all suicides in the world occur in China, but depression there is three to five times less common than in the West, and substance abuse, often viewed as another cause of suicide, is much less common in China than in the West

But you were going to tell me why China accounted for 40% and then posted something else.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 13:44:16

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » AlexanderDenmark, posted by Phil on April 30, 2012, at 13:13:10

> I had old info. My mistake,
>
> In a prior study, Phillips found that 40% of all suicides in the world occur in China, but depression there is three to five times less common than in the West, and substance abuse, often viewed as another cause of suicide, is much less common in China than in the West
>
> But you were going to tell me why China accounted for 40% and then posted something else.

No, I was asking you why you think that it is so. My thoughts on it would be that China has a totalirian regime with a capitalistic economy. You have no freedom, no one gives a rats *ss about you. Widespread poverty and add to that a rigid materialistic culture that also emphasis pride and family honour above all else. Not to mention a ban on all religious practice.

Why do you think rich developed countries like Denmark and Norway have a much higher suicide rate than contries like Columbia and Egypt? And why does South Korea and Japan have a much much higher suicide rate than say Thailand?

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 15:02:15

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » AlexanderDenmark, posted by Phil on April 30, 2012, at 13:13:10

> I had old info. My mistake,
>
> In a prior study, Phillips found that 40% of all suicides in the world occur in China, but depression there is three to five times less common than in the West, and substance abuse, often viewed as another cause of suicide, is much less common in China than in the West
>
> But you were going to tell me why China accounted for 40% and then posted something else.

Iran has a much lower suicide rate than the US. I suppose that means that the best treatment of psychiatric disorders for men is being whipped and for women being stoned.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » SLS

Posted by Phillipa on April 30, 2012, at 20:11:37

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 7:06:12

Scott am I reading correctly. You have a sister that has mild depression and you would prefer she take ST Johns Wort? So in reality you don't find meds that safe? Or what would be a reason for her not taking medications? Also what's your definition of mild depression and anxiety. I'm seriously interested. Thanks Phillipa

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » Phillipa

Posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 22:16:08

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » SLS, posted by Phillipa on April 30, 2012, at 20:11:37

> Scott am I reading correctly.

I don't know.

> You have a sister that has mild depression and you would prefer she take ST Johns Wort?

She tried SJW once on her own. She reported that it helped. I prefer that she not take a powerful reuptake inhibitor if she can do without it. This is a personal decision that she has made for herself. If her condition were to deteriorate and affect her ability to function, I would certainly lobby her to see a doctor for treatment. My sister functions quite well without medication at the moment. Nardil was a godsend for her when she needed it.

> So in reality you don't find meds that safe?

In reality, I never said that. What do you mean by "safe"? Side effects are an issue, not death.

I believe that reuptake inhibitors can leave footprints on the terrain of the brain. Antidepressant-induced antidepressant refractoriness is an example of this. In other words, one often finds that they respond well to Paxil the first time they take it, and less well upon subsequent administrations. Paxil thus has produced persistent changes in the terrain of the brain. That's my belief, anyway.

> Or what would be a reason for her not taking medications?

Her reasons are to remain private. Sorry, Jan. I should not have mentioned her. That was pretty stupid of me.

> Also what's your definition of mild depression and anxiety.

I defer to the definitions used by members of the psychiatric profession. I am not sure exactly where to draw lines, if that's what you mean.

Depression and anxiety rating scales can provide an indication of severity, should you feel the need to rate yourself. I think the rating scales currently in use are too primitive, but they seem to be of some utility. Better ones are needed. Hamilton, Beck, Burns, Montgomery Åsberg, Zung, etc. I think they all suck. The HAM-D is probably the scale most often used. I bet improvements in rating systems would result in a reduction in the placebo response rate in clinical trials. It is ridiculous that these 50-year old measurement instruments still exist.

Antidepressants are not ideal treatments for depression or anxiety disorders. Are they universally safe? No.

Tylenol kills. What shall we do about this? I guess it is a matter of perspective and taking care in evaluating the rate of occurrence of these adverse events. Weighing the risk versus benefit of using antidepressants and antipsychotics have led me to decide to take them. Unfortunately, I feel that I have no better choice. The severity of my illness requires that it be treated. So far, the myriad drugs that I have taken over the last 30 years have not killed me. They haven't even left me with any obvious irreversible effects other than the possible induction of greater treatment resistance.


- Scott

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by sigismund on April 30, 2012, at 23:17:17

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » AlexanderDenmark, posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 10:11:25

> Also, the Korean practitioner that I saw could not describe for me a specific treatment to address depression. I am sure that there are some, but I didn't pursue it.

Take this with a grain of salt but I think they have this idea of the brain being a 'strange organ' (which is kind of funny) and don't have a mind/body distinction, and view it all as subsections of their existing categories so to speak. The good ones are very good but there is a lot of variation because it cannot be standardised in the same way. Perhaps for that reason it can be better. I don't live near these people but would see them otherwise

http://www.tcmaustralia.com.au/

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » SLS

Posted by Phillipa on May 1, 2012, at 12:27:22

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » Phillipa, posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 22:16:08

Scott thanks that's fair. No problem mentioning her. I do it all the time with other neighbors or friends or family. I did google ST Johns Wort and found that a bit contradictory also. High functioning or "normal" function is what in your definition? See docs have really been no help to me. And at this point not sure if it's just me and expecting too much of life or something I can help or maybe remit? Cure wouldn't be the right word. Thanks sometimes I do wish you would have your babblemail on as somethings as above is meant more for private. Just my opinion. Phillipa

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » AlexanderDenmark

Posted by Phil on May 3, 2012, at 7:26:21

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 13:44:16

Why do you think rich developed countries like Denmark and Norway have a much higher suicide rate than contries like Columbia and Egypt? And why does South Korea and Japan have a much much higher suicide rate than say Thailand?

Good question but I'm sure there are a lot of factors involved. I know success is the thing in Japan and if you drop the ball on a business deal you're SOL. I would think Iran is under reported.

I worked in sales for a Danish furniture store for 7 years. I'm just reporting what I saw and generally, many of my bosses were extremely anal and loved the booze. Not all of them but many of them. They were also very good at what the did. I had a lot of respect for them.

A lot of China's suicides are by young women in very rural area with not a lot of hope, they drank pesticides. This info could be outdated.

If I get a wretched illness down the line with no one to take care of me, dementia for one, you can add another one to the US count.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by AlexanderDenmark on May 3, 2012, at 8:09:27

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » AlexanderDenmark, posted by Phil on May 3, 2012, at 7:26:21

> Why do you think rich developed countries like Denmark and Norway have a much higher suicide rate than contries like Columbia and Egypt? And why does South Korea and Japan have a much much higher suicide rate than say Thailand?
>
> Good question but I'm sure there are a lot of factors involved. I know success is the thing in Japan and if you drop the ball on a business deal you're SOL. I would think Iran is under reported.
>
> I worked in sales for a Danish furniture store for 7 years. I'm just reporting what I saw and generally, many of my bosses were extremely anal and loved the booze. Not all of them but many of them. They were also very good at what the did. I had a lot of respect for them.
>
> A lot of China's suicides are by young women in very rural area with not a lot of hope, they drank pesticides. This info could be outdated.
>
> If I get a wretched illness down the line with no one to take care of me, dementia for one, you can add another one to the US count.

Danes have a very good work ethic. We have a bit of an unhealthy booze culture though.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper (nm)

Posted by Phil on May 3, 2012, at 8:36:42

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on May 3, 2012, at 8:09:27

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by zazenducke on May 3, 2012, at 8:56:20

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 15:02:15

> > I had old info. My mistake,
> >
> > In a prior study, Phillips found that 40% of all suicides in the world occur in China, but depression there is three to five times less common than in the West, and substance abuse, often viewed as another cause of suicide, is much less common in China than in the West

Many suicides are not caused by an "illness" called depression but by life circumstances. If someone has terminal cancer or is being tortured and kills herself or is in intolerable circumstances such as abusive marriage with no escape that is not "depression".

There is a study that says suicide is more likely in places where the level of happiness is greatest. Perhaps because of dissatisfaction with one's life compared to others. In places where people are unhappier no one expects so much out of life I guess or feels a fellowship with fellow sufferer. For instance in the US New Jersey is the 47th happiest state and also the 47th in suicide rate. Perhaps Iran like New Jersey is just an unhappy place and has low expectations?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110421082641.htm

The US is exporting the idea of "mental illness" as well as the remedy. People in other cultures are being taught to define various human states of mind as illnesses which require medication.
"Crazy Like Us" describes the campaign to teach Japan how to be depressed. And this was done without direct advertising of meds. It was public service announcments to sell the illness and then the AD sales followed.

> >
> >

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by Phil on May 3, 2012, at 12:18:00

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by zazenducke on May 3, 2012, at 8:56:20

http://www.japantoday.com/category/arts-culture/view/new-documentary-explores-taboo-subject-of-mental-illness-in-japan
I just posted the above quote for the 40% that I had misstated.
The above movie looks interesting as far as Japan goes. Knowing how stoic they can be I don't think that a bit of conversation on mental illness would be a bad thing.
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/schizoaffective/content/article/10168/2053799
I don't see this magazine saying they know it all and can cure it all.

The way I see it, if someone does not like meds, don't take them. If, like me, you're on them for 30 years then stop, that's my choice. The same as taking them was.

But, I think I heard the DSM 5 will consider you MDD if two weeks later you're still grieving a close relatives death. It was 2 months I think and neither one are right. It's bs. There are many other examples.

Then again, Thorazine and a few other drugs empty out asylums and people could more or less live a normal life. I'd rather take Thorazine than have a lobotomy. They are undiagnosed people who become psychotic. They are taken to a psych ward, given meds and talk therapy and many do well.
My own mother had, severe doesn't describe it, breakdown, a hideous depression. ECT was, believe me, the right choice. After a period of several months, my mom was back. Not many Bregginites would think much of ECT. Maybe anti-psych people haven't seen their mother in a major depression.
I think that meds / no meds conversations are reaching the same fever pitch as abortion. I have to wonder when gunning down psychiatrists is going to become an ever present reality.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » zazenducke

Posted by SLS on May 3, 2012, at 21:03:03

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by zazenducke on May 3, 2012, at 8:56:20

Hi.

> The US is exporting the idea of "mental illness" as well as the remedy. People in other cultures are being taught to define various human states of mind as illnesses which require medication.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I imagine there is some truth to be found in this notion.

> "Crazy Like Us" describes the campaign to teach Japan how to be depressed. And this was done without direct advertising of meds. It was public service announcments to sell the illness and then the AD sales followed.

According to the book, when did the US begin this campaign process in Japan?

Japan has had antidepressants since the early 1980s, some of which we will never see. This was true before the introduction of Prozac. Rolipram and adinazolam are two examples of Japanese antidepressants that have been available since 1983.

The French have been ahead of us in many ways in the definition and treatment of mental illness. The first antipsychotic, Thorazine, was developed in France by Rhône Poulenc in 1951. The French also have had lots of antidepressants that are exclusive to that country. The first SSRI was not Prozac. It was a drug called zimelidine. Zimelidine was developed in the late 1970s and sold in Europe until fatal side effect emerged (Guillain-Barré syndrome). I don't know in what country imipramine, the first tricyclic antidepressant, was first synthesized, but it was the Swiss who discovered its therapeutic properties.

I would have to say that the French and Swiss were complicit with the Americans in exporting mental health.


- Scott

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » SLS

Posted by zazenducke on May 4, 2012, at 10:33:22

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » zazenducke, posted by SLS on May 3, 2012, at 21:03:03


>
> > "Crazy Like Us" describes the campaign to teach Japan how to be depressed. And this was done without direct advertising of meds. It was public service announcments to sell the illness and then the AD sales followed.
>
> According to the book, when did the US begin this campaign process in Japan?

I don't have the book at hand but this from the NYTimes

In the late 1980's, Eli Lilly decided against selling Prozac in Japan after market research there revealed virtually no demand for antidepressants. Throughout the 90's, when Prozac and other selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or S.S.R.I.'s, were traveling the strange road from chemical compound to cultural phenomenon in the West, the drugs and the disease alike remained virtually unknown in Japan.

Then, in 1999, a Japanese company, Meiji Seika Kaisha, began selling the S.S.R.I. Depromel. Meiji was among the first users of the phrase kokoro no kaze. The next year, GlaxoSmithKline -- maker of the antidepressant Paxil -- followed Meiji into the market. Koji Nakagawa, GlaxoSmithKline's product manager for Paxil, explained: ''When other pharmaceutical companies were giving up on developing antidepressants in Japan, we went ahead for a very simple reason: the successful marketing in the United States and Europe.''

Direct-to-consumer drug advertising is illegal in Japan, so the company relied on educational campaigns targeting mild depression. As Nakagawa put it: ''People didn't know they were suffering from a disease. We felt it was important to reach out to them.'' So the company formulated a tripartite message: ''Depression is a disease that anyone can get. It can be cured by medicine. Early detection is important.''

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/22/magazine/did-antidepressants-depress-japan.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

>
> Japan has had antidepressants since the early 1980s, some of which we will never see. This was true before the introduction of Prozac. Rolipram and adinazolam are two examples of Japanese antidepressants that have been available since 1983.
>
> The French have been ahead of us in many ways in the definition and treatment of mental illness. The first antipsychotic, Thorazine, was developed in France by Rhône Poulenc in 1951. The French also have had lots of antidepressants that are exclusive to that country. The first SSRI was not Prozac. It was a drug called zimelidine. Zimelidine was developed in the late 1970s and sold in Europe until fatal side effect emerged (Guillain-Barré syndrome). I don't know in what country imipramine, the first tricyclic antidepressant, was first synthesized, but it was the Swiss who discovered its therapeutic properties.
>
> I would have to say that the French and Swiss were complicit with the Americans in exporting mental health.
>
>

I don't believe I ever said the Americans were exporting "mental health". I don't agree with statement.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » zazenducke

Posted by SLS on May 4, 2012, at 11:44:42

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » SLS, posted by zazenducke on May 4, 2012, at 10:33:22

> > > "Crazy Like Us" describes the campaign to teach Japan how to be depressed. And this was done without direct advertising of meds. It was public service announcments to sell the illness and then the AD sales followed.

> > According to the book, when did the US begin this campaign process in Japan?

> I don't have the book at hand but this from the NYTimes

> In the late 1980's, Eli Lilly decided against selling Prozac in Japan after market research there revealed virtually no demand for antidepressants.

There are several reasons for this, including a cultural bias against admitting mental illness and an insurance program that would not cover antidepressants.

> Throughout the 90's, when Prozac and other selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or S.S.R.I.'s, were traveling the strange road from chemical compound to cultural phenomenon in the West, the drugs and the disease alike remained virtually unknown in Japan.

The disease became known once it became culturally more acceptable to admit depression. It is not surprising that psychopharmacology lagged behind the West. It still does.

The West exported penicillin to Japan. The pathogens were already there. We just helped the Japanese to identify and treat them.

> Then, in 1999, a Japanese company, Meiji Seika Kaisha, began selling the S.S.R.I. Depromel. Meiji was among the first users of the phrase kokoro no kaze. The next year, GlaxoSmithKline -- maker of the antidepressant Paxil -- followed Meiji into the market. Koji Nakagawa, GlaxoSmithKline's product manager for Paxil, explained: ''When other pharmaceutical companies were giving up on developing antidepressants in Japan, we went ahead for a very simple reason: the successful marketing in the United States and Europe.''

Capitalism. I wouldn't presume to know all of the things that were inside the heads of the decision-makers, but capitalism still works to save people's lives. I guess conspiracy is in the eye of the beholder. One person's education of a culture is another's disinforming that culture using propaganda. I don't doubt that the marketing departments of pharmaceutical companies are given the responsibility to foster sales of product regardless of the science or clinical practice behind it. That's their job. They do this with good drugs as well as bad drugs.

I am biased. My personal experience has demonstrated to me that my depression is a biological illness that responds to biological interventions while psychotherapeutic interventions proved ineffective.

Psychiatry has made a mess of things. Overconfidence and premature announcements have diminished credibility. The inexactitude of those treatment methods that involve trial-and-error begs to question the competence of the entire psychiatric field. Yes, it is quite a mess, but I don't believe that there are master puppeteers steering the practice of psychiatry to create that mess. Science is resolved to cure depression throughout the world. That's one hell of a conspiracy.


- Scott


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