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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Hugh on February 9, 2012, at 17:18:07
In reply to Re: Ketamine: Replication of previous studies., posted by Roslynn on February 9, 2012, at 14:28:22
> Did anyone see the guy who was profiled last week on the news w/Diane Sawyer? He responded to Ketamine and now is taking another experimental drug that is also working for him.
>
> Does anyone know the name of the experimental drug he is now taking? I could not find this information.Riluzole. It's been used for over fifteen years to treat ALS, and is extremely expensive. Sun Pharma received tentative approval from the FDA to manufacture a generic version, which would be much cheaper. That was over a year ago, but generic riluzole still isn't available.
Posted by linkadge on February 9, 2012, at 18:15:00
In reply to Re: Ketamine: Replication of previous studies., posted by SLS on February 9, 2012, at 5:37:08
>The goal is, of course, being able to synthesize >a new drug that offers antidepressant efficacy >similar to ketamine, but without the side >effects.
To be honest, I don't really think that the so called "side effects" are much to be worried about. After all, people take the drug cause it gets them high! I would assume that if it does cause such "side effects", most users wouldn't be too bothered. They might find it enjoyable. I would also expect that major adverse reactions would be low at such doses.
Some of the side effects i.e. grandiosity, feeling "out of body", euphoria, feelings of power etc. are the opposite of depression. Think of it, the depresed person feels worthless, that life has no meaning, that there is no larger picture, that they are trapped in their body and mind, dysphoria etc.
The problem is that psychiatry is still looking for this amazing antidepressant that does not cause euphoria. Its not possible in my opinion.
Depression --> euphoria is a spectrum. The drug simply pushes you a little further along this. I don't think they are going to be able to tease apart the theraputic and so called "side effects".
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on February 9, 2012, at 18:17:57
In reply to Re: Ketamine: Replication of previous studies., posted by Hugh on February 9, 2012, at 17:18:07
I think that ketamine should be tested beside (or in combination with zinc).
People don't care about zinc because its cheap and readily available. Therefore, all this energy will go towards scarce, expensive and exotic medications like ketamine and riluzole.
Zinc activates the mTOR neurogenic pathway just as ketamine.
Posted by SLS on February 9, 2012, at 18:56:39
In reply to Re: Ketamine: Replication of previous studies., posted by linkadge on February 9, 2012, at 18:17:57
> Zinc activates the mTOR neurogenic pathway just as ketamine.
What does this indicate to you?- Scott
Posted by SLS on February 9, 2012, at 19:05:22
In reply to Re: Ketamine: Replication of previous studies. » SLS, posted by linkadge on February 9, 2012, at 18:15:00
> Depression --> euphoria is a spectrum.
>
> The drug simply pushes you a little further along this.This is simple, to be sure.
> I don't think they are going to be able to tease apart the theraputic and so called "side effects".
Let's just say for now that psyshosis is a side effect. If you would enjoy being psychotic, then perhaps this is the right drug for you.
http://www.ketamine.com/schizohypoth.html
"In healthy subjects, ketamine produces: 1) positive symptoms of psychosis, such as illusions, thought disorder and delusions; 2) negative symptoms similar to those associated with schizophrenia including blunted emotional responses, emotional detachment, and psychomotor retardation; 3) cognitive impairments, in particular impairments on tests of frontal cortical function including increased distractibility, reduced verbal fluency and poorer performance on the Wisconsin Card Sorting Test. "
- Scott
Posted by Twinleaf on February 9, 2012, at 19:19:47
In reply to Re: Ketamine: Replication of previous studies. » linkadge, posted by SLS on February 9, 2012, at 19:05:22
According to my pdoc, the side effects you describe are associated with IV use; he is not seeing them with a low oral dose.
Posted by SLS on February 9, 2012, at 19:40:29
In reply to Re: Ketamine: Replication of previous studies., posted by Twinleaf on February 9, 2012, at 19:19:47
> According to my pdoc, the side effects you describe are associated with IV use; he is not seeing them with a low oral dose.
Ah. That is indeed encouraging.
Would you happen to know what dose he is using?
Is oral ketamine available from pharmacies?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on February 9, 2012, at 20:33:23
In reply to Re: Ketamine: Replication of previous studies. » linkadge, posted by SLS on February 9, 2012, at 19:05:22
> Let's just say for now that psyshosis is a side effect. If you would enjoy being psychotic, then perhaps this is the right drug for you.
My apologies. I was wrong.
- Scott
Posted by Twinleaf on February 9, 2012, at 20:57:43
In reply to Re: Ketamine: Replication of previous studies. » Twinleaf, posted by SLS on February 9, 2012, at 19:40:29
I will ask him about the dosage when I see him next.
He has a compounding pharmacy make the ketamine pills in the dosage he chooses. I asked him if he had to have any kind of special license or permission to prescribe it and he said he didn't
Posted by SLS on February 10, 2012, at 6:15:46
In reply to Re: Ketamine: Replication of previous studies. » linkadge, posted by SLS on February 9, 2012, at 19:05:22
Hi Linkadge.
Just in case you didn't see my other post, I would like to apologize for my having posted the following:
> Let's just say for now that psyshosis is a side effect. If you would enjoy being psychotic, then perhaps this is the right drug for you.
Sorry.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on February 10, 2012, at 6:17:30
In reply to Re: Ketamine: Replication of previous studies., posted by linkadge on February 9, 2012, at 18:17:57
Posted by Twinleaf on February 10, 2012, at 11:33:12
In reply to Re: Ketamine: Replication of previous studies. » Twinleaf, posted by SLS on February 9, 2012, at 19:40:29
The: dosage of ketamine was 100 mg. once daily in the AM initially; he is now maintained on 200 mg. daily. On this dosage he feels slightly high and spacey for about an hour ( no dissociation), and then settles into feeling normal for the rest of the day.
Posted by Roslynn on February 10, 2012, at 12:49:30
In reply to Re: Ketamine: Replication of previous studies., posted by Hugh on February 9, 2012, at 17:18:07
Thank you so much for giving me this info!
Roslynn
>
> Riluzole. It's been used for over fifteen years to treat ALS, and is extremely expensive. Sun Pharma received tentative approval from the FDA to manufacture a generic version, which would be much cheaper. That was over a year ago, but generic riluzole still isn't available.
>
>
Posted by phidippus on February 10, 2012, at 12:53:11
In reply to Re: Ketamine: Replication of previous studies., posted by SLS on February 9, 2012, at 5:37:08
I was on a Ketamine infusion
0.5mg/kg IV over 40 minutes.I exeprienced no psychosis or otherwise undesriable cognitive effects. Just this slight derealization.
Eric
Posted by SLS on February 10, 2012, at 13:10:20
In reply to Re: Ketamine: Replication of previous studies., posted by Twinleaf on February 10, 2012, at 11:33:12
> The: dosage of ketamine was 100 mg. once daily in the AM initially; he is now maintained on 200 mg. daily. On this dosage he feels slightly high and spacey for about an hour ( no dissociation), and then settles into feeling normal for the rest of the day.
Thank you for looking into this.
- Scott
Posted by roversreturn on February 14, 2012, at 14:23:43
In reply to Re: Ketamine: Replication of previous studies., posted by Twinleaf on February 10, 2012, at 11:33:12
It should probably be noted that premilinary evidence studying long terms intranasal users of Ketamine (and I'd expect taken as a pill as well) seems to lead to bladder damage.
Therefore, unless you are suicidal then I would probably not recommend taking it on a long term basis any other way but through IV treatment. I must state that I am merely stating what the literature seems to suggest and I am by no means adverse to trying more 'exotic' treatments, as mainstream medication seems to be ineffective for many.
Rover
Posted by JohnLA on February 14, 2012, at 18:02:38
In reply to Ketamine - bladder issues, posted by roversreturn on February 14, 2012, at 14:23:43
hi rover-
could you cite some references to this bladder issue?
please take a look at this;
about half-way down she mentions the bladder issue. (she is a neurologist.) she cites several references for the use of ketamine in pain management/depression. she also sates that the amount of ketamine she uses to treat depression is much lower than the amount used in iv delivery. if you read all the way thru she questions the bladder issue you discuss. as with all medications there are risks. still, i think ketamine may lead to new meds for us suffering from depression.
there are several studies (some at the phase 2 level) trying out ketamine nasal spray for depression. let me know if you'd like me to site them.
i'll keep you posted as i am going down to san diego in hopes of 'scoring' some ketamine nasal spray. ; )
take care.
john
Posted by Iansf on February 15, 2012, at 10:20:11
In reply to Re: Ketamine - bladder issues, posted by JohnLA on February 14, 2012, at 18:02:38
> please take a look at this;
>
> http://painsandiego.com/2012/01/25/ketamine-intranasal-for-rapid-relief-of-pain-and-depression-opioids-fail-to-help-pain-care-reform-is-urgently-needed/
>
> about half-way down she mentions the bladder issue. (she is a neurologist.) she cites several references for the use of ketamine in pain management/depression. she also sates that the amount of ketamine she uses to treat depression is much lower than the amount used in iv delivery. if you read all the way thru she questions the bladder issue you discuss. as with all medications there are risks. still, i think ketamine may lead to new meds for us suffering from depression.
>Since ketamine is a widely used "club drug," under the rubric Special K, I've been wondering why there has been so little evidence of experiments with its intra-nasal potential. All the studies I had previously come across involved i.v. administration, while all discussion of intranasal ingestion referred to "misuse" for the purpose of getting high. Since i.v. treatment is not practical for most of us, it's good to know at least a few doctors are examining the potential of oral and intranasal use.
I live in Mexico, where ketamine is available legally without prescription, but I've always been wary of trying it. A friend of my roommate used it to get high, and his behavior while under its influence made it seem both risky and not particularly appealing. Perhaps a much lower dosage is the key. Unfortunately, given the methodology I'm aware of for sniffing it, I wouldn't have a clue how to regulate the dosage to achieve a safe but effective level.
Posted by roversreturn on February 15, 2012, at 20:07:54
In reply to Re: Ketamine - bladder issues, posted by JohnLA on February 14, 2012, at 18:02:38
> hi rover-
>
> could you cite some references to this bladder issue?
>
> please take a look at this;
>
> http://painsandiego.com/2012/01/25/ketamine-intranasal-for-rapid-relief-of-pain-and-depression-opioids-fail-to-help-pain-care-reform-is-urgently-needed/
>
> about half-way down she mentions the bladder issue. (she is a neurologist.) she cites several references for the use of ketamine in pain management/depression. she also sates that the amount of ketamine she uses to treat depression is much lower than the amount used in iv delivery. if you read all the way thru she questions the bladder issue you discuss. as with all medications there are risks. still, i think ketamine may lead to new meds for us suffering from depression.
>
> there are several studies (some at the phase 2 level) trying out ketamine nasal spray for depression. let me know if you'd like me to site them.
>
> i'll keep you posted as i am going down to san diego in hopes of 'scoring' some ketamine nasal spray. ; )
>
> take care.
>
> john
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Ok this is a link to a news article on it
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/7867449.stm
and a study, albeit with a very small sample size.
http://www.hkmj.org/article_pdfs/hkm0708p311.pdf
As i said, I wouldn't discourage anyone suicidal from trying it out of desperation, although regular use could cause problems, but how big the risk is I really don't know.Good Luck
Rover
Posted by JohnLA on February 15, 2012, at 23:30:08
In reply to Re: Ketamine - bladder issues, posted by roversreturn on February 15, 2012, at 20:07:54
thanks rover.
appreciate you posting the links.
the amount used in the nasal spray is much less than used by drug addicts/abusers that are cited in the studies you posted.
the doc told me it's a very small percentage of what is need to get high.
thanks, too, for the 'good luck' wishes.
john
Posted by SLS on February 16, 2012, at 2:06:05
In reply to Re: Ketamine - bladder issues, posted by JohnLA on February 15, 2012, at 23:30:08
> thanks rover.
>
> appreciate you posting the links.
>
> the amount used in the nasal spray is much less than used by drug addicts/abusers that are cited in the studies you posted.
>
> the doc told me it's a very small percentage of what is need to get high.
>
> thanks, too, for the 'good luck' wishes.
>
> john
Are there any existing protocols for intranasal or oral administration if ketamine? I am still curious if intermittent administration with a larger dose is more effective than daily administration with small dosages. There is so much more work that needs to be done in this area. For instance, if one is suicidal, will the oral or intranasal routes for ketamine provide adequate therapeutic effect, or is a drug like Zyprexa a better answer for now?
- Scott
Posted by JohnLA on February 16, 2012, at 21:35:13
In reply to Re: Ketamine - bladder issues » JohnLA, posted by SLS on February 16, 2012, at 2:06:05
great questions scott.
i'm not sure of the answers. my totally non-medical opinion is that the iv would be used for severely depressed/suicidal people and the other 2 delivery methods would be more for those that are depressed, but treatment resistant.
again, i'm not a doctor so i really don't know.
i have made contact with 2 doctors who treat with ketamine. spoken with one who only does the nasal spray and sublingual delivery of ketamine. the other i have yet to speak with, only voicemail. i think he only does iv treatments. i'll try and get some more info from the 2nd doc.
the doctor i am seeing requires you to spend a week with her trying out different doses to find the correct dosage (nasally or sublingually). i see her next month.
i am tempted to drop some serious money (about $1000) and go to my shock doc at ucla and try the iv route. ironically, my last period of depression free symptoms was following sinus surgery. i had absolutely no depression for 3 or 4 days following the 1 hour surgery. i didn't ask, but i wonder if they used ketamine to put me out.
i'll do my best to keep you posted on what i find.
john
Posted by SLS on February 17, 2012, at 6:27:43
In reply to ketamine dosage, posted by JohnLA on February 16, 2012, at 21:35:13
Hi John.
> i'll do my best to keep you posted on what i find.
I'm sure the forum would be grateful if you did.
And...
Good luck!
- Scott
Posted by ed_uk2010 on February 17, 2012, at 13:50:12
In reply to ketamine dosage, posted by JohnLA on February 16, 2012, at 21:35:13
>I wonder if they used ketamine to put me out.
Probably not. Ketamine is not routinely used in anesthesiology. Most anesthetists only use it in special clinical situations.
Ketamine is widely used by veterinarians. A vet friend told me he finds it highly useful for cats! A cat on ketamine can tolerate anything.
Why does an injection of a low dose of a cheap drug cost you $1000? It this profiteering?
Posted by Phillipa on February 17, 2012, at 18:19:18
In reply to Re: ketamine dosage » JohnLA, posted by ed_uk2010 on February 17, 2012, at 13:50:12
Ed welcome to the US!!! PJx
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