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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by uncouth on February 1, 2012, at 11:59:16
hi,
i just started neurontin two nights ago for refractory insomnia that wasn't taken care of by AAPs, lunesta, etc. etc. The neurontin so far has helped a bit with keeping me a sleep. I take 300mg at night. Yesterday, after the first night, i felt OK, not great, but OK. But today I woke up and the depression which was mostly under control for the past 5 months came back. I woke up lethargic, mood lowered, pessimistic, the whole deal. I'm going to work out now, hopefully that will help, but I feel really slowed down too. Interestingly the first night i took 900mg and didn't feel like this when I woke up. What is going on? I don't want to take this drug if it makes the depression worse or foggies my thinking, is neurontin known for doing that? Does it antagonize norepinephrine or dopamine at all?Interestingly I have been trying phenibut as well over the past two weeks once in a while, and didn't feel this effect. I'm on such a low dose of neurontin why should it make me feel like this? I don't want to bug my pdoc I email him too often anyways.
Posted by uncouth on February 1, 2012, at 12:11:53
In reply to Neurontin causing depression!?, posted by uncouth on February 1, 2012, at 11:59:16
Oh yeah I'm wondering maybe this is rebound because of more slow-wave or deep sleep after not getting good sleep for months...would better deep sleep or something as a result of the neurontin cause anything like that???
Posted by b2chica on February 1, 2012, at 13:30:43
In reply to Neurontin causing depression!?, posted by uncouth on February 1, 2012, at 11:59:16
yes neurontin can cause slight depression or worsen what you have in some people. if i take it regularly and in lower doses it worsens. a friend of mine was on 100mg tid and it worsened her depression greatly so she had to quit it.
i think it depends on the person but it does have a history of doing this in some people.
b2c.
Posted by creepy on February 1, 2012, at 15:47:34
In reply to Neurontin causing depression!?, posted by uncouth on February 1, 2012, at 11:59:16
Could be you were a little hypo from the sleep deprivation? and getting some decent sleep has allowed the depression to seep in?
Could also be the neurontin. I think all the AEDs can potentially cause it.
If youve failed a bunch of hypnotics my guess is your doc will err on the side of making the neurontin work and will add something for depression.
Did you try any TCAs for sleep?
Posted by Phillipa on February 1, 2012, at 17:38:06
In reply to Re: Neurontin causing depression!?, posted by creepy on February 1, 2012, at 15:47:34
Is this the same as gabapentin? As neighbor takes it for sleep with xanax and feels good. Quit ad's about two years ago? Phillipa
Posted by uncouth on February 1, 2012, at 18:18:46
In reply to Re: Neurontin causing depression!?, posted by creepy on February 1, 2012, at 15:47:34
yes thats possibly right, the sleep deprivation does induce hypomania in me sometimes. i think the rebound sleep is doing something. i worked out a lot today, helped mood a bit, but I'm still really slowed down and sluggish. i tried trimipramine for sleep, didn't do it for me. i kept waking up but feeling tired. there is nothing more to add for depression, i'm already on bupropion, mirapex, paxil! and vyvanse and cameral now neurotonin sheesh way too many drugs.
Posted by bleauberry on February 2, 2012, at 5:19:21
In reply to Neurontin causing depression!?, posted by uncouth on February 1, 2012, at 11:59:16
Well, I don't know about anyone else, but when I take a new substance that makes me feel worse, I stop it. I might return to it weeks or months later, maybe even a third or fourth try at some point, just to see if anything has changed or to confirm and validate the bad effects were indeed direct action of the substance.
I think the whole approach to your insomnia could be done from a different angle. For example sake, let's assume something is haywire in the adrenal/thyroid circuits, which to me seems very likely. What would be needed is not stuff to calm things down, but stuff to force the feedback loops into action. That involves doing the opposite of what one would think.....MORE norepinephrine not less (as in maybe Savella), but even more important, CONTROLLED adrenaline. From that vantage point, the adaptogen herbs should be in your cocktail.....one of rhodiola, or siberian ginseng (eleuthero), or ashwaganda. Actually ashwaganda itself has some decent sedation to it as a side benefit.
Super low dose remeron is a potent sleep med....has to be in the 1mg to 7.5mg range, not higher.
Herbs to look at include various combinations of valerian root, passion flower, lemon balm, skullcap. Supplements to look at would include low dose GABA and/or 5htp, and glycine and magnesium are helpful also.
For your type of insomnia I do not believe any single substance is going to win the war. It will take a comprehensive approach from multiple directions, because the underlying problem itself whatever it is, is comprehensive and complicated.
Posted by uncouth on February 2, 2012, at 10:05:53
In reply to Re: Neurontin causing depression!?, posted by bleauberry on February 2, 2012, at 5:19:21
thanks for the post. by end of day yesterday i felt a little better after an intense workout, but still got tired by 7:30pm and the neurontin couldn't get me a sleep alone, i still needed a dose of saphris to initiate sleep and when i woke up at night. i've tried valerian but not on top of neurontin, i may try that again, i think its a good idea. i think my doctor thinks the problem is just too much thinking, i am SO SLEEPY and tired, not wired, its just i can't initiate sleep and keep waking up. last night i woke up a few times and woke up for good at 4:00am. i've tried phenibut as well but don't use that every day, though i figure that's just kinda doing the same thing as neurontin. i will ask the doctor if neurontin has any flexibility on my dose.
oh and about the adaptagens, i am already taking rhodiola, and occasionally take eleuthero. do you think eleuthero taken early in the day would help with sleep? i always thought maybe rhodiola was hurting sleep, but my mood seems notably better on it so i keep it, and when i've gone off of it at least a month ago it didn't impact sleep. what doses do you recommend for eleuthero, rhodiola. should i maybe switch out rhodiola for ashwagandha? what is the difference between rhodiola and ashwagandha in terms of effects? will ash be good for depression as well?
oh i also take 2g of l-tryptophan at night...god i'm sure my sleep architecture is so screwed up at this point. i don't dream either.
Posted by alchemy on February 3, 2012, at 19:06:13
In reply to Re: Neurontin causing depression!?, posted by creepy on February 1, 2012, at 15:47:34
everyone varies - but i do know someone that ended up having ect because of neurontin.
Posted by uncouth on February 3, 2012, at 19:08:15
In reply to Re: Neurontin causing depression!?, posted by alchemy on February 3, 2012, at 19:06:13
WHAT? why? how would neurontin do that
Posted by Phillipa on February 3, 2012, at 21:19:54
In reply to Re: Neurontin causing depression!?, posted by uncouth on February 3, 2012, at 19:08:15
Good question as also used for anxiety and nerve pain? Phillipa
Posted by phidippus on February 8, 2012, at 16:06:31
In reply to Re: Neurontin causing depression!?, posted by bleauberry on February 2, 2012, at 5:19:21
For the hard cases I recommend Thorazine. Nothing works better.
Eric
Posted by stewie on February 10, 2012, at 14:09:04
In reply to Neurontin causing depression!?, posted by uncouth on February 1, 2012, at 11:59:16
I am pretty sure that some of my darker days have been made worse by neurontin. I didn't guess this until I stopped using it to get high (taking very high doses), and started being honest with my doc. I have many fewer tablets every month, and have to keep it within 3000 mgs/day. (Before I sometimes went as high as 8000 mgs/day)
Well, I started feeling better when the dose was lower. I continue to take it because it helps more than anything else with anxiety for me.
So, that's me...
This is the end of the thread.
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