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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by uncouth on May 18, 2011, at 19:24:36
Hi all,
Over the past year, i've started to notice memory issues, both short and long-term. I've been posting to this board for years, off and on, and had a very tough time in 2008 and especially 2009, when I had ECT. Of course, at the time of the ECT, there were memory issues which cleared up a few months after, and at the time, I didn't notice any memory issues for current information, new information.
Well over the last year, that has changed. I find it increasingly noticable - it is hard to retain and recall new information, it requires more effort or time, and sometimes it doesn't happen at all. There are more "absent-minded" lapses. If i read something in the morning, by the evening I won't remember what I read, sometimes even broad details, or again, it will take a while to bring up. And longer-ago it was, the worse it gets. Little things and big things, I could go on and on. I'm not forgetting people, or major biographical facts, and *there is always the chance I am making this up for some reason, or overnoticing it*, but it has gotten to the point where I am disturbed and worried.
I am currently unemployed but hopefully will be back to work within the next month or so. I have been out of work for almost a year, and didn't notice (or have) this problem when I was last working. I don't know if it has to do with ECT or not, but I have read that bipolar disorder and depression are associated with memory loss in their own right, progressive.
What I want to ask is: has anyone else noticed this, and how noticable was it? Did it get progressively worse, and how worse? Most importantly, how are you dealing with it...how has it affected your life, your longer term memories, your ability to function in life, work, socially, etc.
I went to a top top school, always considered myself highly intelligent. I always just "picked up" things quickly, and didn't need to study too often for tests -- the knowledge was just there. So this is especially distressing to me. It's already affected my life recently, i totally missed a job interview on monday because everytime i was at my computer, I didn't remember to check when the interview was...example of absent mindedness. I Just picked up a package today, had no clue what it was, despite ordering something a few days ago. I'm sure if I sat and thought about it for 5 minutes it would come, but it wasn't immediate.
Anyway, i'm scared.
WHAT TO DO? Any meds help anyone? I've heard of the alzheiemers meds, galantamine, etc. helping. Has anyoen tried ANYTHING, meds or supplements, that have helped?
Does anyone have any theory on whether psych meds themselves cause memory issues? At first I thought the memory loss was from lamictal, which I was on last year, but i've been off of it for months and it's still here. Perhaps years of psych meds of all sorts have just done me in.
What to do, what to do? Help!
Thanks,
Uncouth
Posted by SLS on May 18, 2011, at 19:41:09
In reply to Memory loss - bipolar / depression, posted by uncouth on May 18, 2011, at 19:24:36
Many people with depression develop a decline in cognition and memory as time passes. Short term memory is particularly hard hit. For some people, depressed mood is absent. It sometimes happens that people blame ECT for memory impairments that are actually being caused by the depression.
Is your depression substantially better now that you feel capable of working?
- Scott
Posted by whitmore on May 18, 2011, at 20:37:59
In reply to Re: Memory loss - bipolar / depression » uncouth, posted by SLS on May 18, 2011, at 19:41:09
I have found huperzine and vinpocetine to be useful. Both are supplements so OTC, but have some research behind them. I have Lyme disease and my memory and focus vary from day to day, week to week. I am in a demanding job and thank god for all the electronic calendars and devices that can be used so that I can 'outsource' my memory!
Posted by uncouth on May 18, 2011, at 20:59:19
In reply to Re: Memory loss - bipolar / depression » uncouth, posted by SLS on May 18, 2011, at 19:41:09
hi scott,
depression is much better, but of course nothing close to full remission. i have been meaning to post about my experience on PB the last few months, maybe will make a separate one. the short of it is that I started on Tegretol (carbamazepine), and it had a profound effect on my *depression*, starting at a pretty low dose. I am BP2. lithium, lamictal, and even mostly all antipsychotics with the exception of zyprexa and high dose saphris never worked as quickly or as effectively to stabilize my depressed mood. what i now realize is that what i have been calling "depression" takes various forms, and most recently (maybe most often) it is characterized by tortured thoughts, coming at me, all the time...i'm sure many people here know what i'm talking about. that, and almost physical anxiety/pain in the torso area. of course its hard to describe. i wasn't at all hypomanic since last year, but perhaps what i was in this whole time was a mixed state. doctor chose carb. because i came presenting 6 weeks ago telling him I felt like there was a "storm" in my mind, and there wasn't "space" for anything else. carbamazepine is used for temporal lobe epilepsy, and there was research in teh 80s (but not so much recently I don't think) about the link between temporal lobe epilepsy and mood disorders. perhaps that has been my issue the whole time, essentially constant seizure activity deep in limbic regions that was immediately responsive to carbamazepine, uniquely (not lithium,not really lamictal though maybe a tiny bit, and not 4 years of atypical antipsychotics of all varieties). i am very thankful to feel some relief for the first time in a long time, and some stability, but there is still this emptyness, and other syptoms of depression/bp2 that are still present. and of course, now that i'm feeling better, i am left with a life that has been ravaged by years of depression and mood instability. lost social relationships, insecurity, memory issues, unemployment, money issues, no real career to speak of, personal embarassment from things i did while hypomanic last year, etc. but i'm hoping with some extended period of stability, at least something like stability or relief, i can move forward. optimism and hopefullness and ambition aren't quite there yet, but again, i'm thankful for the relief of the torment, and not having to focus on the pain every single moment of every single day opened up so much "space" for other things...reading, interests, etc.
so i'm "so so" but thankful for even that at this point. now, just to find my ambition and optimism...maybe it's somewhere around here!
uncouthi> Many people with depression develop a decline in cognition and memory as time passes. Short term memory is particularly hard hit. For some people, depressed mood is absent. It sometimes happens that people blame ECT for memory impairments that are actually being caused by the depression.
>
> Is your depression substantially better now that you feel capable of working?
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by Phillipa on May 18, 2011, at 22:21:49
In reply to Re: Memory loss - bipolar / depression » SLS, posted by uncouth on May 18, 2011, at 20:59:19
Uncouth great news that depression better and planning on working. Recently I'm seeing a neurosurgeon for a back problem but it seems he's uncovering some things that don't relate to the back but to psychological things first by ruling stuff out this doc is great. Another MRI tomorrow. But he and his large group deal with mind and seizure problems also. Give a google to Carolina Neurosurgery and Spinal Center in Charlotte, NC. Their website also lists a lot of trials they are running some for the mind. I didn't check those out. You never know? Phillipa
Posted by SLS on May 19, 2011, at 2:30:16
In reply to Re: Memory loss - bipolar / depression » SLS, posted by uncouth on May 18, 2011, at 20:59:19
Hi Uncouth.
I wish you nothing but the best. You are obviously a survivor, and your tireless efforts to attain health are recognized.
Just in case you were unaware, Tegretol can negatively affect memory and cognition.
- Scott
> hi scott,
>
> depression is much better, but of course nothing close to full remission. i have been meaning to post about my experience on PB the last few months, maybe will make a separate one. the short of it is that I started on Tegretol (carbamazepine), and it had a profound effect on my *depression*, starting at a pretty low dose. I am BP2. lithium, lamictal, and even mostly all antipsychotics with the exception of zyprexa and high dose saphris never worked as quickly or as effectively to stabilize my depressed mood. what i now realize is that what i have been calling "depression" takes various forms, and most recently (maybe most often) it is characterized by tortured thoughts, coming at me, all the time...i'm sure many people here know what i'm talking about. that, and almost physical anxiety/pain in the torso area. of course its hard to describe. i wasn't at all hypomanic since last year, but perhaps what i was in this whole time was a mixed state. doctor chose carb. because i came presenting 6 weeks ago telling him I felt like there was a "storm" in my mind, and there wasn't "space" for anything else. carbamazepine is used for temporal lobe epilepsy, and there was research in teh 80s (but not so much recently I don't think) about the link between temporal lobe epilepsy and mood disorders. perhaps that has been my issue the whole time, essentially constant seizure activity deep in limbic regions that was immediately responsive to carbamazepine, uniquely (not lithium,not really lamictal though maybe a tiny bit, and not 4 years of atypical antipsychotics of all varieties). i am very thankful to feel some relief for the first time in a long time, and some stability, but there is still this emptyness, and other syptoms of depression/bp2 that are still present. and of course, now that i'm feeling better, i am left with a life that has been ravaged by years of depression and mood instability. lost social relationships, insecurity, memory issues, unemployment, money issues, no real career to speak of, personal embarassment from things i did while hypomanic last year, etc. but i'm hoping with some extended period of stability, at least something like stability or relief, i can move forward. optimism and hopefullness and ambition aren't quite there yet, but again, i'm thankful for the relief of the torment, and not having to focus on the pain every single moment of every single day opened up so much "space" for other things...reading, interests, etc.
>
> so i'm "so so" but thankful for even that at this point. now, just to find my ambition and optimism...maybe it's somewhere around here!
> uncouth
>
> i> Many people with depression develop a decline in cognition and memory as time passes. Short term memory is particularly hard hit. For some people, depressed mood is absent. It sometimes happens that people blame ECT for memory impairments that are actually being caused by the depression.
> >
> > Is your depression substantially better now that you feel capable of working?
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
>
Posted by bleauberry on May 19, 2011, at 16:55:11
In reply to Memory loss - bipolar / depression, posted by uncouth on May 18, 2011, at 19:24:36
My memory was significantly impacted during ECT. But also from something else, likely Lyme. It isn't getting better, but at least it isn't getting worse. Yet. Aging is aging and there is no way to stay young.
Life itself is a continuous state of biological deterioration, no matter whether we can point a finger at an identifiable cause or not.
I think the hardest thing for anyone to do is accept what it is and do the best under the restrictions. I was a straight A student all through high school and college, hardly even had to study, graduated at top of class. If I had to go back and do it all over again, I would probably have to study really hard to just be a C+ or B- student. Yeah it sucks. But you know, we gotta put one foot in front of the other, move forward, and not let a change of life status deter our spirit. I have learned to adjust. I write myself notes. I double check something before I finalize it, such as transactions, car keys in pocket, whatever might mess me up. I'm really bad with names. Real bad. So that's a tough one. I have accepted the reality that my nervous system will never be what it was 10 years ago, 20 years ago, whatever. I try to do things to improve it or at least stop it from getting worse. But it will never be what it was. I think once someone fully grasps reality and the fact that life circumstances have changed, the problem becomes smaller and not as serious of an issue as it seems before they grasp it and accept it.
I guess everyone's chemistry is different so the things that might help will be different. In the Lyme circles some of the things written about to help are LDN, Huperzine, and the plants that are basically super powerful antioxidants, toxin binders, and nerve protectors. Some things are claimed to be nerve repairers. One of them happens to be St Johns Wort. Its nerve healing properties and antiviral properties are, in my opinion, probably much more pronounced than its mood properties. Plants do a lot of stuff with their dozens of active ingredients, only a few of which we have studied.
In terms of helpful meds, certain substances within the norepinephrine spectrum seem to be very helpful to me. My memory got a lot better about 2 weeks into Milnacipran for example. Immediate profound help comes from Ritalin. Vicadin also. I have a theory with that one that it helps so much because toxins have a high affinity for opioid receptors....vicadin gives them competition and occupies the receptor with stronger affinity than the toxin.
The choline strategies are supposedly helpful but I haven't tried them. I think Huperzine fits into that, though it does other stuff too.
Ginkgo biloba and some other less popular Chinese herbs have a fairly good body of science backing them in terms of memory and brain function. Those that don't have lots of science have thousands of years of actual usage backing them. That doesn't happen unless they actually do what is claimed.
Disease itself will cause progression of the problem. The difficulty there is that we probably don't know what the disease is. It is probably subtle, hidden, deceptive, and not easily or accurately tested. Any number of bacteria or viruses could be at play. Of course I could mention Lyme, of which memory loss and brain fog are major issues, but there are a variety of other similar organisms guilty of the same type of behavior.
Only the best foods, organic, no trace amounts of pesticides or herbicides, lots of greenery....specific supplements for protection, healing, and regeneration....exercising the mind....these kinds of things are in my opinion our best guns for the fight.
We live in a toxic world. Just a little bit of mercury, lead, cadmium, aluminum, etc, or some chronic low level infectious organism excreting nerve toxins in its normal living, these kinds of things send out massive tidal waves of oxidation. Large doses of vitamin C are hardly any match for the kind of insult we are exposed to. Other plants are more potent. Of course, suppressing any potential offenders is a worthy way of approaching that.
And there is inflammation, or blood flow restriction.
One particular plant that seems to cover a lot of the bases I have mentioned here is Japanese Knotweed, primarily from its high resveratrol content but other ingredients also.
Spirituality is extremely important as well, I feel. I happen to be Christian and I can say without a doubt that my faith in Jesus gives me strength where I am weak.
So as I see it, the whole memory loss thing is not a med issue, a herb issue, a food choice issue, a supplement issue, inflammation, infection, metals, aging, or whatever.....it is all of them. A comprehensive plan that covers all the bases helps significantly. But....we can never turn back the clock. Once we grasp that, we take control of "it" rather than "it" taking control of us.
Back to the spiritual side....the world is ruled by demons....for a time that is. Thank Adam and Eve for that. The doors were opened for illness and death, tools the demons rely heavily on. Demons are massively powerful, not the power of God, but a lot more than us. They are invisible enemies who have two goals: 1)to render you ineffective in fighting evil, 2)to make sure you never see heaven. As long as we are drowning in our symptoms or illnesses and not talking to Jesus all the time, evil triumphs. Their goals are met. They win, we lose. So not matter how bad things get, keep the thoughts focused on what really counts...a life with no evil and no illness, a life that is forever, a life that is so profound that our brains cannot even begin to comprehend. With all that in mind, I reluctantly take the memory loss kind of like a boxer would take a powerful punch that lands him on the canvas for a moment, but my focus is my knockout win in the end.
Well, what about someone who has had a perfect life? Great career, great spouse, lots of money, great health....those things are also tools of the demons....they distract from what really matters. So you see, while you are suffering from symptoms, someone else has a perfect life, both can potentially be huge distractions that land the person in a bad place forever and ever.
And of course, the pure reality is, we will never be what we were yesterday. Our physical biology deteriorates no matter what.
Could there be something good about memory loss? Well, God has a way of taking anything evil and turning it around to be good. Right now I'm trying to think of examples to illustrate but I'm coming up blank. I do know however, you or me would not be the first to ever take a troubling crippling symptom and somehow do something great despite it, something great we never would have been able to do without it.
Anyway, since this is a meds board....norepinephrine, dopamine, choline, endorphins. Those are the areas I would be looking at. Between prayers of course. :-)
Posted by floatingbridge on May 19, 2011, at 20:07:47
In reply to Memory loss - bipolar / depression, posted by uncouth on May 18, 2011, at 19:24:36
uncouth,
Finding something that works on your symptoms is great news. Yes, then there is all that deferred life maintenance.
:-/I can repeat advice given me: find brain nurturing supplements and foods like fish, fish oils. I am not familiar with the
two otc meds mentioned above, but yes. Exercise--mild, just mild not even intense. Brain gyms or mental exercises have shown improvement in adults.I know this is a rehash of common sense, and I suppose my point is to work to support your total brain health while seeking further answers. Noticing a decline in cognitive function is painful, and I imagine for someone like yourself who has a high level of functionality to refer back to. I'm sorry. I wish I had something more substantial to offer you.
Have you spoken to your doc about
memory issues? Sometimes neuro-psychologists can aid cognitive recovery by diagnosising possible malfunctioning brain regions. Knowing what areas that could be helpful in choosing supplements and in selecting brain therapy exercises. (It costs $$$ unless one has good insurance :-/ but it is out there.)I hope you soon reach some 'tipping point' in your recovery with this issue.
Thanks for posting.
Posted by Phillipa on May 19, 2011, at 20:14:18
In reply to Re: Memory loss - bipolar / depression, posted by bleauberry on May 19, 2011, at 16:55:11
My experiences have been different as in high school was a B C student. Stayed home til 30's then went back to school and got straight A's except a B in microbiology. Reason being the teacher had students eating valiums in the hall so decided it wasn't worth it and to take a B. But graduated RN school Magna c*m Laude. Full scholarships too. Clepped both Englishes. And at the time had been on valium for over l0 years. I feel the reason I did well and memory good was I loved the schooling and back patting. Was fun. Phillipa
Posted by jaclinhyde on May 22, 2011, at 21:48:26
In reply to Memory loss - bipolar / depression, posted by uncouth on May 18, 2011, at 19:24:36
Ambien is a true memory thief. Rozerem works with melatonin so is a MUCH better choice for sleep.
This is the end of the thread.
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